Game Balance & The Endgame

[Haijinx]

Just now, Lockpick said:

 

Thank you for supporting my points from earlier in the thread.  I agree that Tankers are now OP.  This is what happens when you have wholesale balance changes.  Now we have to have more balance changes so other ATs can get to the level of Tankers.  Then we need more balance changes so the new Flavor of the Month under performing set now meets the new performance metrics.  It never ends, which leads to my point that we should leave well enough alone and only target clearly under performing or over performing sets.

 

The development time would be much better spent providing value in new sets, new power pools, and solving the player created end game content challenges.

 

Scrapper did it too ..

[Bill Z Bubba]

1 minute ago, Haijinx said:

Scrapper did it too ..

Exactly. And an empathy freaking defender.

🙂

[Lockpick]

3 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

Im on my phone atm so sorry for quoting all of this.  

 

You probably low on the 300 mil estimate.  Most of my level 50 retirees end up at that level, and they really aren't in the solo 54x8 class without at least some help.  

 

At a billion inf though, its a snap.  

 

There is no IO decay, there are no maintenance costs, etc.

 

The only check on people reaching that level is boredom altitis or a lack of focus.  

 

A billion isn't even that much.  If you solo through arcs to 50 you'll be halfway there.  

I really respect your builds and performance discussions, but you are killing me...

 

You do realize a billion inf is not much for a power gamer, but will never be reached by the vast majority of players, right?

 

[oedipus_tex]

16 minutes ago, Lockpick said:

A few power gamers feel the game is this easy.  I doubt if the larger overall population believes this and even if some do believe it is easy I don't believe they would advocate for wholesale changes to make the game harder.  They probably like it as it is.

 

I mean this with all due respect, but I feel like any player immersed in the game enough to have an opinion on +4/x8 content and how easy it should be is by definition "a power gamer."  

Edited October 12, 2020 by oedipus_tex

[Haijinx]

1 minute ago, Lockpick said:

I really respect your builds and performance discussions, but you are killing me...

 

You do realize a billion inf is not much for a power gamer, but will never be reached by the vast majority of players, right?

 

I'm totally casual.  I probably play less hours these days than most people on this thread.

 

I stick to one character at a time though.  That makes a huge difference. 

 

And no a billion really isn't that much.  Even a haphazard unfocused incarnate can make 50 million in a few hours. 

 

 

 

[Bill Z Bubba]

7 minutes ago, Lockpick said:

I really respect your builds and performance discussions, but you are killing me...

 

You do realize a billion inf is not much for a power gamer, but will never be reached by the vast majority of players, right?

I still remember being told how much I sucked at this game back in Issue 1. I had never played an MMO before, had zero clue about the tank/healer/damage trinity, nor how to play within it with this non-tank/healer/blaster claws/sr scrapper I had built. I remember it taking me months to hit 50 the 1st time. Now it takes hours.

Skill and knowledge levels change for EVERYONE the longer they play.

Edited October 12, 2020 by Bill Z Bubba

[Mezmera]

7 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

Wrong. This is what happens when balance changes are incorrectly applied.

Change is not the problem.

A lot of people that to you seem resistant to change in this thread are not.  They are mostly looking at the nerf to TW and PPM and asking why not then Fire Blast by their justification.  Sure if they'd like to tinker and spend all their energy constantly nerfing and buffing have at it.  

 

But as the example for Tanks goes.  They were already easy mode characters with that bag of hp and plug and play defenses/resists.  Giving them moar damage seemed to be counter intuitive to how they were typically designed to be the lead for the team and with more damage they've just become Brutes.  Tanks were more looking at Brutes jealously it seems.  So another avenue for "change" could have been looking at Brutes being almost the same defensively to Tanks.  

 

I don't know for how many I speak for but I don't think people are opposed to change, for me it's more about a varied approach.  

 

Honestly I'd just like the endgame content that was promised when I supported Going Rogue.  

[Lockpick]

2 minutes ago, oedipus_tex said:

 

I mean this with all due respect, but I feel like any player immersed in the game enough to have an opinion on +4/x8 content and how easy it should be is by definition "a power gamer."  

