If you had to choose 1 aspect of toughness, is it defense based or resistance based?

[DrBasics]

This is just me trying to get opinions and it is sort of a "game". The catch here is that hybrids don't fully count. So if you like Invuln, you would have to pretend as if it only had the defense powers (or only the resist powers). Same with other hybrids like shield. That being said, please take everything else in the powerset into account. Like if it has a great heal, shields, incredible mez protection, etc.

 

Lets have some fun with a tanker discussion.

Edited August 2, 2020 by DrBasics

[BasherBot]

What about sets like Bio Armor and Regeneration which have mostly healing powers and limited defense and resist powers?

[DrBasics]

13 minutes ago, BasherBot said:

What about sets like Bio Armor and Regeneration which have mostly healing powers and limited defense and resist powers?

Then you would only focus on the pure regen of the power set, plus one aspect, either defense of resistance, not both.

[BasherBot]

5 minutes ago, DrBasics said:

Then you would only focus on the pure regen of the power set, plus one aspect, either defense of resistance, not both.

So, in other words, Regen tankers are not allowed in this conversation, gotcha 😛

[Infinitum]

2 minutes ago, BasherBot said:

So, in other words, Regen tankers are not allowed in this conversation, gotcha 😛

Seeing as how they dont exist.....

[BasherBot]

2 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

Seeing as how they dont exist.....

I was thinking of Brutes, my bad XD

[Bopper]

If its a tank or brute and I can cap most of the damage types, give me resists all day. Anything else, defense.

[Werner]

Resistance. A Super Reflexes Tank without any resists, including the scaling resists, will get killed by the RNG. A Radiation Tank without any defense should still be solid and predictable, if a bit vulnerable to status effects.

[Crater Kate]

So wait. Are my options a real defense based set versus a resist based set? Ie, Super Reflexes versus Electric? Or is this a hypothetical, "if you had to choose only one which would it be"?

 

Because if I can only cap one and have to forfeit the other entirely, I am capping Defense every time. 

 

Yes, defense can get RNG'd to death. But defense has three strengths that make it significantly better than resist in a vacuum:

• Capped defense on average lets through half as much damage as capped resists
• All resists, no defense gets shredded by debuffs, where all defense, no resists does not. A debuff that doesn't hit you can't affect you at all!
• Defense debuff resistance exists, where resistance debuff... resistance... does not

All this together makes the average performance of defense a lot sturdier better versus debuffs, but a lot more volatile over small sample sizes. Yes, sometimes you're going to be running a Tinpex and fighting Bobcat, and Bobcat is going to hit you not once, not twice in a row, not thrice in a row, not four times in a row, but five times in a row when she HAD to hit you five times CONSECUTIVELY at a floored 10.5% for you to actually die, which is nearly a 1 in ONE HUNDRED THOUSAND - (no, this is a random example, why do you ask?) 

 

Yes, those times do happen. But over long stretches of time that'll balance out and defense will impress much more by itself.

 

Of course, things don't exist in a vacuum. Many resist sets pack healing tools defense sets could only dream of. Some of them layer enough stuff where they truly become unkillable, where the defense sets will still risk the wrath of the dice gods.

 

It all depends what you're really asking 🙂

Edited August 7, 2020 by Crater Kate

[Bopper]

1 hour ago, Crater Kate said:

• Capped defense on average lets through half as much damage as capped resists
• All resists, no defense gets shredded by debuffs, where all defense, no resists does not. A debuff that doesn't hit you can't affect you at all!
• Defense debuff resistance exists, where resistance debuff... resistance... does not

The first and third bullets are incorrect. 90% resistance reduces incoming damage to 10%. Softcap defense reduces the incoming damage from 50% base chance to 5% base chance (most accuracy modifiers will scale the same, so no need to factor that in). That effectively reduces incoming damage to 10%. So softcapped defense and capped resistance is the same amount of mitigation. However, if we're talking about incarnate content and hitting softcapped incarnate defenses (58.75%), then defense wins out.

 

For the last bullet, Resistance is its own resistance debuff resistance (and damage debuff resistance). So having 90% resistance means any resistance debuffs you take (and damage debuffs you take), you will reduce 90% of its effect.

Edited August 3, 2020 by Bopper

[Werner]

1 hour ago, Crater Kate said:

Capped defense on average lets through half as much damage as capped resists

You may be thinking of the rule of thumb that every point of defense is worth two of resist. But we're comparing 45% defense to 90% resistance, so twice as many points of resistance. Soft cap defense and hard cap resistance will average the same against garden-variety enemies.

 

Let's say we're standing there letting an even level boss pound on us. Let's say it does 1000 points of damage in a hit to keep things simple. The boss has 50% to hit and a 1.3x accuracy modifier for being a boss. 

 

The chance of hitting our soft capped, no resistance Tanker is 1.3 * (50% - 45%) = 6.5%. 1000 points of damage hitting 6.5% of the time averages 65 damage. No resistance, so that's our final average.

