Most useful Controller for the current fast endgame?

[KaizenSoze]

Inspired by this thread:

 

 

Solo: Several, Illusion, Plant...

Team: ?

AVs: Illusion...

Edited September 2, 2020 by KaizenSoze

[Coyote]

AV: Illusion or Earth (Stoney can tank AVs with some secondaries, and unlike Illusion it can Immobilize them). It depends on whether the team needs a tank replacement or not.

 

Non-AV: Primary generally doesn't matter much as mobs melt fast, so a bit of damage doesn't hurt... Plant or Fire.

 

Solo: Illusion, Plant, Dark, Fire (with a defensive secondary).

 

Secondaries:

Storm for soloing as offensive option, Dark as defensive option (works great as Fire/Dark). Maybe Time if you really want to focus defensively, but IMO a Controller with its defensive primary doesn't need Time's focus on defense with almost no offensive boost, leave that for MMs or Corruptors.

Cold or Poison for teaming (Poison if defensive needs are taken care of). Maybe TA also as it has two -Res powers, again if defensive needs are handled.

[RageusQuitus2]

On 9/2/2020 at 10:00 PM, Coyote said:

AV: Illusion or Earth (Stoney can tank AVs with some secondaries, and unlike Illusion it can Immobilize them). It depends on whether the team needs a tank replacement or not.

 

I was so torn between grav/storm and earth/storm.  I choose grav cause I really like singularity.  Your post makes me sad : ).  Now I wish Id taken earth.

[GM Korvin]

If you're looking for additional means of dealing damage, Stone Mastery as an Ancillary Power Pool choice offers a good amount of solid attacks (Seismic Smash being the stand out), along with capping your Controller's HP (Earth's Embrace).

[Coyote]

1 hour ago, RageusQuitus2 said:

I was so torn between grav/storm and earth/storm.  I choose grav cause I really like singularity.  Your post makes me sad : ).  Now I wish Id taken earth.

 

Don't worry about it... if you take Earth with the plan to have Stoney tank an AV, you need a secondary that can debuff the AV or buff Stoney, and Storm is too offensive. You want Cold or Thermal as best options, with Pain, Nature, Dark, and Empathy also useful for that.

And Grav/Storm is an excellent mix, using Wormhole to bunch mobs up so that Tornado and Lightning Storm's little 5' radius "AoE" effects hit multiple targets reliably.

[GM Aurarius]

I see a lot of Plant/Nature Controllers that seem to do very well during late game teams.
The heals from Nature affinity have the potential to outperform Empathy.

Just to play devils advocate and bring something up that hasn't been mentioned yet.

[roleki]

On 9/5/2020 at 9:19 AM, RageusQuitus2 said:

I was so torn between grav/storm and earth/storm.  I choose grav cause I really like singularity.  Your post makes me sad : ).  Now I wish Id taken earth.

Grav/Storm may not be able to solo an AV, but it'll melt anything else you throw at it, and a hell of a lot faster than Earth/Storm, especially these days.  Put KB:KD in all the right places, and you can just rain hell in a little 20' section of the map that nothing can survive in for long.

 

 

[MTeague]

My Mind/Kin turned several repeated wipes vs IDF into a solid win, and then we steamrolled for the rest of the night.

 

If you're only doing a Peregrine Island radio mission vs Council marathon, okay, maybe you don't need a controller. 

But the nastier the foes you're up against, the more help a Controller is to the team. 

I focus on Malta, Carnies, Ruluaru, IDF, Awakened, Shepherds, Arachnos/Longbow, Vanguard, Animated Arcana, etc.

[RageusQuitus2]

19 minutes ago, roleki said:

Grav/Storm may not be able to solo an AV, but it'll melt anything else you throw at it, and a hell of a lot faster than Earth/Storm, especially these days.  Put KB:KD in all the right places, and you can just rain hell in a little 20' section of the map that nothing can survive in for long.

 

 

What is it that makes earth so special on AVs? but not on EBs, bosses and Lts?  I would think if you can kill an AV you can kill anything...   If its just the pet...  I thought singularity was its match.

