How could we get you to try

[The_Warpact]

1 minute ago, Neiska said:

Whew.. thank goodness for that. I know its not going on now, and I don't know if that even was a thing before, but gotta say, that is a doozy. 100% not my thing. No hard feelings against those that did want that, but I would have been very put out if it was 100% applied to everyones base. So horray for "Opt In's"?

Just like any pvp in CoX you have to choose to join, whether it be arena, base raid, and if you go into a pvp zone. 

[Troo]

On 9/11/2020 at 5:12 PM, RageusQuitus2 said:

Considering the stigma pvp has, how could we get some of the anti crowd to try it? 

 

My preference is zone play.  I know the arena crowd has tried super hard to get more involvement.

 

Just curious what might make someone try it.

In order to help PVP gain traction those who are active would need to be able to accurately identify the things people don't like.

 

Lower level PVP has a lower barrier to entry and could therefore be more accommodating of casual or new PVP folks.

 

Expecting folks to participate at levels that require expensive highly specialized builds and be practiced in exploits in order to be successful is a fools errand.

[RageusQuitus2]

1 minute ago, Troo said:

In order to help PVP gain traction those who are active would need to be able to accurately identify the things people don't like.

 

Lower level PVP has a lower barrier to entry and could therefore be more accommodating of casual or new PVP folks.

 

This was kind of why I posted the thread.  I thought I new the answers (and was right about some) but am happy to see the variety of comments and participation in general.  Thanks again all!

 

I wonder if PvP in say bloody bay might resolve some of this?  Or sirens?  I mean youd still have some specialized builds but the cost of IOs for a bloody bay build would be smaller wouldnt it?  Also might mix up the ATs and combos that are viable?

 

I also remember some low level arena matches as well.  But its been ages.

[M3z]

uh oh... a pvp thread...

But seriously though @Croax or anyone who has any questions(for instance Croax you said you didn't know what was going on with that psy build) about pvp can message me here or on discord M3z#1843, I can help explain mechanics, why builds are made a certain way etc etc zone build/arena/small teams advice anything but fightclub really (I don't know much about FC but there are others in the community who do)

 

I'm sad I never got to make the rest of the videos I had planned that were going to explain pvp mechanics(DR curves, animation based damage etc), build orientation and meta ATs.

Edited September 15, 2020 by M3z

[ShardWarrior]

On 9/14/2020 at 3:30 PM, America's Angel said:

Ahem. >.>

 

 

^ This is a great way to get people interested.

[macskull]

10 hours ago, Troo said:

In order to help PVP gain traction those who are active would need to be able to accurately identify the things people don't like.

 

Lower level PVP has a lower barrier to entry and could therefore be more accommodating of casual or new PVP folks.

 

Expecting folks to participate at levels that require expensive highly specialized builds and be practiced in exploits in order to be successful is a fools errand.

"Lowbie" PvP events happen sometimes but they get boring pretty quickly. I think most of the PvP sort of condensed around level 50 because of how easy it is to level/IO/accolade a character on Homecoming compared to back on live. That and the "exemplared level +5 powers" change seriously changed the balance of power in the lower-level PvP zones. Not sure what you mean about being "practiced in exploits in order to be successful" though.

[M3z]

Just to clarify, there are no meaningful "exploits" that are going to do much for anyone, unless you mean base tp'ing in zones or something (zones are just not that fun in general IMO). And if you're talking about animation cancelling you don't NEED to know animation cancelling. I win matches all the time without using a single animation cancel.

 

PvP is mostly about having a viable build depending for the format you're trying playing in. There's a lot of skill, knowledge and coordination that goes into pvp but if you're just starting out having a good build and showing up to Smol KBs is a great place to start, you can develop the other skills later.

 

If someone wants builds or has questions Homecoming PvP discord is friendly and answers everyone's question. The Homecoming arena pvp scene is a continuation of the live test pvp scene which has been doing competitive SG vs SG matches since PvP started(for those of you who aren't aware how long competitive pvp scene has been around!).

 

If you are new and want a casual pvp environment SMOL KB was made to get new people/PVErs into 8v8 arena pvp

Discord link here: https://discord.gg/PMdDUyN

 

If that doesn't interest you and you know what you're doing or just want min/max build advice or want serious 8v8s check out Homecoming PvP

Discord link here: https://discord.gg/ACfXPxK

Edited September 16, 2020 by M3z

[CaptainLupis]

For me it would probably have to require a level playing field. That ship has sailed, so it's unlikely I will ever go back to it.

 

The most fun I ever had with PvP was way back when RV was being beta tested. You could level up anything straight away to level 40 and kit it out with SOs, so everyone was on the same baseline. You got to try out loads of builds and it was an absolute hoot. 

 

I'm not sure if something similiar is possible on beta nowadays, or even if making the beta server the PvP server would work as the current population probably couldn't sustain that.

