Request for Illusion for Doms

[Squints]

Always wondered why Dom never got illusion. 

[Greycat]

Asked for before.

Phantom army, among other things, are an issue.

 

Also, personally... meh.

[M3z]

Should implement it, let's not pretend this game is balanced lol. Would love to pvp with ill.

[Alchemystic]

5 minutes ago, M3z said:

Should implement it, let's not pretend this game is balanced lol. Would love to pvp with ill.

Its far more balanced than the other servers. 😏

[Monos King]

I haven't had it explained to me yet actually, @Tyrannical perhaps you can or send me a link to a comment doing so. Why is illusion as is too strong for doms? I couldn't see it being worst than the existing OPness when controllers have it.

Edited August 21, 2020 by Monos King

[Sakura Tenshi]

To clarify though, isn't the issues that the numerous pets Illusion makes use of is simultaneously overpowered and underpowered for doms? Overpowered because craploads of pets, only one of which is killable. The downside though is that the three pets do not help build domination, nor do the two stealth powers, forcing the dom to rely on only a handful of controls and their attacks.

 

Illusion for doms would need to be massively different, because, to be honest, the controller version as is is a crappy control set that relies more on DPS pets than actual controls.

[Alchemystic]

6 hours ago, Monos King said:

I haven't had it explained to me yet actually, @Tyrannical perhaps you can or send me a link to a comment doing so. Why is illusion as is too strong for doms? I couldn't see it being worst than the existing OPness when controllers have it.

there you go!

[Zepp]

5 hours ago, Sakura Tenshi said:

To clarify though, isn't the issues that the numerous pets Illusion makes use of is simultaneously overpowered and underpowered for doms? Overpowered because craploads of pets, only one of which is killable. The downside though is that the three pets do not help build domination, nor do the two stealth powers, forcing the dom to rely on only a handful of controls and their attacks.

 

Illusion for doms would need to be massively different, because, to be honest, the controller version as is is a crappy control set that relies more on DPS pets than actual controls.

Illusion control uses aggro management more than DpS to control. It is very different from other control sets, but has a good deal of control if used well.

A Dom playing illusion would have to be more active and require their PA to draw more aggro.

If it were to be ported to Dom it may need to have adjustments to illusory damage and increased aggro from PA to allow it to work as a control set that is fairly balanced. Even then, there will likely be a lot of Doms out there that use it as a DpS set rather than a control set.

[M3z]

18 hours ago, Tyrannical said:

Its far more balanced than the other servers. 😏

My point isn't that this server is more or less balanced than others. My point is if we can go roll a titan weapon scrapper and go 2 shot an AV why should we be concerned with this set. It's gonna be strong sure but not game breaking.

[Greycat]

I'd rather have them plan it out and test it than "just do it."

[AerialAssault]

There's also the issue of building Domination in the first place.

 

Illusion Control has two non-attacks (Superior Invisibility & Group Invisibility). As far as I am aware, Dominators only build Domination from attacks, so right there is two powers which do not contribute. In addition, I do not believe, but I may be wrong about this, that Pets build Domination when they attack. Since Illusion Control is all about the Pets, that adds 3 more powers into the Not Building Domination category. That would leave you with only 4 Domination building attacks from your Primary set (Spectral Wounds, Blind, Deceive & Flash), and two of those do not deal damage.

 

There also comes the question of how Domination affects Pets. Again, as far as I am aware, Pets do not benefit from Domination's increased Crowd Control, but only the Spectral Terror casts any Crowd Control (Fear), so 1 out of 3 isn't exactly great. Even if you look at the rest of Illusion's powers, you again have two powers which would not benefit from Domination (the Invisibility powers), leaving only Deceive, Blind & Flash. So that's less than half of your powers benefiting from Domination. And if we're being Real, they're not very good powers.

 

Now, while I'm not saying it would be impossible  to activate Domination, you would have to work twice as hard as any other Dominator to do so. The payoff, I guess, is that Phantom Army would become a god-tier power for Dominators, but putting that much stock into one power, I feel, cannot be good. 

 

Basically, what I'm saying is that if/when Illusion Control is added to Dominators, it wouldn't (or shouldn't) be a simple CTRL+C, CTRL+V affair.