[Tacheyon]

3 hours ago, RageusQuitus2 said:

What is it that makes earth so special on AVs? but not on EBs, bosses and Lts?  I would think if you can kill an AV you can kill anything...   If its just the pet...  I thought singularity was its match.

 

A lot of it has to do with Volcanic Gases, Quicksand and Earthquake. 

Volcanic Gases is the best AOE hold Controllers get due to it's nature.  Instead of just one shot and done like most others, it is a a pseudo-pet that you place and fires off pulses over the course of it's duration which stack.  So between that and Fossilize and (if you take it) Seismic Smash you have a good chance of holding a AV.  Plus you can load up a bunch of procs in it to make it a nice damage area as well.

Earthquake is provides a terrific -ToHit debuff on anything in it's field plus has a very high knockdown chance.

Quicksand shreds Def as well and makes things nice and easy to hit.

 

The issue is that it takes time to set these areas up.  Which in a lot of Speed teams the trash mobs are dead before you lay down a Quicksand.  You only have time to hit a Stalagmites or a Stone Cage.  AV fights last a lot longer so you have more time to set up.

 

That is my 2 inf.

[Coyote]

15 hours ago, RageusQuitus2 said:

What is it that makes earth so special on AVs? but not on EBs, bosses and Lts?  I would think if you can kill an AV you can kill anything...   If its just the pet...  I thought singularity was its match.

 

EBs, Bosses, LTs, you can survive aggro without a great build.

AVs will kill you if you don't have a great defensive build. Some will kill you even with a great defensive build.

However, Animate Stone is a very tough pet... 40% is his lowest resistance, which goes up to 60% with pet IOs (and that's only to Smashing... Lethal is 70%, and everything else is 80% or higher). That's before adding in some Resist buffs from Pain, Thermal, Plant or Sonic, which generally put him over 80%... 85% with Barrier. That's seriously tough. Add in healing from those sets (Medicine Pool is needed for Sonic), and Stoney can stand in front of an AV. Cold has different stats, but can also work well enough to keep Stoney alive.

I don't know if Singularity can do that, because you cannot heal it. Yes, it will take little damage per hit, but it will eventually go down to an AV.

 

However, the real reason why Earth handles AVs if you can buff Stoney, while Gravity cannot, is very simple: Animate Stone has Taunt effect on all of its attacks, so it can hold the AV's aggro. Singularity does not, so you will pull aggro from it to you, in which case see the part above where the AV kills you.

 

BTW, because AVs resist most debuffs strongly and are pretty hard to control, having great AoE debuffs and controls doesn't mean that much against them. It's all about Stoney tanking the AV, while other permanent pets cannot. Earthquake and Volcanic Gases are great powers, but for normal spawns, not for AV fights.

Edited September 7, 2020 by Coyote

[Sir Myshkin]

@RageusQuitus2

Earth/Storm/Stone Build, fully capable of handling any content, but with late-achieved Storm abilities it really is a 45+ build when it comes to the damage front. This will cause enough general chaos and hard KD effects that you won't have to worry too much about Stony staying alive. Against an even-con AV, this thing will be 100% fine against most of them, and all of your damage is packed into force multiplying Lightning Storm, Tornado, letting Stony do its thing, and pounding in those Seismic Smashes and Fossilize while Freezing Rain rips apart their resistances. Once you get a couple FF+Rech procs going you'll be dropping your whole arsenal every 15-20/s.

 

Spoiler

Hero Plan by Mids' Reborn : Hero Designer 2.6.0.7
https://github.com/ImaginaryDevelopment/imaginary-hero-designer

Click this DataLink to open the build!

