How do you defend against endurance drains?

[res1972]

Hi guys! Long time lurker, first time poster. 🙂

 

I am here to seek help from the experts on this one. 

 

My tanks/brutes/scrappers, really every class I play all have the same problem... Carnies, Arachnos, etc. They drain my endurance, detoggle me and I can either run or die.

 

According to Mids, rad has 86% EDR, invul has 25%, bio has 69%. Yet my tw/bio scrapper that I've spent like a bill inf on, still has it happen to him - just like all my other toons.

 

How much EDR is enough?

 

I am at a loss as to how to prevent it and I am looking to the experts (tanker boards) for some help, advice, etc.

 

Oh, and I I've tried using the Ageless T4 radial with debuff resistance on my tw/bio scrapper and on my ss/sr brute, but it still happens. How do you guys deal with it?

 

Thanks in advance!

Edited September 11, 2020 by res1972
Clarifying

[Sovera]

1 hour ago, res1972 said:

Hi guys! Long time lurker, first time poster. 🙂

 

I am here to seek help from the experts on this one. 

 

My tanks/brutes/scrappers, really every class I play all have the same problem... Carnies, Arachnos, etc. They drain my endurance, detoggle me and I can either run or die.

 

According to Mids, rad has 86% EDR, invul has 25%, bio has 69%. Yet my tw/bio scrapper that I've spent like a bill inf on, still has it happen to him - just like all my other toons.

 

How much EDR is enough?

 

I am at a loss as to how to prevent it and I am looking to the experts (tanker boards) for some help, advice, etc.

 

Oh, and I I've tried using the Ageless T4 radial with debuff resistance on my tw/bio scrapper and on my ss/sr brute, but it still happens. How do you guys deal with it?

 

Thanks in advance!

The simplest way is having energy defense since sapping attacks usually comes in the shape of attacks. If it does not land then it does not sap. But some of those are auto-hit like a Super Stunner's ressurect or a Carnie's death.

 

The second way is having overwhelming amounts of recovery. It's not perfect but Rad is an endurance faucet with Particle Shielding used on CD and Radiation Therapy with a Theft of Essence proc. Bio can use DNA Siphon on corpses and it also takes a Theft of Essence proc (these make all the difference btw). On top of these we can purchase Recovery Serums from the P2W vendor to give our recovery a major boost. I did Katie Hannon a couple days ago and my whole team was being detoggled like mad as the constant spam of Lightning Storm sapped them but between Consume and Recovery Serum I coasted along.

 

The third way is using Base Empowerments (https://archive.paragonwiki.com/wiki/Empowerment_Station_Buff_Recipes_and_Ingredients) which is the sole place we can actually obtain endurance drain resist (don't quote me though). It's only 20%, but, you can also purchase the 17% recovery boost from there as well as these buffs cost absolute peanuts and last for an hour and a half.

 

Edited September 11, 2020 by Sovera

[res1972]

Thanks for the reply, Sovera. I appreciate the info. So how much end drain resistance is enough? You would think the 69% bio gets and then adding T4 Ageless Radial which puts him at 154.2% would be enough...but it's clearly not as he got sapped and detoggled this morning by a group of carnies over and over. I then tried the same group on my ss/sr brute who has all positional defenses in the 50's and he got sapped and detoggled by them as well. Maybe it's the +4 diff. but I've never had any problems with end drains before today. So odd...

[Sovera]

You can't add more other than the base empowerments so you have to live with what you have. Carnies do it automatically when they die and it is tough with meleers to avoid it since they die in melee range, it's auto-hit (thus bypassing SR's defenses), and they aaaaaaaaaall doooooo eeeeeeeeet. Sappers are the easiest to deal with: kill them first. They are minion level and should die in 2-3 hits.

 

But be mindful that you do not mistake endurance debuff resistance and recovery debuff resistance. Bio gives you 86% to endurance debuffs, which is great against a sapper taking a big gulp of your blue bar, but it has 0% against recovery debuffs which is what Super Stunners do (and everyone who does electric attacks, including some enemies in Arachnos). Fire Armor also has something like close to 100% against endurance drain, but 0% against recovery debuffs.

 

Rad Armor gives you 86% to both Recovery and Endurance drains which means that coupled with Radiation Therapy with a Essence Theft proc you should never be in problem. When ever you are at 25% or so just use RT and you're back to full. Between 86% resistance and RT being back up in 20 or so seconds you should be fine.

