Super Reflexes: Quality of Life Improvements II: Reflexive Suparoo

[ninja surprise]

2 hours ago, Xanatos said:

If you want to do anything, reduce the end cost of the toggles. That's a net positive change.

 

This isn't even an issue when most people will six-slot for set bonuses.

I've always loved SR. I'd be happy with a couple tweaks, based on the assumption that SR users will already work to soft-cap and at endgame soft-cap is trivial:

 

Re-order the powers so the core toggles are available as proposed

Tweak Elude to match Meltdown: give it quicker recharge and change the crash to a % of End rather than the full crash. Add more +regen.

 

If we're going crazy with the crack pipe here:

Tweak Practiced Brawler to allow resist damage.  This would allow the +def and +resist IOs in there, but since it's a clickie they might not be permanent (depending on the IO).

Combine two of the toggles and add in "Swift Bandages", a self-heal.  Arguably The Flash is the ultimate SR and has super fast regeneration.

 

Edited September 6, 2020 by ninja surprise

[Troo]

6 minutes ago, ninja surprise said:

going crazy with the crack pipe

 

[modest]

1 hour ago, Haijinx said:

Mom and Dad: What do you want for Xmas DJ? 

Kid:  A Porshe! 

Mom and Dad:  Uhm.. Maybe a Bicycle? 

Kid:  How about a Mustang! 

Mom and Dad:  We could do a Scooter?  

Kid:  KEWL! But I want a Brand New One.  And not some cheapo model either.  Maybe a Ducati .. 

 

Captain Powerhouse probably be like "My wife wouldn't even let me get a new pair of cross trainers"

I request that you limit your roleplaying to other threads. This is a suggestion thread in the Suggestions & Feedback subsection of the forums. There is a roleplaying subforum that would likely welcome you. They tend to be quite friendly over there. I'm not sure if Captain Powerhouse will be willing to role play as your cross-trainer-desiring spouse, but it can't hurt to politely ask. Good luck!

[Haijinx]

1 hour ago, modest said:

I request that you limit your roleplaying to other threads. This is a suggestion thread in the Suggestions & Feedback subsection of the forums. There is a roleplaying subforum that would likely welcome you. They tend to be quite friendly over there. I'm not sure if Captain Powerhouse will be willing to role play as your cross-trainer-desiring spouse, but it can't hurt to politely ask. Good luck!

The point was people like to ask for all sorts of crazy crap.  But crazy crap never gets implemented.  Small incremental changes *sometimes* occur but people rarely suggest those, and they don't seem the ones making suggestions in this subforum.  

 

Think about the various issues.  At no point in the history of City of Heroes issues have such sweeping changes been made to a powerset as has been suggested in this thread.  Not even Regen has had the kind of overhaul you are proposing.  And Regen is so bad it gave us Willpower.  

 

But hey, if attacking me makes you feel better,  Knock yourself out.   

 

 

 

 

 

[modest]

7 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

But hey, if attacking me makes you feel better,  Knock yourself out.  

I sincerely apologize if my request came across as an attack. It was not my intention to limit your expression. In no way  do I want to discourage you from pursuing your hobby, but this is not the right venue for role play. There is a subforum that is exclusively devoted to role playing, and it is my experience as a player on Everlasting that role players are very welcoming! "Haijinx" would be an adorable name for a catgirl/catboy/catperson. 🙂

 

14 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

The point was people like to ask for all sorts of crazy crap.  But crazy crap never gets implemented.  Small incremental changes *sometimes* occur but people rarely suggest those, and they don't seem the ones making suggestions in this subforum.  

 

Think about the various issues.  At no point in the history of City of Heroes issues have such sweeping changes been made to a powerset as has been suggested in this thread.  Not even Regen has had the kind of overhaul you are proposing.  And Regen is so bad it gave us Willpower. 

Energy Aura received a revamp in Issue 21 as a response to player forum feedback. Invulnerability received an update in issue 3 and a significant overhaul in issue 13.

