State of the Project - August 2020

[Darmian]

Redside needs more international politics.  If we take Cuba as an analog, Arachnos is the government, UN recognized and all. So there should be some plans in the making for 2024, the 60th anniversary of the "Revolution" that ushered in the Rule of Lord Recluse.

 

Just a thought. A game can be "bigger" without needing a world ending event.

[Errants]

 As a red main (started blue, love red more), I'd like to answer a few of your points. TLDR - give Redside a try again? 

8 hours ago, Hew said:

3. Travel in the zones by and large SUCKED. Travel in Mercy was HORRIBLE (as a noob). Travel in Grandville is still gack. Travel in the one with the islands way up north with Caleb is ALSO horrible (unless flight on auto for several minutes is your thing).

  Mercy was revamped, and is much smoother for a native lowbie. GV does suck w/o flight... however, base TP makes that very smooth, since most mission doors can be better accessed off the central corridor. Nerva (Caleb zone) has the same issues as IP (huge size) and Perez Park (unmapped forest maze with no holes to jump/fly through). I'll agree with you on Nerva, but I'd argue the ferry system and fewer zones overall makes redside easier to navigate than blue. Mission layouts are much more forgiving, too... as there's only 7 zones to blue's 18, you run around in zone more, and through zones less. Granted, I tend to slot at least a Stealth IO in every toon, but between Ninja/Beast Run + Jump Pack, the only zones I've issues in movement are the 4 SS, and sometimes high doors in GV.

8 hours ago, Hew said:

4. Generally, things were much harder as a villain content wise, than wussy blue side kill freaks/council/whatever you get at low-mid levels. With redside you get : arachnos (the noob arachnos are still tough), legacy chain, wyvernwhatevers, longbow. That is a whole lot of not fun.

  So, I've been doing an experiment - I've rolled each AT on the "wrong" side, and been playing through content (missions, TF's, etc). Either the redside AT's are stronger (doubtful, AT's are fairly balanced) or redside has harder mobs (more believable - they have more varied damage types, more status effects and at lower levels. This is actually highlighted even more in Praetoria. Gold side mobs are harder at level than blue or red groups... With the exception of Vanguard - they're sucky for everyone). My leveling experience has been much easier on blueside with the red AT's. (note, Stalkers on Blue are hilarious! Content was NOT designed for players to be sneaky)

8 hours ago, Hew said:

5. Redside ATs were largely solo friendly to various degrees (considering their power sets, at functions, and layered capabilities), which meant you had more people on solo or small teams than large crazy blueside teams, cause hey, it just worked.

Agreed, Red AT's are much more self-contained. I've noticed an interesting trend on that, both Legacy and Live... While Blue teams tend to pick and choose, recruiting AT's or even powersets, commonly requiring minimum levels for non-TF content - I don't see the same thing Red. Might be the more self-sufficiency, might be the different attitude of being a villain, might be the "holy crap, I don't have to solo!" effect... but most red teams I see recruiting don't have a requirement other than don't leech.

8 hours ago, Hew said:

6. The redside market sucked because it was redside specific, and you didnt have it pumped full of blueside stuff. This lead to a lot of difficulty building chars 😕

Long since eliminated when they merged markets back on Legacy. The issues there was the paucity of both population and resources... Younger faction, less players, less overall stuff moving around. Fortunately, with the market/currency mergers, that issue is totally gone. My Inf is Inf, blue, red, or gold.

Anyhow, yes, I'd love for more content for redside, and a larger draw for people. Would also love more selfish missions/arcs, vs being evil for someone else's benefit. Lastly, can we get TF's to match the FPR's ranges? No 10-15, and no 30-35!

[Darmian]

While this Redside discussion is ongoing, and this may have been mentioned elsewhere (and perhaps some PVP players will dislike this) but (a) reclaiming one of the Red PVP zones as a PVE zone, my choice would be Bloody Bay, and (b) perhaps upping the strength of the three nukes so that, as it was pre Incarnate powers, it's really worth going to Warburg again. Originally I wanted those nuke powers, now I just got them because I wanted the badge and haven't been back since really, which is a pity because Warburg is a great area.