Level 50 Magic Controller
Primary Power Set: Earth Control
Secondary Power Set: Storm Summoning
Power Pool: Fighting
Power Pool: Speed
Power Pool: Leaping
Power Pool: Leadership
Ancillary Pool: Stone Mastery

Hero Profile:
Level 1: Fossilize -- GhsWdwEmb-Acc/EndRdx(A), GhsWdwEmb-Dam%(3), GldNet-Dam%(3), GldJvl-Dam%(5), UnbCns-Dam%(5), NrnSht-Dam%(7)
Level 1: Gale -- SuddAcc--KB/+KD(A), FrcFdb-Rechg%(9)
Level 2: Stone Cages -- Rgn-Dmg(A), Rgn-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(19), Rgn-Acc/Rchg(19), Rgn-Dmg/EndRdx(23), Rgn-Knock%(25), PstBls-Dam%(25)
Level 4: Boxing -- HO:Nucle(A)
Level 6: Quicksand -- TmpRdn-EndRdx/Rchg/Slow(A)
Level 8: Hasten -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(9)
Level 10: Steamy Mist -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A), Rct-ResDam%(11), ShlWal-ResDam/Re TP(11), LucoftheG-Def/EndRdx(17)
Level 12: Stalagmites -- SprWiloft-Acc/Conf/Hold/Immob/Sleep/Stun/Fear(A), SprWiloft-EndRdx/Rchg(13), SprWiloft-Acc/Conf/Hold/Immob/Sleep/Stun/Fear/EndRdx(13), SprWiloft-Acc/Conf/Hold/Immob/Sleep/Stun/Fear/EndRdx/Rchg(15), SprWiloft-Rchg/Dmg%(15), PstBls-Dam%(17)
Level 14: Super Jump -- BlsoftheZ-ResKB(A)
Level 16: Freezing Rain -- RechRdx-I(A)
Level 18: Earthquake -- DarWtcDsp-ToHitDeb/Rchg(A), DarWtcDsp-ToHitdeb/Rchg/EndRdx(21), DarWtcDsp-ToHitDeb/EndRdx(27), DarWtcDsp-Rchg/EndRdx(27), FrcFdb-Rechg%(43)
Level 20: Hurricane -- EndRdx-I(A), SuddAcc--KB/+KD(21)
Level 22: Maneuvers -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A), LucoftheG-Def(23), LucoftheG-Def/EndRdx(37)
Level 24: Tough -- GldArm-3defTpProc(A), StdPrt-ResDam/Def+(34), HO:Ribo(40)
Level 26: Combat Jumping -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A)
Level 28: Thunder Clap -- SprOvrPrs-Acc/Conf/Hold/Immob/Sleep/Stun/Fear(A), SprOvrPrs-Acc/Conf/Hold/Immob/Sleep/Stun/Fear/EndRdx(29), SprOvrPrs-Acc/Conf/Hold/Immob/Sleep/Stun/Fear/EndRdx/Rchg(29), SprOvrPrs-Rchg/Energy Font(40)
Level 30: Weave -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A), LucoftheG-Def/EndRdx(31), LucoftheG-Def(31)
Level 32: Animate Stone -- ExpRnf-Acc/Rchg(A), ExpRnf-Acc/Dmg(33), ExpRnf-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(33), ExpRnf-EndRdx/Dmg/Rchg(33), SlbAll-Build%(34), OvrFrc-Dam/KB(34)
Level 35: Tornado -- ExpRnf-Acc/Rchg(A), ExpRnf-Dmg/EndRdx(36), ExpRnf-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(36), ExpRnf-EndRdx/Dmg/Rchg(36), AchHee-ResDeb%(37), SuddAcc--KB/+KD(37)
Level 38: Lightning Storm -- Apc-Dmg/Rchg(A), Apc-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(39), Apc-Acc/Rchg(39), Apc-Dmg/EndRdx(39), Apc-Dam%(40), SuddAcc--KB/+KD(46)
Level 41: Fissure -- SprFrzBls-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(A), SprFrzBls-Rchg/ImmobProc(42), FrcFdb-Rechg%(42), ExpStr-Dam%(42), Ann-ResDeb%(43), PstBls-Dam%(43)
Level 44: Seismic Smash -- SprBlsCol-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(A), Hct-Dam%(45), GhsWdwEmb-Dam%(45), TchofDth-Dam%(45), GldStr-%Dam(46), Mk'Bit-Dam%(46)
Level 47: Rock Armor -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A), LucoftheG-Def(48), LucoftheG-Def/EndRdx(48)
Level 49: Hurl Boulder -- SprWntBit-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(A), GldJvl-Dam%(50), ExpStr-Dam%(50), FrcFdb-Rechg%(50)
Level 1: Brawl -- HO:Nucle(A)
Level 1: Containment
Level 1: Prestige Power Dash -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Slide -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Quick -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Rush -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Surge -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Clr-Stlth(A)
Level 2: Rest -- IntRdx-I(A)
Level 4: Ninja Run
Level 2: Swift -- Run-I(A)
Level 2: Health -- Pnc-Heal/+End(A), NmnCnv-Regen/Rcvry+(31), Mrc-Rcvry+(48)
Level 2: Hurdle -- Jump-I(A)
Level 2: Stamina -- PrfShf-End%(A), PrfShf-EndMod(7)
Level 50: Intuition Radial Paragon
Level 50: Ageless Core Epiphany
------------