 

I'm not sure I get your point.  If you are indicating I am a power gamer, I agree.  I indicated earlier that I am a power gamer, but even if I am a power gamer there are others that might be considered super power gamers like @Werner, @nihilii; @Bill Z Bubba that can take that next level step to do insane challenges.

 

From my perspective, if the game was made harder I would adapt because I play a lot, I make builds, I read the forums, etc.  My concern is more for what I would consider the average gamer that really like the non-trinity casual nature of this game.  I don't know that percentage of players, but I expect it is much larger than the power gamer percentage.

 

A power gamer in my mind (just so we have a starting point):

• Plays a lot (this is different for everyone; I play a lot, much more than I should)
• Has multiple 50s
• Min/max builds
• Plays multiple aspects of the game to earn inf
• IO sets
• Incarnates
• Forum regular
• Veteran player who understands the ins and outs of the game well enough to have a reasonable developed opinion on the topic at hand

 

 

[Bill Z Bubba]

Just now, Mezmera said:

They are mostly looking at the nerf to TW and PPM and asking why not then Fire Blast by their justification.

TW has a ton more secondary effects than more damage.

Fiery melee should be the #1 damage melee set but it's not. That's broken and should be corrected.

[aethereal]

I don't want to tune the game back down to the point where most people need to solo at +0/x1, no bosses.  That's a just fundamentally less interesting solo experience than we have today.  And reasonably powerful superheroes should absolutely be able to jump into a crowd of bad guys and finish them off.

 

But I wouldn't mind if the a typical forum-build could manage +1/x4 or +1/x5, with the very toughest soloers were struggling to do +2/x6 or so, with +4/x8 laughably out of reach for any single player.

Edited October 12, 2020 by aethereal

[Haijinx]

4 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

TW has a ton more secondary effects than more damage.

Fiery melee should be the #1 damage melee set but it's not. That's broken and should be corrected.

Its not even in the top 5

[Brutal Justice]

10 minutes ago, Bionic_Flea said:

I still think that we don't need any major changes to the way player or critter powers work, or a major nerfing of IOs, or any other game-changing depowering of players.  All we need is to add the Ouro and TF difficulty settings to regular content with some token  reward for the extra difficulty.

If there was increased rewards for running with those settings more people  would do it.   Buffed enemies and debuffed players would wreck many players, and bring back the old feeling of the game.  

 

A tank may be able to charge into that room solo, maybe survive, and possibly be able to clear it, but it’s going to take him so long that having a team outweighs any reason for him to do it other than for bragging rights.  

 

You also wouldnt be seeing fire blasters blitzing everything.  Maybe they could pull and whittle things down eventually but, again, the time involved would make it purely for bragging rights.  

 

If there was a reason to run those difficulty options people would do it.  It would restore team play, provide harder content, and still provide achievable challenges for those interested.  

 

The tools already exist.  There is just no other reason than bragging rights to use it.  Create sufficient rewards and people will chase them.

[Gobbledigook]

6 minutes ago, Lockpick said:

 

I'm not sure I get your point.  If you are indicating I am a power gamer, I agree.  I indicated earlier that I am a power gamer, but even if I am a power gamer there are others that might be considered super power gamers like @Werner, @nihilii; @Bill Z Bubba that can take that next level step to do insane challenges.

 

From my perspective, if the game was made harder I would adapt because I play a lot, I make builds, I read the forums, etc.  My concern is more for what I would consider the average gamer that really like the non-trinity casual nature of this game.  I don't know that percentage of players, but I expect it is much larger than the power gamer percentage.

 

A power gamer in my mind (just so we have a starting point):

• Plays a lot (this is different for everyone; I play a lot, much more than I should)
• Has multiple 50s
• Min/max builds
• Plays multiple aspects of the game to earn inf
• IO sets
• Incarnates
• Forum regular
• Veteran player who understands the ins and outs of the game well enough to have a reasonable developed opinion on the topic at hand

 

 

I would just call that an experienced player that likes the game...a lot. You get to 50 and you can't help making INF. I have the above and i am certainly not a power gamer.