 

 

With your Bio Armor character what I recommend you to do is:

 

- Grab Recovery Serums. They are very cheap at 10k a charge so just buy max stacks (50) and when fighting things that sap like Carnies use it when ever it is up (don't wait until you are drained to use it).

- Put an Essence Theft proc in DNA Siphon. This ensures even in a small crowd of 3-4 enemies there is a good chance you'll boost up to a full bar (mainly try to use it on a pile of corpses to boost your Recovery. Using it on live targets just gives you a small bite of blue bar instead). DNA Siphon is an easy skill to overlook since Bio is starved for slots and the skill is a one slot wonder, but it's a great place to get some easy bonuses and incidentally buff its recharge.

- If you know you are going to face troublesome sapping foes (not Council or whatever easy faction) then spend the literal two-minutes-by-the-clock to buy some white salvage and use the SG base macro to quickly boost your resistance to debuff and your recovery with the base empowerments.

Edited September 16, 2020 by Sovera

[Haijinx]

Kill the Sapper!

 

 

[Biff Pow]

It varies by powerset, but also look at any crowd control options you have that you might have skipped over because you thought you didn't need them. I've learned to really like Handclap (with the KB to KD IO) against enemies with debuffs and drains.

[Nemu]

High energy defense/ranged defense is the solution against powers that need to hit you like sappers or mu bolts.

 

Jousting is how you solve your problem with super stunners and carnies draining you when they die.

 

Hop/run away from the target right before you activate the killing blow and let your momentum carry you away. You need to practice the timing. Try it with single target attacks first. Once you get comfortable with that try pbaoes, once you get comfortable with pbaoes then try ground based pbaoes. Try this with blaster pbaoe nukes, you will never play the game the same way after you learn how to do this.

 

This is far more effective and fluid with combat jumping. Superspeed/speed of sound is a bonus but not necessary.

Edited September 12, 2020 by Nemu

[Parabola]

I'm increasingly of the opinion that rad armour is the answer to more or less everything.

[Infinitum]

17 hours ago, res1972 said:

Hi guys! Long time lurker, first time poster. 🙂

 

I am here to seek help from the experts on this one. 

 

My tanks/brutes/scrappers, really every class I play all have the same problem... Carnies, Arachnos, etc. They drain my endurance, detoggle me and I can either run or die.

 

According to Mids, rad has 86% EDR, invul has 25%, bio has 69%. Yet my tw/bio scrapper that I've spent like a bill inf on, still has it happen to him - just like all my other toons.

 

How much EDR is enough?

 

I am at a loss as to how to prevent it and I am looking to the experts (tanker boards) for some help, advice, etc.

 

Oh, and I I've tried using the Ageless T4 radial with debuff resistance on my tw/bio scrapper and on my ss/sr brute, but it still happens. How do you guys deal with it?

 

Thanks in advance!

Can you post your build?  You shouldnt be having that issue on any of your builds especially with ageless.

[Werner]

Repeating some of what was said, and generalizing away from your specific build, and recognizing that you probably wouldn't do every one of these on a single character...

• Play a primary or secondary with endurance tools like resistance or recovery or drains of their own.
• Go Energy Mastery for your epic to pick up Conserve Power and Physical Perfection.
• Performance Shifter anywhere you can.
• Calculate how much endurance your attacks will use when attacking without pause, add to your toggles, and tune your build so that you don't just have sustainable endurance while fighting, but net positive.
• Be aware of what toggles you need and don't need against which enemies, or even within a specific fight. When under serious pressure, I will be detoggling and retoggling powers as necessary in addition to everything else I'm doing. For instance leave Tactics off, but monitor your last hit chance and to hit bonus. If you get blinded or see your hit chance drop, toggle up. If you're hitting fine and not blinded and there's no to hit debuff, but your endurance is dropping, turn it back off. 
• Ageless Core or Ageless Radial. I've never taken Core, but Radial gives you full endurance immediately, which lets you recover from a nasty drain, and then gives you debuff resistance, which helps you weather recovery debuffs.
• High defense so that drains don't hit you.
• Recovery serum.
• Blues.
• Base empowerment buffs.

[res1972]

6 hours ago, Infinitum said:

Can you post your build?  You shouldn't be having that issue on any of your builds especially with ageless.

Here is the SS/SR Brute

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Here is the TW/Bio Scrapper

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I have never had endurance problems on either of them before. I am getting ready to take them both back against some +4 Carnies to see how they do today and see if yesterday was just some strange occurrence.