 

Siren's Call isn't Redside, and frankly I'm not sure what you'd do with it right now.  Recluse's Victory remains THE PVP area of choice obviously, due to the levels.

 

As per my suggestion above re a 60th Anniversary of the Glorious Revolution, perhaps Bloody Bay could be reclaimed?

[LQT]

On 8/21/2020 at 11:58 AM, Piecemeal said:

It is one small step for man, one giant step for cyborgs.

Giant death robots stomping Paragon confirmed!
 

On 8/21/2020 at 12:42 PM, Wavicle said:

Whatever you have to tell yourself to sleep at night. 🤣

Lines isn't wrong though.

 

Crusaders repeatedly attempt to bomb civilian targets despite the losses it would cause.

Wardens are trying to uncover more info without causing more damage to the city. This includes stopping Crusader plans relating to the aforementioned bombings.

 

Powers are mostly making sure they are the one in the spotlight and even then the closest they come to how redside is regarding that is some of the dialogue options with Dr Hetzfeld after said doctor screws up and the player "takes control" of what the missions will involve.

 

Responsibility arcs are about stopping threats to the city/Praetoria at large, the Syndicate being the one that recurs the most, while also investigating other threats like PPD corruption, the Clockwork malfunctions/Metronome, Longbow/Arachnos invasions.
 

On 8/21/2020 at 12:30 PM, Lines said:

SWTOR is an interesting case. I think the population is quite well split between Republic and Empire (I don't have numbers to back up this claim. Edit: A quick google says in 2016 it was 60% Empire and 40% Republic, at least in PvP) even though the Empire is fairly overtly evil. Maybe that an Imperial player can make good moral choices and experiment with their morality despite the Empire's evil makes it more accessible. I'd have quite liked to have seen this in CoH's Redside, where a player has more choice to try to fight the system and make a positive impact.

Can attest to this. My main in SWTOR was a Lightside Sith Warrior:Juggernaut and most of my Imps were LS. It makes the story extremely interesting with no "evil just for evil's sake". Just making choices on what would end up being the best for both myself and The Empire. The number of npc deaths that you end up with going DS is exactly the reason Imps repeatedly lose conflicts more to infighting than in actual open conflict with Pub forces.

 

Similar situation with other Imp toons like my SI:Assassin who ended up with the ingame title of Darth Imperius [LS] for working towards goals that benefited the Empire and not just myself [which would have been Darth Nox [DS], or even Darth Occlus [neutral]. Again many DS choices put the Empire in a worse situation strategically because of the infighting.

 

Interestingly enough the BH LS options still include killing targets as the alternative DS option is to bring someone in alive who knows after they are handed over they are going to be tortured, so the LS decision is to prevent that. Having said that, some of the DS choices are hilarious: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_WrCGMfNg7o&feature=youtu.be&t=29

Imperial Agent is the most diverse regarding alignment options due to how many different things can affect it throughout the 3 chapters. It's rightly so considered the best story in the game by many players regardless of how you end up.

 

[Wavicle]

3 minutes ago, LQT said:

Crusaders repeatedly attempt to bomb civilian targets despite the losses it would cause.

Wardens are trying to uncover more info without causing more damage to the city. This includes stopping Crusader plans relating to the aforementioned bombings.

 

Powers are mostly making sure they are the one in the spotlight and even then the closest they come to how redside is regarding that is some of the dialogue options with Dr Hetzfeld after said doctor screws up and the player "takes control" of what the missions will involve.

 

Responsibility arcs are about stopping threats to the city/Praetoria at large, the Syndicate being the one that recurs the most, while also investigating other threats like PPD corruption, the Clockwork malfunctions/Metronome, Longbow/Arachnos invasions.