[Haijinx]

2 minutes ago, modest said:

I sincerely apologize if my request came across as an attack. It was not my intention to limit your expression. In no way  do I want to discourage you from pursuing your hobby, but this is not the right venue for role play. There is a subforum that is exclusively devoted to role playing, and it is my experience as a player on Everlasting that role players are very welcoming! "Haijinx" would be an adorable name for a catgirl/catboy/catperson. 🙂

 

I'll give you a 9/10 on the Passive Aggressive scale, its nearly as good as something my mother would say.  But we should probably deduct overall points for the implied attack on my sexuality.  Which doesn't really bother me, but its a rather passe line of attack these days.  

 

======

Energy Aura had a pretty decent revamp, true.  Nothing like this.   And Energy Aura was a notably poor performer.  SR isn't.    And even after this, two of its best powers *also* come very late into the build.  Energize was a big part of the buff and it comes at the same level as Evasion.  And many still think SR is better than Energy Aura after the boost.  And finally Capt Powerhouse seems to have suggested that EA was overbuffed anyway, and thus not portable to tankers in its current form.          

 

Interesting you mention Invulnerability since it has some of the same issues SR supposedly does.  No END recovery power and Invincibility coming pretty late. 

 

 

[modest]

3 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

I'll give you a 9/10 on the Passive Aggressive scale, its nearly as good as something my mother would say.  But we should probably deduct overall points for the implied attack on my sexuality.  Which doesn't really bother me, but its a rather passe line of attack these days. 

I seriously don't understand how I've offended you, and I did not mean to assume your gender or sexuality. I think that it's best if I stop replying to your posts as we're clearly not on the same page, and at this point I'm confused. I apologize again.

[GM Tock]

I have no idea what any of that has to do with the topic, to be honest.

 

How about sticking to game suggestions? 😄

[Troo]

as I said to the same topic in March:

On 3/11/2020 at 9:50 AM, Troo said:

Okay, since there won't be such sweeping changes to Super Reflexes. What would you like your 'new' power set called?

On 3/11/2020 at 10:53 AM, modest said:

I suspect that this is an attempt at humor..

..nope

 

I'll rephrase that March comment as:

 

Such changes aren't going to happen.

You might have a better chance at creating a new power set with the way you think it should be.

 

and, again from March

 

I am not saying the ideas are bad or good. It's just not Super Reflexes.

Trying to take unique sets and generic them to match other sets... well, I do take issue with trying to make different power sets homogeneous.

 

I also still feel this suggestion is a bit disingenuous.

Your claim: 'this isn't really a change' but presenting suggestions that move powers, delete powers, and add new powers.

 

Edited September 7, 2020 by Troo

[Bill Z Bubba]

I'm fine with the power order being tweaked. Scrappers absolutely get evasion far too late. I'm fine with melee SR getting the exact Sent treatment regarding PB and MB, where PB remains exactly as it is or you can choose the click +absorb and the mez protection gets moved to the toggles.

 

I'm not keen on any of the other proposed changes.

[modest]

1 hour ago, Troo said:

as I said to the same topic in March:

..nope

 

I'll rephrase that March comment as:

 

Such changes aren't going to happen.

You might have a better chance at creating a new power set with the way you think it should be.

 

and, again from March

 

I am not saying the ideas are bad or good. It's just not Super Reflexes.

Trying to take unique sets and generic them to match other sets... well, I do take issue with trying to make different power sets homogeneous.

 

I also still feel this suggestion is a bit disingenuous.

Your claim: 'this isn't really a change' but presenting suggestions that move powers, delete powers, and add new powers.

I understand your point of view, and I acknowledge that your point of view is valid, but I disagree with it.

 

The Homecoming developers have already displayed a willingness to alter existing power sets to improve player experience. They have already rearranged powers in several sets. For example, they rearranged AOE attacks in many of the Tanker melee sets. The power "Enduring" that we are suggesting be added to the melee version of Super Reflexes already exists in the Sentinel version of Super Reflexes. The Sentinel version receives a larger absorb shield than the one that we are suggesting.

 

Again, I understand your point of view, but I respectfully disagree.

 

8 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

I'm fine with the power order being tweaked. Scrappers absolutely get evasion far too late. I'm fine with melee SR getting the exact Sent treatment regarding PB and MB, where PB remains exactly as it is or you can choose the click +absorb and the mez protection gets moved to the toggles.

 

I'm not keen on any of the other proposed changes.