Edited September 12, 2020 by res1972
Export problems

[HelenCarnate]

Carnie death is not auto hit.  High AoE defense decreases the odds of getting hit with that.  Not sure of the type but I know AoE helps. 

[VV]

20 hours ago, Haijinx said:

Kill the Sapper!

This is the clear best answer. No reason not to kill the End blaster first. And they are usually pretty wimpy.

 

But, I'll tell you a secret, Consume gives the caster massive end drain resistance for 2 minutes.

[Tsuko]

5 hours ago, Werner said:

Repeating some of what was said, and generalizing away from your specific build, and recognizing that you probably wouldn't do every one of these on a single character...

• Play a primary or secondary with endurance tools like resistance or recovery or drains of their own.
• Go Energy Mastery for your epic to pick up Conserve Power and Physical Perfection.
• Performance Shifter anywhere you can.
• Calculate how much endurance your attacks will use when attacking without pause, add to your toggles, and tune your build so that you don't just have sustainable endurance while fighting, but net positive.
• Be aware of what toggles you need and don't need against which enemies, or even within a specific fight. When under serious pressure, I will be detoggling and retoggling powers as necessary in addition to everything else I'm doing. For instance leave Tactics off, but monitor your last hit chance and to hit bonus. If you get blinded or see your hit chance drop, toggle up. If you're hitting fine and not blinded and there's no to hit debuff, but your endurance is dropping, turn it back off. 
• Ageless Core or Ageless Radial. I've never taken Core, but Radial gives you full endurance immediately, which lets you recover from a nasty drain, and then gives you debuff resistance, which helps you weather recovery debuffs.
• High defense so that drains don't hit you.
• Recovery serum.
• Blues.
• Base empowerment buffs.

- Play Rad Armor.

 

😄

[decomposeyfarm]

My tanker is Electric Armor, and it has a lot of built in Endurance and Recovery resistance, which I increased not on purpose but because it came from the same powers as other stats I wanted to up. I'm sitting at 216% Endurance resistance, and 129% Recovery resistance. Its probably overkill!

 

But one of the Scirocco patron arc missions was 100% Mu, and I ran it on +4x8 without any problems, and I can pretty much ignore sappers while carnie deaths do nothing to me.

 

So Rad armor isn't the -only- answer here 😄

[Bill Z Bubba]

23 hours ago, HelenCarnate said:

Carnie death is not auto hit.  High AoE defense decreases the odds of getting hit with that.  Not sure of the type but I know AoE helps. 

Wasn't sure so I said nothing, but the Bills have never had an issue with carnie death drain. I love SR.

[kiramon]

13 hours ago, decomposeyfarm said:

My tanker is Electric Armor, and it has a lot of built in Endurance and Recovery resistance, which I increased not on purpose but because it came from the same powers as other stats I wanted to up. I'm sitting at 216% Endurance resistance, and 129% Recovery resistance. Its probably overkill!

 

But one of the Scirocco patron arc missions was 100% Mu, and I ran it on +4x8 without any problems, and I can pretty much ignore sappers while carnie deaths do nothing to me.

 

So Rad armor isn't the -only- answer here 😄

I stick to electric and rad purely because of end drainers. My WP is just useless vs end drain

[Haijinx]

20 hours ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

Wasn't sure so I said nothing, but the Bills have never had an issue with carnie death drain. I love SR.

I never have problems with Energy Aura either.  

 

Course that is on a stalker that get AOE with hide .. IDK.  

Edited September 14, 2020 by Haijinx

[VV]

Nor I with Fiery Armor.

[MTeague]

Consume in Fiery gives you 2 minutes of 50% end drain resistance, which is quite nice. 

 

In Epic Pools, "Conserve Power" was an Old Standby to survive crashes back in the days when people used T9's.

It can still save your bacon if you get Sapped.

 

Also, don't forget certain team buffs

• Force Fields:  Remember that Support set everyone pans as useless?   It provides Endurance Drain resistance, too.
• Storm Summoning:   O2 Boost:   that weak single target heal stormies get?  Provides 75% Endurance Drain resistance
• Electric Affinity:  Faraday Cage.  tougher for tanks, since you ideally want the protection at all times, but Elec Affin is good at spiking your recovery as well

admittedly, a lot of players are focused on a "solo solution", and, granted, self-sufficiency is nice, but... we're allowed to team, too 🙂

[Sovera]

5 hours ago, MTeague said:

Consume in Fiery gives you 2 minutes of 50% end drain resistance, which is quite nice. 