 

The chance of hitting our resistance capped, no defense Tanker is 1.3 * (50% - 0%) = 65%. 1000 hit points of damage hitting 65% of the time averages 650 damage. However, we have 90% resistance, so we only take 10% of that damage, which is 65 damage.

 

1 hour ago, Crater Kate said:

All resists, no defense gets shredded by debuffs, where all defense, no resists does not. A debuff that doesn't hit you can't affect you at all!

True, but I do my best to address debuffs in my actual builds. So for instance, my Dark Armor Tanker has 86.5% endurance, recovery, and to-hit debuff resistance, along with 80% recharge debuff resistance. The main remaining problem is then defense and resistance debuffs. Barrier Core is my answer to both of those. But what's allowed and not seems vague, so maybe I'm cheating by assuming I'll have the debuffs covered in one way or another since that's how I build. If we're allowed to have defense debuff resistance, but no other resistance, that clearly favors defense.

 

1 hour ago, Crater Kate said:

Defense debuff resistance exists, where resistance debuff... resistance... does not

Yes and no. There's no explicit thing called "resistance debuff resistance", but resistance itself resists resistance debuffs. Defense is still superior in this regard though because not only does it have defense debuff resistance, but you have to hit to apply the defense debuff in the first place, as you already mentioned. If we're including DDR, and I suppose we are, then if an enemy is spamming equal amounts of defense and resistance debuffs, the average performance of pure defense with DDR is better than the average performance of pure resistance. Resistance debuffs seem a lot more rare in game, but I'd still agree that the existence of explicit DDR does favor defense.

Edited August 3, 2020 by Werner

[Werner]

1 hour ago, Bopper said:

For the last bullet, Resistance is its own resistance debuff resistance (and damage debuff resistance). So having 90% resistance means any resistance debuffs you take (and damage debuffs you take), you will reduce 90% of its effect.

Yes, but on the soft cap build, a resistance debuff is only going to land 10% as often. I realize you didn't claim otherwise, but I want to be clear about how that affects the outcome. Hit 10% as often with the debuff vs. taking 10% of the debuff averages the same, and the average damage taken in subsequent hits will thus remain comparable. (edit: I think I’m wrong, see below) It's just much more subject to the whims of the RNG with defense.

Edited August 3, 2020 by Werner

[Bopper]

35 minutes ago, Werner said:

Yes, but on the soft cap build, a resistance debuff is only going to land 10% as often. I realize you didn't claim otherwise, but I want to be clear about how that affects the outcome. Hit 10% as often with the debuff vs. taking 10% of the debuff averages the same, and the average damage taken in subsequent hits will thus remain comparable. It's just much more subject to the whims of the RNG with defense.

I agree. It is a good thing to bring up, and I appreciate that you clarified that. You are more susceptible to being hit with debuffs which is mentioned in Crater's 2nd bullet which I fully agreed with.

 

I was not staking claim to which was better, just clarifying that resistance debuff resistance is certainly a thing and provided an example as well as adding a seldom known factoid that your damage resistance is also your damage debuff resistance. I dont know if damage debuffs are common in the game, but if you face it, you can rest assured your damage resistance is helping keep up your offense as well as your defense.

[Werner]

2 minutes ago, Bopper said:

I agree. It is a good thing to bring up, and I appreciate that you clarified that. You are more susceptible to being hit with debuffs which is mentioned in Crater's 2nd bullet which I fully agreed with.

And now that I’m thinking more about it, maybe I’m wrong. Or only half right, and it’s the weak half. 90% resistance hit with a 100% debuff is 80% resistance taking twice as much damage. 0% resistance hit with a 100% debuff is -100% resistance taking twice as much damage. But if the 0% resistance is only getting hit 10% as often, the average would be a 10% debuff, but that’s averaging only 1.1x the damage rather than 2x the damage. So I think I was wrong to say that “average damage taken in subsequent hits will remain comparable.” Both average a 10% debuff, but that’s the net debuff, so it affects one much more than the other. I think I got confused by the idea that a 10% debuff does the same subsequent damage boost in % regardless of the initial damage resistance, but that’s true only if that’s the initial, unresisted buff. After resistance, if what gets through averages 10%, that has a very different effect.

[Sir Myshkin]

 

I'll take a Resistance Tanker please, and since IO's weren't taken off the table...

[Parabola]

The other thing about pure defence that often gets left out of discussions is that enemies exist that punch right through it with autohit attacks or massive tohit buffing. This is a serious problem that no amount of ddr can help with. I'm not sure the equivalent exists for resistance? I don't think anything simply ignores it?

 

I used to firmly believe that defence was the better protection because of the avoidance of debuffs inherent in it but now I've realised the value in simply having broad resistance hard caps. It helps that the mostly pure resistance sets tend to have built in debuff protection and this can be built upon with things like focused accuracy and ageless radial.