 

 

The Resistance

Warden

The Wardens, while opposed to Cole, hold life to be valuable. They make every attempt to reach their goals with as little loss of life as possible. This is not to say that they will not kill, but for the Wardens it is more of a last resort.

Crusader

The Crusaders are more extreme than the Wardens. They believe in winning the fight at any cost, regardless of how many lives it costs. Many of The Crusaders are motivated by revenge, others simply see killing as a means to an end. Most of them believe that they are fighting for a good cause and do not view themselves as evil, but some of them care little about the true cause of the Resistance, and use it merely as an excuse to wreak havoc.

 The Loyalists

Responsibility

Those Loyalists who follow the path of Responsibility support Cole, but do everything they can to protect the citizens of Praetoria in the process. They believe in maintaining law and order within the city, but they do not abuse their power. They tend to be selfless for the most part and represent the idea that not everyone with The Loyalists is bad.

Power

Those Loyalists who follow the path of Power support Cole and all that he stands for, however they use their positions to gain more power, prestige, fame, and fortune for themselves. Much like The Crusaders, they hold life to be of little value, especially the lives of members of The Resistance. If there is something to be gained from it, they will not hesitate to kill, and will not lose any sleep over "collateral damage".

----------------------------------

 

This is from paragonwiki. I guess there's room for interpretation, but to me this perfectly aligns with Heroes, Vigilantes, Rogues, and Villains.

[Lines]

7 hours ago, Darmian said:

While this Redside discussion is ongoing, and this may have been mentioned elsewhere (and perhaps some PVP players will dislike this) but (a) reclaiming one of the Red PVP zones as a PVE zone, my choice would be Bloody Bay, and (b) perhaps upping the strength of the three nukes so that, as it was pre Incarnate powers, it's really worth going to Warburg again. Originally I wanted those nuke powers, now I just got them because I wanted the badge and haven't been back since really, which is a pity because Warburg is a great area.

 

Siren's Call isn't Redside, and frankly I'm not sure what you'd do with it right now.  Recluse's Victory remains THE PVP area of choice obviously, due to the levels.

 

As per my suggestion above re a 60th Anniversary of the Glorious Revolution, perhaps Bloody Bay could be reclaimed?

Honestly, I think this is a really good idea. I can't imagine anyone would lose sleep over the three sub-50 PvP zones becoming shared PVE zones with more breathing room for content.

[Bionic_Flea]

2 hours ago, Lines said:

Honestly, I think this is a really good idea. I can't imagine anyone would lose sleep over the three sub-50 PvP zones becoming shared PVE zones with more breathing room for content.

 

I wouldn't lose sleep over it (or anything relating to the game to be fair) but I don't want it to change.  There are things to do in those zones as is and there is only a small chance of encountering another player, let alone one of the opposing faction that is interested in defeating you.  And even if there is, big deal -- you get knocked out and teleported to the hospital.  The only true injury is to ego . . . and only if you let it.

[Errants]

  

11 hours ago, Wavicle said:

The Resistance

Warden

The Wardens, while opposed to Cole, hold life to be valuable. They make every attempt to reach their goals with as little loss of life as possible. This is not to say that they will not kill, but for the Wardens it is more of a last resort.

Crusader

The Crusaders are more extreme than the Wardens. They believe in winning the fight at any cost, regardless of how many lives it costs. Many of The Crusaders are motivated by revenge, others simply see killing as a means to an end. Most of them believe that they are fighting for a good cause and do not view themselves as evil, but some of them care little about the true cause of the Resistance, and use it merely as an excuse to wreak havoc.

 The Loyalists

Responsibility

Those Loyalists who follow the path of Responsibility support Cole, but do everything they can to protect the citizens of Praetoria in the process. They believe in maintaining law and order within the city, but they do not abuse their power. They tend to be selfless for the most part and represent the idea that not everyone with The Loyalists is bad.