[Alchemystic]

6 minutes ago, AerialAssault said:

Basically, what I'm saying is that if/when Illusion Control is added to Dominators, it wouldn't (or shouldn't) be a simple CTRL+C, CTRL+V affair.

This is as close as I could get to it being a CTRL+C, CTRL+V setup, without investing too much in a total redesign.

 

 

Edited August 21, 2020 by Tyrannical

[Greycat]

Someone earlier was asking about building domination (in game, not here.)

Yeah. Attacks? Build domination.

Pets? No. (Their pets don't, either, nor do they benefit from domination.)

Placed AOEs (I was on dark, but spectral terror does this, too) don't.

 

Multiple pets aren't necessarily a bad thing - Dark, for instance, has two sets, but having them untouchable is likely an issue. As are the two invisibilities, which do nothing for domination. One would likely be kept - it's "thematic," and I'd guess it'd be the toggle for the sake of escorts. But the other would have to be replaced with something.

[Patti]

Didn't powerhouseman say the plan was to change the army into supportive assaults who mirror the dominator's secondary?

[Outrider_01]

One thing that gets me and not dominator related, why doesn't Phantasm have the same ability to change the pets to the "Mirror" effect to it acts like Phantom Army and look like the player.  They already have something to work with, except for time involved it shouldn't be very difficult to implement.

[Solarverse]

There have been many threads on this...short answer, Devs are trying to figure out a way to balance it *if* they decide to implement it...and yes, I was one of the people who made a post on this and argued until I was blue in the face in favor of the idea.  😄

[Zepp]

21 hours ago, Tyrannical said:

This is as close as I could get to it being a CTRL+C, CTRL+V setup, without investing too much in a total redesign.

 

 

Um, no.

• Doms would need to up the Aggro on Phantom army, not decrease it.
• I'm not a fan of removing the stacking click defense/stealth. It doesn't need to be removed. Furthermore, the proposed replacement would be nigh useless as you can't always maintain PA and Phanty focus.
• Flash needs to have its animation time reduced by 25-50%.
• Removing the sleep pseudopet from Blind and adding a ST sleep (which would likely mean a damage nerf), is problematic as it would give two controls in the first two powers, which is out of line with other sets.

Edited August 22, 2020 by Zepp

[Noyjitat]

11 hours ago, AerialAssault said:

There's also the issue of building Domination in the first place.

 

Illusion Control has two non-attacks (Superior Invisibility & Group Invisibility). As far as I am aware, Dominators only build Domination from attacks, so right there is two powers which do not contribute. In addition, I do not believe, but I may be wrong about this, that Pets build Domination when they attack. Since Illusion Control is all about the Pets, that adds 3 more powers into the Not Building Domination category. That would leave you with only 4 Domination building attacks from your Primary set (Spectral Wounds, Blind, Deceive & Flash), and two of those do not deal damage.

 

There also comes the question of how Domination affects Pets. Again, as far as I am aware, Pets do not benefit from Domination's increased Crowd Control, but only the Spectral Terror casts any Crowd Control (Fear), so 1 out of 3 isn't exactly great. Even if you look at the rest of Illusion's powers, you again have two powers which would not benefit from Domination (the Invisibility powers), leaving only Deceive, Blind & Flash. So that's less than half of your powers benefiting from Domination. And if we're being Real, they're not very good powers.

 

Now, while I'm not saying it would be impossible  to activate Domination, you would have to work twice as hard as any other Dominator to do so. The payoff, I guess, is that Phantom Army would become a god-tier power for Dominators, but putting that much stock into one power, I feel, cannot be good. 

 

Basically, what I'm saying is that if/when Illusion Control is added to Dominators, it wouldn't (or shouldn't) be a simple CTRL+C, CTRL+V affair.

Dominators build domination just fine using primary or secondary powers but actual attacks especially aoes do better.

[AerialAssault]

3 hours ago, Noyjitat said:

Dominators build domination just fine using primary or secondary powers but actual attacks especially aoes do better.

I'm not saying that Dominator's don't (I'm not sure where you got that from), but an Illusion Control Dominator would have only half of their primary powers qualifying to build Domination. That puts them at an immediate deficit versus other control sets.