 

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Since you did got Gravity/Storm, I pulled this that you could merge it into the Storm above (swap out Primaries, remove Hurl, there will be enough space/slots to accommodate). Either one is more than capable of taking on an AV purely because of Storm alone, but Gravity has a bit more focus on ST capacity than Earth does so might do it a bit faster (but it's honestly pretty close trading out Singularity for Stony). Gravity also has a much more interesting dynamic with Dimension Shift, Wormhole, Tornado, and Lightning Storm. You can set Tornado on a group, Dimension shift them, wormhole in another group, and drop Lightning Storm inside and just... watch them disappear. Dimension Shift doesn't have a notable capacity and immobilizes whatever gets locked inside, Wormhole has a pretty good range on its cast... it super-maximizes Storm's damage and is oddly fun, and also a useful solo skill for utter safety, but unless you make a team aware of how it works they may not understand what's going on and it confuses people so... be careful with it.

 

Spoiler

Hero Plan by Mids' Reborn : Hero Designer 2.6.0.7
https://github.com/ImaginaryDevelopment/imaginary-hero-designer

Click this DataLink to open the build!

Level 50 Natural Controller
Primary Power Set: Gravity Control
Secondary Power Set: Storm Summoning

Hero Profile:
Level 1: Lift -- SprWntBit-Acc/Dmg(A), SprWntBit-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(31), Dcm-Build%(34), GldJvl-Dam%(36), ExpStr-Dam%(37), FrcFdb-Rechg%(37)
Level 1: [Empty] -- Empty(A)
Level 2: [Empty] -- Empty(A), Empty(3), Empty(3), Empty(5), Empty(5), Empty(7)
Level 4: Gravity Distortion -- Thn-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(A), GldJvl-Dam%(7), GhsWdwEmb-Dam%(13), GldNet-Dam%(15), UnbCns-Dam%(15), ImpSwf-Dam%(21)
Level 6: [Empty] -- Empty(A), Empty(37), Empty(40), Empty(40)
Level 8: Crush -- Thn-Acc/Dmg(A), Thn-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(9), GldJvl-Dam%(9), Apc-Dam%(11), TraoftheH-Dam%(11), ImpSwf-Dam%(13)
Level 10: [Empty] -- Empty(A)
Level 12: Crushing Field -- SprOvrPrs-Acc/Conf/Hold/Immob/Sleep/Stun/Fear/EndRdx(A), Rgn-Knock%(46), SprOvrPrs-Rchg/Energy Font(46), PstBls-Dam%(48), TraoftheH-Dam%(48), ImpSwf-Dam%(48)
Level 14: Dimension Shift -- SprWiloft-Acc/Conf/Hold/Immob/Sleep/Stun/Fear/EndRdx/Rchg(A), SprWiloft-EndRdx/Rchg(31), SprWiloft-Acc/Conf/Hold/Immob/Sleep/Stun/Fear/EndRdx(40), SprWiloft-Acc/Conf/Hold/Immob/Sleep/Stun/Fear(42), SprWiloft-Rchg/Dmg%(42)
Level 16: [Empty] -- Empty(A), Empty(17), Empty(17), Empty(19), Empty(19), Empty(21)
Level 18: [Empty] -- Empty(A), Empty(42), Empty(43), Empty(43)
Level 20: [Empty] -- Empty(A)
Level 22: [Empty] -- Empty(A), Empty(23), Empty(23)
Level 24: [Empty] -- Empty(A), Empty(25), Empty(25), Empty(27)
Level 26: Wormhole -- FrcFdb-Rechg%(A), SuddAcc--KB/+KD(50), AbsAmz-Acc/Rchg(50)
Level 28: [Empty] -- Empty(A), Empty(29), Empty(29), Empty(31)
Level 30: [Empty] -- Empty(A), Empty(43)
Level 32: Singularity -- ExpRnf-Acc/Rchg(A), ExpRnf-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(33), ExpRnf-Acc/Dmg(33), ExpRnf-EndRdx/Dmg/Rchg(33), SlbAll-Build%(34), OvrFrc-Dam/KB(34)