Power

Those Loyalists who follow the path of Power support Cole and all that he stands for, however they use their positions to gain more power, prestige, fame, and fortune for themselves. Much like The Crusaders, they hold life to be of little value, especially the lives of members of The Resistance. If there is something to be gained from it, they will not hesitate to kill, and will not lose any sleep over "collateral damage".

----------------------------------

 

This is from paragonwiki. I guess there's room for interpretation, but to me this perfectly aligns with Heroes, Vigilantes, Rogues, and Villains.

  

11 hours ago, Wavicle said:

I guess there's room for interpretation, but to me this perfectly aligns with Heroes, Vigilantes, Rogues, and Villains.

Quoting for emphasis. To you it aligns. And that's great, but that is also your opinion.

 

Praetoria was specifically supposed to be morally grey - without clear cut heroes or villains. In fact, it is possible to maintain any of the 4 factions through the first 20 levels, take the portal to Primal, and be either a Hero or Villain. You're not locked in.

I felt a finer point on it was less Hero vs Villain in Praetoria, and more Law vs Chaos - Responsibility and Warden are the Law side - stronger code of conduct, restrictions in place, but still trying to effect their will. Crusader and Power are Chaos - whatever happens, happens... If it works to their goals, then sure!

This is from me playing through all 4 factions paths on Legacy, so please forgive errors from 8 years of fog. I'll be playing through them again, natively, when HC makes those upcoming SO changes, and will revise my impressions as needed then.

[Patti]

The wiki is also unofficial so hgrain of salt and all that.

[Wavicle]

1 hour ago, Errants said:

 

Praetoria was specifically supposed to be morally grey - without clear cut heroes and villains.

I’ve seen this assertion, but not in game or in any official materials. Are you sure that’s not just your interpretation?

[Hew]

9 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

I’ve seen this assertion, but not in game or in any official materials. Are you sure that’s not just your interpretation?

Look no further than the name of the expansion, Going Rogue, and the VERY clear indication of emphasis on shades of morality with the introduction of vigilantes and rogues, and the whole original align change process.

 

edit: play vig/rog tips for substantial assertion of this statement. Like, _all_ the vig/rog tips, and their morality mishs.

 

edit edit: yeah, your 11th mish is _morality_.

Edited August 23, 2020 by Hew

[Patti]

Matt Miller said so in an interview too.   Does Any still have that handy?

[Chris24601]

For me it always mapped as;

 

Warden = Hero. Oppose oppression, but care about the means used.

 

Crusader = Villain. Most of their missions boil down to hurting innocents to achieve their political goals.

 

Loyalist = Vigilante. Try to do the right thing, but are willing to do grey things for the greater good of keeping society intact.

 

Power = Rogue. You’re out for power, fame and wealth and saving people is a means to that end (many rogue tip missions and the like focus on getting people to pay you for saving them or to gain the item you procured).

 

None are a perfect match, but that always felt like the closest fit... the two extremes (hero/villain) in one faction and the two intermediates (vigilante/rogue) in the other because that allows for different interactions than otherwise and gives both factions a reason to go either Blue (warden/responsibility) or Red (crusader/power) at the conclusion of the main Praetoria arcs.

 

One of the big “tells” on this, at least for me, is who you get to have farewell conversations with in the mission that sends you to Primal Earth. Hero Resistance is all Warden story NPCs. Villain Resistance is all the Crusader NPCs. Similarly, Hero Loyalists meet up with Responsibility NPCs and Villain Loyalists meet the Power NPCs.

 

[kiramon]

On 8/22/2020 at 12:11 PM, Gulbasaur said:

 

 

I remember playing redside fairly early on and hating the archetypes. 

 

 

 

This was a common feeling (I feel like until the game died but whatever); people were very, very into Blue and used to it, and there was a lot of dislike for ALL red side ATs (even when they weren't competing) - except for Brute lovers. 😛

[Lines]

One thing that really muddies the Praetorian alignment/morality pot is that a member of one alignment can do the arcs of the opposite alignment. A resistance character can do the whole of the power or responsibility arcs, with some extra options thrown in for flavour. Give it a go if you haven't already, it's pretty fun.