 

Slotted for endurance it goes to 96%.

Edited September 15, 2020 by Sovera

[MTeague]

1 hour ago, Sovera said:

Slotted for endurance it goes to 96%.

*very* interesting, I didn't realize slotting affected the end drain resist as well as the end gained.

[Sovera]

11 hours ago, MTeague said:

*very* interesting, I didn't realize slotting affected the end drain resist as well as the end gained.

Actually it's best not to quote me. I went to check just in case I was saying something dumb and the power attributes does not show the endurance debuff and the tooltip says 50%. I'm sure I saw the 96% -somewhere- but I must have mistaken it. I do know it certainly feels like more than just 50% since my blue bar ignores sapping when I use Consume, but, I have no tangible proof of this.

 

Edit: Ah, found it. The tooltip of the power itself and not the tooltip of the buff.

 

Edited September 15, 2020 by Sovera

[tidge]

On 9/11/2020 at 4:48 PM, Sovera said:

You can't add more other than the base empowerments so you have to live with what you have.

There has been great advice, I just wanted to add some advice about Endurance and Recovery:

 

Increasing your Max Endurance helps by giving you a higher base to play with, which in turn helps with Recovery. Max Endurance can be increased with Accolades, Day Jobs (Duelist?) as well as what was mentioned already in this thread. Be aware that some of the +Recovery Day jobs effects are 'outside of combat' I can't recall if there is an IO set bonus that increases MaxEnd; typically IO sets either provide Endurance Discounts (yay!) or Recovery bonuses (every little bit helps).

 

In terms of play-style, be aware of what you are spending Endurance on. I like to keep Sprint & Ninja Run toggled for almost all of my toons... but before I can get my Endurance situation under control I will often toggle these off. For Tankers, there is no reason not to slot Endurance reduction in Sprint. If for some reason you want a Sprint with a Stealth enhancement, you can use one of the Prestige Sprints. You may also have to slow down your attack chain. Fights can be frustrating for Tanks, but that's a common issue especially at low levels.

 

Recovery is like Regeneration in that a higher number decreases the amount of time between ticks to refill the blue/green bar. It should be noted that because of the actual formula, adding a more Recovery/Regeneration is a game of diminishing returns, especially considering that the Fitness Pool is inherent. Even so, since all AT 'spend the blue', I value Recovery more than Regeneration... but as this is the Tanker subforum, I should note that Regeneration considerations are important for Tankers (and their higher base HP).

[ninja surprise]

On 9/11/2020 at 2:48 PM, Sovera said:

You can't add more other than the base empowerments so you have to live with what you have. Carnies do it automatically when they die and it is tough with meleers to avoid it since they die in melee range, it's auto-hit (thus bypassing SR's defenses), and they aaaaaaaaaall doooooo eeeeeeeeet. Sappers are the easiest to deal with: kill them first. They are minion level and should die in 2-3 hits.

 

It isn't autohit but looks like it has a bonus to-hit. This is on a 50+1 Super Reflexes / Electric Melee tank vs lvl 54 Carnies in a PI radio mission.

SR can usually dodge Carnie deaths and Sappers all day long, but sometimes they get that lucky hit and then it's Practiced Brawler and Elude to the rescue!

Edit: for clarification on Practiced Brawler: it's a clickie mez protection so doesn't drop when your endurance runs out, only when it needs to recharge.

 

Bronze Strongman MISSES! Psychic Visage power had a 6.50% chance to hit, but rolled a 19.63.
Harlequin Juggler MISSES! Psychic Visage power had a 6.50% chance to hit, but rolled a 15.75.
Attendant MISSES! Psychic Visage power had a 6.50% chance to hit, but rolled a 48.92.
Harlequin Juggler MISSES! Psychic Visage power had a 7.80% chance to hit, but rolled a 80.09.
Steel Strongman MISSES! Psychic Visage power had a 8.97% chance to hit, but rolled a 19.49.
Harlequin Fencer MISSES! Psychic Visage power had a 7.80% chance to hit, but rolled a 93.03.
Harlequin Juggler MISSES! Psychic Visage power had a 7.80% chance to hit, but rolled a 97.38.
Master Illusionist HITS you! Psychic Visage power had a 8.97% chance to hit and rolled a 0.85.
Master Illusionist hits you with their Psychic Visage draining 18.29 points of your endurance.

 

Edited September 16, 2020 by ninja surprise