[The_Warpact]

On 9/11/2020 at 8:12 PM, RageusQuitus2 said:

Considering the stigma pvp has, how could we get some of the anti crowd to try it? 

 

My preference is zone play.  I know the arena crowd has tried super hard to get more involvement.

 

Just curious what might make someone try it.

You should have clarified "as it is now" and "within reason". Just by some of the responses.

 

Regardless, if it takes a certain build style, training, game mechanics, tactics, etc.

Its going to fall to people, one, you get excuses of every sort, and two, people are scared/take it personal/whatever other emotional response that prevents them to trying.

 

Perhaps they got jumped in zone while badging, now they take it personal and all pvpers are griefers, I've seen equal builds go toe to toe and there is a winner because, one person is better than the other. Besides, you cannot have equal when AT's and people are different. See the excuses can go on and on.

 

There is a multitude of responses, and obviously the forums is a microcosm of the actual game. So don't lose faith, will it ever be a huge success compared to pve, of course not. But, with new people coming into the game there lies your salvation, new gamers are used to pvp, not people who are set in there ways that have been here for a long time.

 

I salute you for your attempt obviously you are passionate about this and would like some success. But, remember you cannot lead a horse to water no matter how much you try to help.

 

 

 

[Heraclea]

20 hours ago, Myrmidon said:

We never did get to refine the base raiding system because they dropped the idea. You can bet that a great deal of your concerns would have been addressed throughout the life of the game if it actually worked.

If you had built a base in the old game, many of the restrictions on item placement and various line of sight rules were all related to the possibility of base raiding.  You had to obey the PvP rules in building even if you never used the base for PvP.  IIRC only certain rooms could house power, control, and teleport objects as well.  Each standard teleporter could serve only two zones.   You had to unlock the teleport beacons by visiting each target zone exploration badge location while in SG costume mode.  Base raiding also worked off the prestige system, where every base item cost prestige, supergroups had to pay a prestige rent, and prestige invested in items destroyed by PvP was lost. 

 

The way bases work on HC, with room clipping permitted, many bases being built above or below the walls, and prestige not in use, the return of base PvP is basically not possible here for better or worse. 

[Andreah]

I doubt there are many fence-sitters who might be persuaded to try pvp in this game. I know I never will. I am continually surprised there are any people in this game who really care about pvp. And especially since there's a group trying to stir up interest in a tournament on my server right now. I think they'd have better luck on the pvp server. In fact, my preference would be to totally disable it --  in my experience it brings out the worst in people.

[macskull]

2 hours ago, Andreah said:

In fact, my preference would be to totally disable it

Let's disable roleplaying since there are some really sleazy people that get involved in that too. Seems a little idiotic, no? That's basically what you're saying.

 

Also... coming into a thread asking "what can be done to get you interested in PvP" and replying with "totally disable it?" And people say PvPers are toxic...

Edited September 16, 2020 by macskull

[HoundsTooth]

I want to try PvP, especially 1v1 or small teams in the arena, but barriers to entry are too high. It seems like you need a really optimized build. I’m a casual player and I have a hard enough time affording purple/PvP/winter IO’s. I don’t want to invest the time into farming or playing the market to afford a good build when I might not even like PvP. If there was an active PvP community on the test server,

I would join.

[UltraAlt]

23 hours ago, Neiska said:

I didnt even know that base raiding used to be a thing. If someone came into my base, and completely thrashed what might have spent weeks if not months making, for what, and hour of pvp content? I would probially immediately quit. And I am pretty sure I am not the only one who would feel that way. Basebuilding more or less feels like a home, or a private space. Having a bunch of randoms storm in and wreck the place would feel like a violation not just of my time and effort, but also of my personal area. That very much should be an "opt into" system, not an "all bases are fair game". Becuase yes, it might be exciting for the pvpers at first, but after the first time it happened, I wouldn't build anything ever again. Not if someone else can just come along and wreck it. And yes, the higher skilled/bigger pvp people would quickly over run the smaller groups or non pvp groups. And I don't see many people being gluttons for punishment, not if their base is getting wrecked once a week or so.

......

I guess what I am trying to say is, is that if a Pvper goes around griefing and ganking people who don't want to be involved whilest doing the "mocking jig", I suspect he would quickly run out of people willing to be victims. A few might try to get some payback certainly...

.....

Base raiding should not be a compulsary thing. I have no qualms against other groups of people staging them, but there should be a safety switch for people who dont want their stuff messed with.

Yeah, not only is it destroying your stuff in the base, but you had to pay for the base items with prestige that was earned by players in supergroup mode. If I recall correctly and I'm kind of half guessing even - I think it cut your influence gain in half when you were in supergroup mode earning prestige.

 

Oh, there were definately people sending tells in PVP about what a loser you were if you lost a fight. Some of them would mock you until you put them on ignore. At least that was my experience.