 

I don't think the different storylines fit particularly neatly into the Primal alignments - they all rock about a lot. If I had to, though, I'd agree with Chris above but say Responsibility = Hero and Warden = Vigilante. The Wardens will do things for the greater good by acting above the law, whereas Responsibility work to maintain a lawful status quo - either unaware that the status quo is corrupt, or that against the risk of Hamidon it's the lesser of two evils.

 

From a player's perspective, the Wardens are 'more good' than Responsibility because we know the big picture. Our characters might not. The difference between a Hero and a Vigilante isn't necessarily a moral one, but a lawful one.

Edited August 24, 2020 by Lines

[Gulbasaur]

6 minutes ago, kiramon said:

except for Brute lovers.

While I think the ATs are broadly balanced and each has their merits, I really don't like brutes from a design concept. I've whinged about this before, but they took scrapperlock antisocial gameplay and gave it a taunt and more hit points...  which means that you get rewarded with a higher damage bonus for getting into combat with more enemies... on a game with an aggro cap. 

 

"I like the game, but there just isn't enough incentive to kill all your teammates," asked the scrapper. "Do you have anything that rewards horrible gameplay?" 

"Why certain, sir" said the gameplay designers. "Leave the corruptors to deal with three +4 bosses while you herd minions on the other side of the map. Don't worry, support archetypes don't have feelings. Here is a massive damage boost for your troubles." 

 

"Thank you so much! I look forward to the release date!" " said the scrapper and then went back to his colouring in. 

[Myrmidon]

On 8/20/2020 at 11:32 PM, Power Extreme said:

So you are all bending over backwards to kiss NCsofts ass again, You would think that you would have learned by now that they are not to be trusted for Any reason, How about some new Power sets like wind power / Growth Power / do away with the argo cap.or boost the cap for tankers and Brutes, an don't say it can't be done that's BS, If We Have Cake and Destiny server can do it you can, Think it's 15 now move it to 30. an how about a Grav/mental combo. An bring back the Double Influance for us 50's

Everstryke, is that you?

 

On a more serious note, if you prefer the way other servers are run, then why are you here? 

[Myrmidon]

On 8/22/2020 at 11:21 AM, Grouchybeast said:

I like a lot about redside, but what it could really do with is more variety in the enemies.  At the moment it can be a bit All Longbow All The Time in places.

This. After years of dealing with them, I really want to grind that Terrorist organization into dust no matter which side I am on.

[Parabola]

3 hours ago, Gulbasaur said:

"Leave the corruptors to deal with three +4 bosses while you herd minions on the other side of the map.

This is the most irritating thing in high level play. Drives me absolutely nuts. To be fair to brutes though it isn't just they who are guilty of this. I think it has a lot to do with people playing any AT building almost exclusively for aoe performance and then finding they lack the ability to down bosses in a satisfying manner. Ironically the best teammate at high levels could be a single target focused stalker who is prepared to do the hard yards against the +4 bosses.

 

What really grinds my gears is when people are so stuck in the 'all aoe, all the time' mindset that they can't vary their play when required. Fighting +4 nemesis bosses is hard enough without stacking vengeance multiple times on them because some idiot couldn't resist burning the rest of the spawn to the ground.

[Chris24601]

3 hours ago, Lines said:

If I had to, though, I'd agree with Chris above but say Responsibility = Hero and Warden = Vigilante. The Wardens will do things for the greater good by acting above the law, whereas Responsibility work to maintain a lawful status quo - either unaware that the status quo is corrupt, or that against the risk of Hamidon it's the lesser of two evils.