The only proposed change beyond what you mentioned is the addition of a new power in the tier 8 slot. However, if you have a better idea for what should be done with that slot then I would appreciate your feedback.

[Bill Z Bubba]

2 minutes ago, modest said:

The only proposed change beyond what you mentioned is the addition of a new power in the tier 8 slot. However, if you have a better idea for what should be done with that slot then I would appreciate your feedback.

I see no reason to combine the other powers thus freeing up that slot. Having played SR on a Sent, I think it went overboard. It does feel like something that isn't SR.

Melee SR doesn't need enduring. It's overkill.

 

Edit 2: And, yes, other sets with click mez protection should be given the same option.

Edited September 7, 2020 by Bill Z Bubba

[modest]

Just now, Bill Z Bubba said:

I see no reason to combine the other powers thus freeing up that slot.

Would you rather that Super Reflexes keep the three passive powers and not get Enduring? Or would you suggest that two of the passive powers be merged (as they were in the Sentinel set) and that the newly-available slot be filled with Enduring?

 

Our goal is to add Enduring to the set without changing the defense values, defense debuff resistance values, or scaling resistance values values. That requires freeing up a slot. The Sentinel version solved this by merging two of the passive powers. Enduring takes defense sets, so it provides the same slotting options for set bonuses as the passive that was removed.

[Bill Z Bubba]

Just now, modest said:

Would you rather that Super Reflexes keep the three passive powers and not get Enduring?

Again, I see no need for enduring. Does Invul have some kind of +end power? If SR gets to combine passives and get a Sent based +recovery, shouldn't Invul? Shouldn't Shield? Like SR, it doesn't get end recovery until the T9. Of course, Shield's T9 isn't a steaming pile of uselessness like Elude and Unstoppable.

 

I get what you're going for. I also get Troo's distaste for altering the set too much.

 

It's actually easier for me to make the argument that Bio and Rad armors provide far too much in the "extra" department, as do ALL of the Sentinel armors, and to perhaps nerf them all, rather than continuing down the road of power creep and making already godlike sets even godlier.

[modest]

15 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

Again, I see no need for enduring. Does Invul have some kind of +end power? If SR gets to combine passives and get a Sent based +recovery, shouldn't Invul? Shouldn't Shield? Like SR, it doesn't get end recovery until the T9. Of course, Shield's T9 isn't a steaming pile of uselessness like Elude and Unstoppable.

 

I get what you're going for. I also get Troo's distaste for altering the set too much.

 

It's actually easier for me to make the argument that Bio and Rad armors provide far too much in the "extra" department, as do ALL of the Sentinel armors, and to perhaps nerf them all, rather than continuing down the road of power creep and making already godlike sets even godlier.

Thank you for your perspective. 👍

[Haijinx]

2 hours ago, Troo said:

 

As I said in March.. actually I rephrase:

 

Such changes aren't going to happen.

You'd have a better chance at creating a new power set with the way you 'think' it should be.

 

Which was my point.  Changes to powers and powersets tend towards as minor as is feasible.   And what equals "minor" usually depends on how the set is performing.  SR is competitive.  Its not where Regen is.  Its not where Energy Aura was.   The ones that actually get made anyway.  

 

Your point about the new set basically what Willpower is to Regen.   

 

The worst part about SR in my opinion is how late AOE protection comes for Scrappers vs Brutes (35 vs 20), they obviously recognized this was an issue when they ported SR to Brutes.  

 

Having played both, the Brute progression is far better.  That one change means a lot.  

Edited September 7, 2020 by Haijinx

[Troo]

There's a fine line between making an adjustment and overreach.

I do appreciate your tolerance for differing opinions.

 

Maybe you @modest or @Bopper can explain the weaknesses in the proposed?

 

Edited September 7, 2020 by Troo

[Bopper]

14 hours ago, Troo said:

There's a fine line between making an adjustment and overreach.

I do appreciate your tolerance for differing opinions.

 

Maybe you @modest or @Bopper can explain the weaknesses in the proposed?

 

The proposed suggestion was intended to limit weaknesses. Are you wanting an explanation of what the weaknesses of Super Reflexes currently is? If so, I think Modest already covered it, but I can try to summarize the best I can.