Level 35: [Empty] -- Empty(A), Empty(36), Empty(36)
Level 38: [Empty] -- Empty(A), Empty(39), Empty(39), Empty(39)
Level 41: [Empty] -- Empty(A)
Level 44: [Empty] -- Empty(A), Empty(45), Empty(45), Empty(45)
Level 47: [Empty] -- Empty(A)
Level 49: [Empty] -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Containment
Level 1: Prestige Power Dash -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Slide -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Quick -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Rush -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Surge -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 4: Ninja Run
Level 2: Swift -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Health -- Pnc-Heal/+End(A), NmnCnv-Regen/Rcvry+(27), Mrc-Rcvry+(46)
Level 2: Hurdle -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Stamina -- PrfShf-EndMod(A), PrfShf-End%(50)
Level 50: Intuition Radial Paragon
------------

 

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[RageusQuitus2]

Thanks all.  Thats everything i needed, answers to questions and builds to work off!  appreciated

[Riverdusk]

On 9/6/2020 at 8:06 AM, roleki said:

Grav/Storm may not be able to solo an AV, but it'll melt anything else you throw at it, and a hell of a lot faster than Earth/Storm, especially these days.  Put KB:KD in all the right places, and you can just rain hell in a little 20' section of the map that nothing can survive in for long.

 

 

Haven't tried it myself with a stormie in particular, but I've read of people soloing AV's with nothing but storm powers alone, so I'd bet a Grav/Storm definitely could.  Just a matter of building for it.  Or honestly just using a bunch of purple inspirations is usually enough to get you through if surviving is the issue.  Fights like that are what inspirations are there for.  Also depends if someone is talking about a +0/+1 AV or a +4 AV of course.    

[VV]

On 9/2/2020 at 7:52 PM, KaizenSoze said:

Most useful Controller for the current fast endgame?

Scrapper. Or possibly Fire/Cold Corruptor.

[VV]

On 9/5/2020 at 9:19 AM, RageusQuitus2 said:

I was so torn between grav/storm and earth/storm.  I choose grav cause I really like singularity.  Your post makes me sad : ).  Now I wish Id taken earth.

Singularity can tank AVs, too. And the damage is better than Earth.

[Omega-202]

Besides anything/Kin, only because of what SB and FS bring to the table, I've found that my Ill/Storm/Soul does a decent job of keeping up with endgame steamrollers, but not as well as other characters I have.  

 

Basically to be relevant you need high damage with minimal animation time/set up and at least a debuff and/or buff or two that factors in at endgame.  Illusion brings a solid amount of damage between PA, Phantasm, procced out Blind and Spectral Wounds and 'enough' control in Terror to keep you alive.  Storm brings -res in Freezing Rain and F/C/E resistance in Mist which are endgame relevant resists that a lot of builds might not carry a lot of.  It also brings a lot more damage in Tornado and LS.  