[Crater Kate]

Thank you @Bopperand @Wernerfor setting me straight. I definitely brainfarted on the base 50% to-hit. But I had no idea that resist protected itself like that! You learn something new every day.

[Infinitum]

3 hours ago, parabola said:

I'm not sure the equivalent exists for resistance? I don't think anything simply ignores it?

There are damage types that are unresistable.  The blue death swords of The Apex is one.

 

I may be wrong here too but I'm pretty sure the -heal blast of the Hami is also.

[Parabola]

1 hour ago, Infinitum said:

There are damage types that are unresistable.  The blue death swords of The Apex is one.

 

I may be wrong here too but I'm pretty sure the -heal blast of the Hami is also.

Ah right yes of course; completely untyped damage. Presumably they go straight through defences too unless they happen to be stamped with vectors?

[Sovera]

5 hours ago, parabola said:

The other thing about pure defence that often gets left out of discussions is that enemies exist that punch right through it with autohit attacks or massive tohit buffing. This is a serious problem that no amount of ddr can help with. I'm not sure the equivalent exists for resistance? I don't think anything simply ignores it?

 

I used to firmly believe that defence was the better protection because of the avoidance of debuffs inherent in it but now I've realised the value in simply having broad resistance hard caps. It helps that the mostly pure resistance sets tend to have built in debuff protection and this can be built upon with things like focused accuracy and ageless radial.

My Bio Scrappers are touch and go on the last boss of the ITF. The auto-hit takes a chunk of HP from my measly 30% E/N resists. I'll use Ablative, the next auto-hit shaves it off. I'll use DNA Siphon to heal, the next auto-hit takes a chunk off. Then it's a game of sparingly using greens until those two clickies get off CD.

 

Usually there is always someone with a heal who can offset this, be it Time or Rad or a Kin, but it can be touch and go if they get downed or are distracted by the ambushes.

 

Or I just go with my tank and 90% resists and AFK taking both the boss and the auto-hit fluffy and not even notice.

 

I'm starting to think I ought to change Barrier for the version of it with DDR. The plan I usually make is to use Barrier on CD so that the last 5% top my defense 100% of the time. In actual game practice I run around with 40% defense and never bother using it except when I see team mates losing HP or I know an ambush is coming. What I usually use it is to combat my defense being debuffed by adding a ton of it as a buffer. If that's the case I could just use the DDR version since that is its purpose anyway.

[Neiska]

I am by no means an expert, but this is how I kind what I have experienced -

 

Resistance focused - Solo play, you can still get a respectable 25-30% defense while being resistance capped, which is plenty for all the solo content I have done. Plus, on a team, everyone and their grandmother takes maneuvers and so on so your defense will be higher anyway.

 

Defense focused - Solo play, no real issues. You might take a hard alpha strike now and then, but, its never caused me to use my big tanker buttons. Team play, many team buff toggles do me little good as I am already at the softcap.

 

Bio - I do enjoy Bio. Its different! And I like the style, as its effective against nearly everything I have come across. My only complains are its very much an "endgame" set, and it is a bit more clicky than I like.

 

Just my two cents. I rank Resistance first, Bio second, Defense third. There just seems to be more common defense buffs on teams, than resist buffs.

Edited August 3, 2020 by Neiska
for clarification!

[drbuzzard]

17 hours ago, BasherBot said:

What about sets like Bio Armor and Regeneration which have mostly healing powers and limited defense and resist powers?

Odd, my bio armor tanker has capped l/s resistance and softcapped e,ne,f,c as well. Not really sure what's limited.

[marcussmythe]

1 hour ago, Neiska said:

Bio - I do enjoy Bio. Its different! And I like the style, as its effective against nearly everything I have come across. My only complains are its very much an "endgame" set, and it is a bit more clicky than I like.

 

Just my two cents. I rank Resistance first, Bio second, Defense third. There just seems to be more common defense buffs on teams, than resist buffs.

An aside - I love my Bio right up until I hit Vanguard or PPD-Awakened.  Bio's poor energy resistance, coupled with no DDR on its Energy Defense, means that those two groups cut through it like a (ahem) laser - cascade collapse and Ive seen it go from 'Im fine' to 'def and res are showing red on the monitor' to 'faceplant' in a second.  Very disorienting when it happens.

 

Of course, that lack of DDR is basically the only vulnerability the set has, and a cycling ageless can cover it to a large degree.  Bio is very, very, very good.

[Xanatos]

Resistance.

 

Because streakbreaker and other autohit mechanics exist, and more enemies do -def than -res.

[BasherBot]

3 hours ago, drbuzzard said:

Odd, my bio armor tanker has capped l/s resistance and softcapped e,ne,f,c as well. Not really sure what's limited.

mainly because BA has only 2 resistance powers and 1 defense power... where as it has 4 powers that heal or adsorb in some form. 

Edited August 3, 2020 by BasherBot