[Alchemystic]

10 hours ago, Zepp said:

Um, no.

• Doms would need to up the Aggro on Phantom army, not decrease it.
• I'm not a fan of removing the stacking click defense/stealth. It doesn't need to be removed. Furthermore, the proposed replacement would be nigh useless as you can't always maintain PA and Phanty focus.
• Flash needs to have its animation time reduced by 25-50%.
• Removing the sleep pseudopet from Blind and adding a ST sleep (which would likely mean a damage nerf), is problematic as it would give two controls in the first two powers, which is out of line with other sets.

 

 

I think it's been discussed already that the PA aggro is one of he main problems preventing it from being ported to doms, as stated by CaptainPowerhouse.

 

The group stealth and spectral wounds were swapped for more powers that benefit from domination. Also, stealth doesn't stack (and Superior Invisibility hits the stealth cap on it's own anyway).

 

Flash can have its animation time reduced if needed, seems fair.

 

Removing sleep from blind was the intention, as it makes way for the new ST and AoE sleep powers. (Making it more in line with Mind Control)

Edited August 22, 2020 by Tyrannical

[Zepp]

9 minutes ago, Tyrannical said:

I think it's been discussed already that the PA aggro is one of he main problems preventing it from being ported to doms, as stated by CaptainPowerhouse.

 

The group stealth and spectral wounds were swapped for more powers that benefit from domination. Also, stealth doesn't stack (and Superior Invisibility hits the stealth cap on it's own anyway).

 

Flash can have its animation time reduced if needed, seems fair.

 

Removing sleep from blind was the intention, as it makes way for the new ST and AoE sleep powers. (Making it more in line with Mind Control)

• I understand the position that Captain Powerhouse took. Unfortunately, he does not seem to understand how control works for Illusion Control. Most control sets use a combination of the traditional CC powers to control the battlefield. Illusion uses aggro management (through PA and SI mainly). Thus destroying the control element of the set by nerfing the threat generated from PA is not a viable option for anyone that plays Illusion as a control set.
• There is no benefit to domination on powers that use control methods that do not fit the set. Also, it is okay for the set to have less benefit from domination, it already barely benefits from containment, but that doesn't stop trollers from loving it.
• Group Invisibility does stack with other stealth powers. While Superior Invisibility already hits the stealth cap, it is useful for stacking defense, team stealth, or stealth versus Ice trollers in PvP.
• I understand the intent, I was just suggesting that it was a bad idea.

I understand that you agree with Captain Powerhouse about aggro being the problem. However, the unique flavor of illusion control as a non-standard control set is because it uses aggro management to control the battlefield. The fact that you have to resummon PA every minute (if you manage the difficult task of getting to Perma-PA - which requires a good deal of sacrifice, influence, and planning and is not easy) means that you have a huge hole in your control management every time you resummon (they have to rebuild aggro and you are a sitting duck).

Furthermore, because of the nature of the Dom secondary, Doms would actually need more aggro from PA to develop a similar level of control that illusion trollers that play as trollers do.

Also, let me be clear. I am fine with Illusion DpSers. It is one way to play the set, and makes it more of a blaster set than a control set, But, that is a reasonable way to play. However, looking at playing it as a control set there are two things which are clear. Sleeps are not tenable as control mechanisms in this set (the sleep pseudopet is only truly useful pre-PA), and PA needs more aggro to be useful as a control set for Doms.

[Squints]

Honestly Imo, I don't really care if majority of the attacks are won't get the Domination benefits. I would just like to play a Illi Dom. Just having the option to play one is nice. 

[Noyjitat]

On 8/22/2020 at 5:02 AM, AerialAssault said:

I'm not saying that Dominator's don't (I'm not sure where you got that from), but an Illusion Control Dominator would have only half of their primary powers qualifying to build Domination. That puts them at an immediate deficit versus other control sets.

For doms that use more controls and less attacks I agree with you there but with phantom army you wouldn't need to use as many controls because the pets don't suck like most control pets do and they taunt. Unless they plan to radically change phantom army. Phantom army being true illusions that dont die and taunting things are the big allure for illusion and if they change that there's little point to play it. 

Edited August 25, 2020 by Noyjitat