That didn't drive me form PVP so much as make it less likely that I would want to participate in it.

 

You never HAD to get involved with base raids. There were these things called Items of Power. You would put them in your base they gave every supergroup member in supergroup mode a boost (https://archive.paragonwiki.com/wiki/Items_of_Power). As long as you didn't have one of these in your base, you couldn't be raided.

 

But to your point, the number of players that want to participate in PVP in THE CITY is small compared to the population. The ones that want to base raid are a fraction of that.

They are working to try to get others to try PVP so that they can put pressure on the DEVs to work on PVP.

 

To make it clear. If you enjoy PVP, then I'm glad that you enjoy PVP.

The variation in gameplay in THE CITY is huge. Explore it and make it the game that you enjoy coming back to for whatever reason.

 

I already brought up in the past what drove me away from re-subscribing to THE CITY before the last year before the Sunset. It was no PVP that drove me away.

PVP has always been optional in THE CITY. There is no requirement to PVP at any point in the game.

 

Honestly, I even think most badge hunters avoid PVP even though it has a ton of badges.

 

[UltraAlt]

2 hours ago, Andreah said:

I doubt there are many fence-sitters who might be persuaded to try pvp in this game. I know I never will. I am continually surprised there are any people in this game who really care about pvp. And especially since there's a group trying to stir up interest in a tournament on my server right now. I think they'd have better luck on the pvp server. In fact, my preference would be to totally disable it --  in my experience it brings out the worst in people.

They can move their characters from server to server for free.

They could move over to the PVP server for a tournament and then move the characters back to their home server.

[The_Warpact]

2 hours ago, Andreah said:

 in my experience it brings out the worst in people.

That's calling the kettle black. Guess the road goes both ways.

Edited September 16, 2020 by The_Warpact

[Twisted Toon]

1 hour ago, The_Warpact said:

That's calling the kettle black. Guess the road goes both ways.

They didn't say that participating in PvP brought out the worst in people, just that PvP existing did.

they were also showing an example of that at the same time.

[America's Angel]

3 hours ago, Andreah said:

 And especially since there's a group trying to stir up interest in a tournament on my server right now. I think they'd have better luck on the pvp server.

We're not trying to stir up interest.

 

We are stirring up interest.

 

Loads of people have said they're interested. From hardcore PVPers, to casuals, to people who didn't even know this game has PVP. (We've got people from all servers looking at jumping over to join in the fun!)

 

Feel free to come along and see for yourself. 

Edited September 16, 2020 by America's Angel

[Coyotedancer]

To each their own and all that...  and you may have some amount of luck... but I honestly doubt that you're ever going to make PvP the "*IT* Thing" in City of Heroes.

It's just not that kind of game and it doesn't have that kind of player culture. 

[Neiska]

6 hours ago, The_Warpact said:

Its going to fall to people, one, you get excuses of every sort, and two, people are scared/take it personal/whatever other emotional response that prevents them to trying.

 

Perhaps they got jumped in zone while badging, now they take it personal and all pvpers are griefers,

 

1 hour ago, The_Warpact said:

That's calling the kettle black. Guess the road goes both ways.

 

 

With respect Warpact, those are pretty big words considering your previous statement. While you are right, it can "go both ways" as far as toxicity goes, but I do think that is the minority on both sides. Also I do like to think that in my post, as well as my brief interactions with you I was respectful. More or less I just said "Its not my thing. But I don't mind people who do enjoy it." I even offered a detailed suggestion to the OP about how they might go about getting attention and new people by making a pvp focused supergroup that doesn't just gank or duel, but also teaches.

 

But my main point I wanted to say, is that if you want to be seen differently, you also have to act differently. If I wanted to be in an environment where I could be ganked while questing or while doing my own thing, I would likely be playing a different game with more tools for that gameplay.

 

On a personal note, I don't appreciate the insinuation that people who dont enjoy PVP are scared/emotional/or take things personal. I could make the claim that Pvpers just want more victims/easy targets to harass and to troll. Both statements are petty and beneath everyone involved. And your statements, as well as those like it, probably don't come off as particularly welcoming to fellow players who might be interested in the gameplay you and others are so passionate about.

 

Food for thought.

[The_Warpact]

4 minutes ago, Neiska said:

With respect Warpact, those are pretty big words considering your previous statement. While you are right, it can "go both ways" as far as toxicity goes, but I do think that is the minority on both sides. Also I do like to think that in my post, as well as my brief interactions with you I was respectful. More or less I just said "Its not my thing. But I don't mind people who do enjoy it." I even offered a detailed suggestion to the OP about how they might go about getting attention and new people by making a pvp focused supergroup that doesn't just gank or duel, but also teaches.