The key distinction for me is that most of the Warden missions involve rescuing people from the corrupt regime while many Responsibility missions are about taking out threats to the false peace of Praetoria... including executing people because going through proper channels wouldn’t be effective (ex. Washington choosing to execute Cleopatra because she’s Resistance because he believed Praetor White would try and shield her).

 

There are several Blueside missions that involve you going outside the law for the greater good. One particularly memorable Crey arc even has you hunted by the authorities for a time because you’re getting too close to uncovering the Countess’ true identity. So disregard for the letter of the law isn’t the hero/vigilante divide.

 

The tip missions on the other hand make that divide clear; choosing hero for the tips always prioritize saving people over actually stopping the bad guy, vigilante missions always prioritize stopping the bad guy over saving people.

 

Warden missions similarly prioritize saving people (even from their Crusader allies at times) while Responsibility missions prioritize hunting down those responsible for endangering people.

 

That’s why I categorize Warden as more hero aligned while Responsibility feels more vigilante aligned.

 

It’s not a perfect match because of the underlying structures (Paragon City by-and-large has reasonable authority figures so heroes can operate mostly within the law while Praetoria is clearly a crapsaccharine tyrannical dystopia where saving people more often requires going around or outside the law), but the Praetorian mission targets relative to the tip missions (the only place we really get a distinction between a hero and a vigilante) fits a LOT more closely than the other way around.

 

 

[Lines]

That's good reasoning.

[Chris24601]

1 minute ago, Lines said:

That's good reasoning.

And it’s also worth noting too in the distinction that vigilantes are still considered “heroes” in the generic sense.

 

They aren’t locked out of any blue-side content for being a vigilante (as opposed to Rogues who can visit, but only have radio and tips that turn you Hero available sans teaming).

 

They just have a differing set of priorities (protect the innocent vs. punish the guilty) and both priorities have a role in achieving justice (allowing villains to go entirely unpunished leads to villains feeling there are no consequences for their crimes).

 

The same can be said of Warden and Responsibility; both play a role in trying to protect Praetorian society from its worst excesses. You can see how close they are both in the fact that both are the mission chains available to either faction (where as you MUST be Resistance to take Crusader missions and MUST be Loyalist to take Power missions) and in the moral choices available at the end of each zone arc.

 

Warden moral choices are invariably about protecting individuals (remain Resistance/Warden) vs. protecting society (go Loyalist/Responsibility) while Responsibility moral choices are invariably about protecting society (remain Loyalist) vs. protecting individuals (go Resistance).

 

Honestly, the most interesting thing to me is how it shakes out in the post-Praetorian War arcs; where Responsibility and Warden NPCs end up basically on the same side (and in Paragon City) while you see Crusader and Power NPCs turn up in the Rogue Isles (including generic Crusader mobs joining Arachnos in Recluse’s tower in Grandville).

 

Also telling on the “two sides of the same coin” front is that the final morality choice for Responsibility involves an NPC who basically embodies the “Responsibility” faction in Praetoria deciding to “go Resistance/Warden” on learning Emperor Cole’s true plans.

 

Similarly, even if you remain Loyalist, Marchand (who is Responsibility) urges you to go to Paragon City and be a hero in an effort to avoid the war by proving not all Praetorians are villains (and that going Red will do nothing but empower yourself).

 

Honestly? It makes me wish we actually had two more alignments on Primal Earth... call it a “Red-side Warden”; a hero who protects the innocent in the Rogue Isles while evading the legal authorities (i.e. the utterly corrupt RIP and Arachnos); and a “Blue-side Power”; a self-serving powered person who cares only about their own fame and glory (akin to The Boys).

[Piecemeal]

Just thought I'd pop in with a screenshot of my testing work today. Making sure hunts work is strenuous. Blueside's coming along 🙂

[Lines]

Man, the double-yellow-mohawk guys really got it worst. You freakin half buried them.

[Piecemeal]

5 minutes ago, Lines said:

Man, the double-yellow-mohawk guys really got it worst. You freakin half buried them.

You have to crack a few eggs to make an omelette!