 

Super Reflexes is mostly a one-trick pony, but it does that trick REALLY WELL. You get Defense and you get DDR. That's great. You also get a scaling resistance to most damage types which can be nice, but when you need it most it's usually too late. There are no other layers of survivability in the set. No additional HP, no additional regeneration, no heal, no absorb, and no enhanceable resistance (just the scaling resistance that kicks in at 60% health). Also keep in mind, that scaling resistance does not include psionic damage nor toxic damage.

 

Also, for all that the set does well, it does take a lot of slots to get there. All your Defense and DDR comes from 6 powers (3 toggles, 3 autos), which you'll need. Your mez protection is not included and comes in the form of a click. That leaves Quickness and Elude as your skippable powers, but let's be honest...you're not skipping Quickness. 

 

Now, let's go back to one of the comments Modest was making. When you get your defense in comparison to other sets. I'll use Scrapper as the example.

 

I picked these 3 as they use Positional Defenses. You can see that Shield and Ninjitsu each have a significant portion of all 3 positional defenses by level 2, wheras Super Reflexes doesn't get its first bits of AoE defense until level 28, and it's small. Ninjitsu is especially neat as it gets all of its sets positional defenses by level 4 and all of its DDR by level 2 (although it's a relatively small amount, especially when compared to Super Reflexes. So long story short, the biggest problem Super Reflexes has at the moment is when you get your AoE Defense. The Brute version is better for this, as it gets its big AoE toggle at level 20 instead of level 35. This is still very late, but at least it's something.

 

The biggest thing to take away is the fact that the majority of the defense these other sets get are generated from only 2 powers, both of which are made available by level 2. The remaining defense these other sets get are generated with one power. So to recap, Shield and Ninja gets all their defenses in 3 powers, Super Reflexes gets all their defenses in 6 powers. Ninjitsu and Shield combine their AoE and Range defenses into one power, Super Reflexes does not. This allocates more utility for these other sets (resistance, HP, heal, etc), while Super Reflexes gets extra DDR and unenhanceable scaling resistances to S/L/F/C/E/N. Don't get me wrong, it's good, still. But RNG can still beat you, and having to allocate so many powerset choices to do one trick is a little disappointing.

 

All that being said, let me get on my soap box for a second. This is the Suggestion Forums. These are just suggestions. Ideas for developers to consider as possibilities to make improvements. It's not realistic to think everything proposed in the OP is going to be fully embraced by the developers and Super Reflexes gets a total revamp. What is realistic is to have some of the problems with the set be addressed and to have ways to address those problems presented. Ok, off the soapbox. Let's get back to discussing these suggestions.

 

Modest made the suggestion to instead of having the 3 autos do its small amounts of DDR plus scaling resistances, make it 2 auto powers, with the same amount of DDR and scaling resistances split evenly between the two while throwing in some Psionic Defense (which is a hole for the set as there is no resistance and some Psi attacks are positionless) and to add in some recovery. Personally, I don't think the endurance consumption is the reason why recovery should be added, I think it should be added because it's thematic. I picture super reflexes a lot like super speed, and folks who can move that fast would naturally be able to recover energy faster. Honestly, I could see many ways to go about this 2nd power. Instead of recovery, how about an absorb toggle that works similar to Blaster versions. You could have a quick refreshing (but not stacking) absorb shield that wouldn't be too strong (5% of base HP?). Theis would be thematic to super reflexes as you can react to an attack by moving with the hit, thus making the impact lessened and the damage less severe. Just a thought.

 

This still leaves us with one power slot. Personally, I just like the idea of giving Super Reflexes a speed attack. But it could be something else. I will say, I am a sucker for theme, so I won't suggest something like a Heal just because SR doesn't have a heal and could use one. Modest did suggest a slow Toggle in the OP, if I recall and that could work, both as an extra layer of survival mitigation while still being thematic (you move faster than them, basically). 

 

Anyways, this rant has probably gone on long enough. If you have ideas on how you would address the problems that do exist in the set, feel free to share. If it's perfect as is, and having AoE defense come in your 20s is fine, that is certainly an argument that could be had. Also, maybe the solution something else entirely. Maybe it's Quickness that gets a look at. Who knows? That's why we're here though. Share your suggestion.