 

But my main point I wanted to say, is that if you want to be seen differently, you also have to act differently. If I wanted to be in an environment where I could be ganked while questing or while doing my own thing, I would likely be playing a different game with more tools for that gameplay.

 

On a personal note, I don't appreciate the insinuation that people who dont enjoy PVP are scared/emotional/or take things personal. I could make the claim that Pvpers just want more victims/easy targets to harass and to troll. Both statements are petty and beneath everyone involved. And your statements, as well as those like it, probably don't come off as particularly welcoming to fellow players who might be interested in the gameplay you and others are so passionate about.

 

Food for thought.

I dont see where you think i was referencing you in any way, I did however reference another poster as being negative.

 

I however when I say anything or better yet share anything is based on actual events and/or people in situations that have occurred.

 

While, it is nothing specific in this thread there is an underlying tone in some people posts that hint at it but, thats just conjecture.

I have seen people melt down in zones, forums, broadcast, etc and oft times then not it is they take it wwwaaayyyy to personally and that is an emotional response.

I have also seen people who don't like to be competitive, fear of failure, are introverts, etc, etc.

To each their own, my post was just an observation to the OP on things he possibly might not have thought of on some of the reactions that he has been receiving. 

For the most part everyone has been fantastic and offered some form of thought on the subject but, like you said there is a "minority" that just are negative for a whole host of reasons and once again it would be conjecture on my part on the "why".

 

I don't pvp, I haven't since I13, but. the OP struck a cord in me and thats why I have retained some longevity in the thread. I would like for him to succeed enough to make him happy even though I don't know him.

 

In closing we had good interaction prior to this and lets keep it at that, there are bad seeds in everything and on both sides of this. We fortunately are not them.

[Lines]

I'm really happy to hear that the PvP community is getting traction. And it's really nice to hear people's good experiences.

[Neiska]

@The_Warpact - Agreed, but I would like to perhaps give you another angle that you may not have considered. 

 

Some people, have quite stressful lives and play games to unwind or relax, and don't do it for more excitement. In my own real life work, its competitive. That's why I quit high end raiding in other games. Some people just want to kick back after a long day at work with an adult beverage, and just enjoy their own personal preferred kind of gameplay. As far as being emotional goes, well, I would certainly classify "smack talking" as an emotionally driven response as well, which certainly is a thing in PVP. 

 

And for the record, I do hope the OP succeeds too. More friends for everyone is a good thing in my book. And while you didn't cite me personally, you did insinuate that people who don't enjoy PVP can be that, which does include myself. So even while its not a game activity I enjoy myself, I can still support those that do. But a part of that is proving peoples assumptions wrong too. I've seen many duelers/pvpers who still acted with a sense of respect and decorum. So no, they aren't all bad. But suggesting that all Non-pvpers are those things, are just as bad as calling Pvpers griefers/trolls/toxic and so on.

 

So lets have both sides do each other the favor and not label one another? So lets not suggest "All PVPers are X" or "All Non-pvpers are Y" and so on, yes? Because that sort of thought is limiting, restrictive, and insulting in some cases, and is hardly productive.

 

So live and let live, yes?

[Troo]

Ahhh, classic pvp

 

"Let's get people involved!" a little bit later "Oh, ignore the a-holes. we're not all like that.." a little bit later "Hey, where did everyone go?"

[siolfir]

10 minutes ago, Neiska said:

Some people just want to kick back after a long day at work with an adult beverage, and just enjoy their own personal preferred kind of gameplay. As far as being emotional goes, well, I would certainly classify "smack talking" as an emotionally driven response as well, which certainly is a thing in PVP. 

I think there's only been one post in this thread that was seeking to remove someone's preferred kind of gameplay (which was the post quoted in the pot meet kettle response you found umbrage with); instead the premise of the thread is to ask what is causing a barrier to entry for people from trying a different kind that they may or may not enjoy, but usually don't know because they haven't tried.

 

As for smack talking being an emotionally driven response - yes, it can be. It can also be an attempt to create one (ie, to "tilt" your opponent). I personally find it either petty or stupid, and occasionally actually humorous based on the creativity and/or wit, similarly to how I see insult comedy: most of the time tedious, but so great when done well. Others' reactions may vary, and the tedium of "learn to play" talk isn't strictly a PvP thing, either (hooray for team drama on a game that's typically pretty easy when for once the team doesn't curb stomp everything in the way). There are a-holes in all parts of the community (just look at the pro-/anti-knockback threads) and from my experience (most of which was arena with some zone) the PvP community here overall is full of helpful people who are looking for more players, not more victims.

 

As for the OP, my barrier to entry is simply laziness. I have at best a mild interest anymore, and I've been in RV a few times but have all of 0 "PvP builds" across any of my characters. Prior experience with arena here would have me trend towards arena-friendly builds if I were going to invest the time to make a PvP build, but as I said - I'm just too lazy to bother because I have other things going on instead.