 

The combo works, but the animations kill it.  You need to be at the front to make sure you get to the next mob first so you can start laying down all of your targetted AoEs.  It takes ~12 seconds to lay down Rain, Terror, PA, Tornado and LS.  Precasting Tornado and PA helps, but if you're not at the spawn first, the Blaster may have nuked it down already before you can get Rain down, and LS ends up only working as a mop up, which is still useful because there will always be bosses to mop up, but the storm usually outlives the mob you're fighting.  The good news is that Ill/Storm chews up AVs through shear damage.  

 

My Fire/Kin is ok in endgame teams, but that's mostly Kin carrying the build.  Flashfire and Bonfire (w/ KD proc) aren't as useful as they used to be on bulky teams, and the damage is overall 'meh' without FS backing it up.  

 

/Dark is always useful because Tar Patch and all of the -regen in HT and TG, and Fade is still pretty solid after the nerf.  

[VV]

It sort of depends on what you mean by "fast endgame." If you are talking about the real peak speedsters who tear through MLTF in like 7 minutes, then a Controller is not the thing to take at all. Optimal team for those is 5-6 Scrappers, 1 */Cold Corruptor, and 1 or 2 Blasters.

 

If you are talking about just regular steamrolling through Radios or TFs, then something with a lot of fast-cast -Res, -Def, -Regen is going to be your best bet. Team buffs are also nice, but with Incarnates, they can get a little pointless.

 

Primary is less important than secondary, but something that keeps mobs grouped up is best, along with some damage, so like Grav or Fire, maybe Elec, but it's a bit weak on damage. In steamrolling teams, I recommend against Plant, though. It gets most of its damage from Confusion, and a fast team burns down the enemies too quickly for that to have much impact. Though, procced-up Creepers can be pretty hardcore.

 

Also, slot everything for damage, nothing for mezz duration, and look at your damage procs and how best to apply those for maximum smackage. Get that recharge rate up above the 170s, too. And you are going to have to work really hard on End management.

 

I know this sounds a bit down on Controllers, but I say all this as a Controller primary, (Grav/Storm). I run in these steamrollers a lot, and I have been on a few of the peak speedsters run. And, yeah, I see how I am not contributing as much as some. Every now and then, there comes that time when things go really, really south, and the Controller pulls it out by unleashing all their tools at once, then they are happy you are there. Other than that, as long as they are cool that you are along for the ride, then just do the best you can.

[SylvanMansion]

I playing only controllers. 

 

Back in live, Illusion/Rad, especially with the Phantasm, was nearly unbeatable.  So, I remade this controller when Homecoming made it possible to play COH again. However, the set didn't stand up as well as I remember.

 

Then, Electric/Electric was introduced. Those two powers together are spectacular!  She can stop mobs, sleep mobs, drain all their endurance, heal, buff, AND replenish the entire party's Endurance thereby overpowering all the others controllers I have. I added all the IOs for increased casting speed and this controller is unstoppable.

[BitCook]

Sadly, there is NO controller that is suited for todays fast paced steamroller teams.  There is literally nothing you bring to the table that the team will need that another optimized damage dealer will not add more to kill speed.  The problem is that damage has exceeded difficulty and lots of end game toons can solo +4/8 with reasonable clear speeds.  When you have a few of those toons on a team, no controls, buffs, debuffs, or aggro management is going to matter at all.

With that said, I love controllers.  Sadly, they're just not really useful except solo, small team, or levels 30-45 with non exemped characters.

[Sovera]

Not much point in Controllers. I don't want to pee in someone's cornflakes so I'm stating this as my opinion. As a plus if having fun with a Controller that's what logging into a game is about.

 

That said you can still greatly speed the already fast end game with something like a Plant/Kin. Seeds of Confusion at level 8 makes enemies fight each other so your team is safe, and the enemies hitting each other makes them lose HP so they die faster. And finally you throw Fulcrum Shift and Speed Boost which makes your team love you to bits.