Edited September 7, 2020 by Bopper

[Sovera]

I try to stay off these Suggestion forums because we get a bunch of non devs piping in arguing against the changes for this or that reason.

 

I'm not even sure why? They are not devs. Their arguing will make no impact. We already know the devs instate things based off their own metrics and decisions. A dev piping in (and I do miss Capt Powerhouse coming to threads and posting their point of view. The game is a duller thing ever since he stopped) might say 'I see your point, but, actually, none of this seems to be a problem in actual game-play. We have X% of players SR which is a sizable chunk of the population. On the other hand we only have Z% and Y% playing Stone Armor and Regen, so we are looking at those first'.

 

It is not influenced by gut feelings or feelings in general. Certainly not because of a faction of players arguing against another faction. If a dev happens to inspect said suggestion and decides to implement it then it is implemented no matter the number of nay sayers arguing against it.

 

 

These are the suggestion forums just like Bopper said. Suggestions are thrown like clay to a wall. Some may stick (some. I'm not really sure any of it has ever stuck? Someone correct me. I used to browse these and I don't recall one suggestion at the top of my mind being put in the game, even seemingly easy ones like the no common&uncommon salvage option less alone more difficult but equally very welcome ones such as upping the number of things we can toss into the AH to 100 instead of 10 (not having to repeat 78 times moving 10 Converters to the AH would have been nice a few days ago)), and some may not.

[Lines]

Echo-ish Sovera. When people bring in the "Not worth the limited Dev Time" or similar argument, it's just hot air. (Though the discussion here isn't dead-ended, as some get)

 

I like this forum for the ideas, though. Even if not implemented, they're fun to think about.

 

HAVING SAID THAT:

I think the proposed changes would make for a really cool set, but kinda of an extreme change when taken as a whole. I don't think SR is perfect, for reasons stated, but I also don't think that powersets should be ironed out to perfection - situational weaknesses make the game a game. I just see things like late AoE defence as the cross we have to bear for the best positional defence set, rather than bad game design. Though I wouldn't lose any sleep if Evasion found its way further down the levels for scrappers one day.

 

Consolidating the three auto powers is a cool idea, though, and might go at least an insy winsy bit of the way towards dealing with the above. I do like the thought of a slow toggle debuff like Reaction Time. Less sure about adding a charge attack to an armour set, but I suppose shield charge is a thing. Does Super Reflexes thematically equate well enough to Super Speed to work that in?

 

Edit: thinking about it, the cottage rule kicks in hard. Having a lot of spaces for defence sets could be seen as a major strength of the set that you'd be removing, especially for a skippable slow power.

 

Though my MA/SR scrapper wouldn't say no to an AoE damage power...

Edited September 7, 2020 by Lines

[Xanatos]

13 hours ago, modest said:

I request that you limit your roleplaying to other threads. This is a suggestion thread in the Suggestions & Feedback subsection of the forums. There is a roleplaying subforum that would likely welcome you. They tend to be quite friendly over there. I'm not sure if Captain Powerhouse will be willing to role play as your cross-trainer-desiring spouse, but it can't hurt to politely ask. Good luck!

 

To be fair to Haijinx, this entire thread/subforum is just people RPing at being devs.

Edited September 7, 2020 by Xanatos

[Haijinx]

4 hours ago, Bopper said:

Anyways, this rant has probably gone on long enough. If you have ideas on how you would address the problems that do exist in the set, feel free to share. If it's perfect as is, and having AoE defense come in your 20s is fine, that is certainly an argument that could be had. Also, maybe the solution something else entirely. Maybe it's Quickness that gets a look at. Who knows? That's why we're here though. Share your suggestion.

I think this is the core of the disconnect.  

 

All sets have "problems", COH is a quirky kludge job from a game design standpoint.   The "problems" in many ways amount to the sets weaknesses.  All sets need them.  Otherwise everyone will just play the best set.  

 

Which this proposal would likely establish SR as.  

[Lockpick]

On 9/4/2020 at 3:48 PM, modest said:

In my opinion, Super Reflexes suffers from a few problems:

1. The order in which Super Reflexes receives its toggles and unique abilities differs from every other defense set in a way that negatively impacts Super Reflexes at low levels.
2. Three out of the nine powers that Super Reflexes receives are passive powers that accomplish the same thing that other defense sets accomplish with a single power.
3. Super Reflexes is inherently endurance hungry and no method of recovering endurance.
4. Super Reflexes has no method of recovering after taking damage.

 

I was thinking about this thread as I was playing my latest character (Staff/SR Stalker).  I agree with most your points listed, but to me it comes down to 2 core issues: AoE defense comes very late and SR feels like an Endurance heavy set that requires outside of the set endurance solutions.  As an example, if I am playing a SR Stalker I am almost always going to take either Body or Weapon for the extra endurance.

 

My suggestion is that combining Evasion into Focused Senses may solve both problems.  You get your AoE defense early and you have one less toggle to run, so that possibly fixes the 2 core issues.  I don't think moving Evasion up really solves the problem because you then have 3 toggles early in the game with no way to resolve the end issue and that makes it even more draining.

 

A lot of good suggestions to replace Evasion.  I like the Burst of Speed suggestion.

 

I am not sure why a well meaning thread is getting derailed.  It is not like this thread was put out there as a blatant power grab.  There was a great deal of thought put into the suggestion and both Modest and Bopper are both pretty well known to be reasonable and numbers oriented.  While a lot of people may be happy with the set as is there is no harm in talking about suggestions for improvement.

 

While I overall think SR is a good set and I play it a lot, I still have challenges with it.  One challenge I forgot that I have is PB.  I would much prefer Master Brawler.  I would also be okay with allowing some slight resistance in the toggles or passive to allow Resist IO slotting.  This might alleviate the need to go the Fighting routing and open up new build possibilities.

 

[tidge]

5 hours ago, Sovera said:

I try to stay off these Suggestion forums because we get a bunch of non devs piping in arguing against the changes for this or that reason.

 

I'm not even sure why? They are not devs. Their arguing will make no impact. We already know the devs instate things based off their own metrics and decisions.

/agree

 

I participate (read, reply, occasionally initiate) primarily because I like to see how other players think about the game. Occasionally I see some good advice about how to approach XXX. Every once in a while I will proselytize (Energy Melee improvement, hmmm....kay?) or dogpile on something that strikes me like a poorly-motivated idea.

 

Specific to this thread, as I play my /SR stalker I agree with this core observation:

6 hours ago, Bopper said:

Super Reflexes is mostly a one-trick pony, but it does that trick REALLY WELL. You get Defense and you get DDR. That's great. You also get a scaling resistance to most damage types which can be nice, but when you need it most it's usually too late. There are no other layers of survivability in the set. No additional HP, no additional regeneration, no heal, no absorb, and no enhanceable resistance (just the scaling resistance that kicks in at 60% health). Also keep in mind, that scaling resistance does not include psionic damage nor toxic damage.

Not included in the above quote is the observation that positional AoE Defense comes REALLY late in the set.

 

If I get my Stalker to 50 and reconfigure the build with all that tricks available to a lvl 50, I'm sure it will play better in low-level content. As I level this character up (primarily solo, but fooling around with difficulty settings) I'm finding it to be much more of a challenge to survive content with this high DPS toon than I have with others. I can afford to apply IO sets to this character, but the nature of the powers in the secondary aren't allowing me to smooth out the experience like I have using different power sets. I can adjust to the different expectations, but they are much more different for this power set than others I have played.

[Bill Z Bubba]

5 hours ago, Sovera said:

I try to stay off these Suggestion forums because we get a bunch of non devs piping in arguing against the changes for this or that reason.

 

I'm not even sure why? They are not devs. Their arguing will make no impact. We already know the devs instate things based off their own metrics and decisions. A dev piping in (and I do miss Capt Powerhouse coming to threads and posting their point of view. The game is a duller thing ever since he stopped) might say 'I see your point, but, actually, none of this seems to be a problem in actual game-play. We have X% of players SR which is a sizable chunk of the population. On the other hand we only have Z% and Y% playing Stone Armor and Regen, so we are looking at those first'.

Because it's a bunch of nondevs making the suggestions in the first place and there's zero difference between the two?