 

[oedipus_tex]

1 minute ago, Lockpick said:

 

I'm not sure I get your point.  If you are indicating I am a power gamer, I agree.  I indicated earlier that I am a power gamer, but even if I am a power gamer there are others that might be considered super power gamers like @Werner, @nihilii; @Bill Z Bubba that can take that next level step to do insane challenges.

 

From my perspective, if the game was made harder I would adapt because I play a lot, I make builds, I read the forums, etc.  My concern is more for what I would consider the average gamer that really like the non-trinity casual nature of this game.  I don't know that percentage of players, but I expect it is much larger than the power gamer percentage.

 

A power gamer in my mind (just so we have a starting point):

• Plays a lot (this is different for everyone; I play a lot, much more than I should)
• Has multiple 50s
• Min/max builds
• Plays multiple aspects of the game to earn inf
• IO sets
• Incarnates
• Forum regular
• Veteran player who understands the ins and outs of the game well enough to have a reasonable developed opinion on the topic at hand

 

 

Thanks for your well thought out reply. Things can get pretty heated on the forums because there's a lot of passion so I appreciate you taking the time to be respectful and thorough.

 

That there is so much energy about this topic I think it speaks to how great this game is and the amazing job the latest dev team has done reviving it. I understand the perspective you're coming from. 

 

For me personally, I'm much less concerned about top level builds than I am about making the Support and Control classes have a purpose. They did, for a long time in the game's history. Things were never perfect and damage was always king, but there was at least somewhat more of an attempt to make them relevant.

 

The thing about "casuals" is they existed before the incarnate system existed, and everything more or less worked okay. The game was never extremely difficult. But I think sometimes we slide into an attitude that "Since things are basically easy, numbers no longer matter." Destiny, Level Shifts--they stand out for their negative impact to people like Bubba and I along with some other observers. 

 

If these sharp edges are sanded off, casuals would go back to playing the game the way they did on Live. The incarnate system only existed for 1 Issue before it moved behind a paywall and 2 issues before the game shutdown. The game we're playing right now doesn't represent how it worked at any point during its live run, and casuals were fine with that. 

[Lockpick]

24 minutes ago, Gobbledegook said:

I would just call that an experienced player that likes the game...a lot. You get to 50 and you can't help making INF. I have the above and i am certainly not a power gamer.

 

Okay, what is your definition of a power gamer?  And how would you classify yourself?  I generally see gamers labeled as casuals or power gamers.  If you are meeting the definition I provided I don't think you qualify as a casual.  Not sure if there other classifications I am not thinking about.

 

Here is a definition from Wikipedia:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Powergaming

[oedipus_tex]

4 minutes ago, Lockpick said:

Okay, what is your definition of a power gamer?  And how would you classify yourself?  I generally see gamers labeled as casuals or power gamers.  If you are meeting the definition I provided I don't think you qualify as a casual.  Not sure if there other classifications I am not thinking about.

 

Here is a definition from Wikipedia:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Powergaming

 

I can take a stab at this.

 

I am a power gamer in the sense that I want a character that adds value. There are certain sets that in my eyes aren't effective enough in the game's meta to consider. In my case it has less to do with wanting to dominate content than it does with a belief that each role should have merit. 

 

For me, I liked the balance we had just prior to the incarnate system better than after. I'm not a "burn it all down" player who wants to get rid of IOs and so on, but I definitely had more fun before, when I felt like rolling a Support or Control character had more purpose. 

[Puma]

2 hours ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

Oh horseshit. It's not a case of X being able to solo Y. It's a case of X being able to solo Y at the max diff, with no inspirations, with enemies buffed with +50% acc and damage and ZERO deaths.
It's a prime example of the ridiculous power creep that this game suffered from for years BEFORE the shutdown.

I mean, you still haven't convinced me why that's a problem.  

 

You just don't like it, and keep saying "balance"...but what the hell does that mean? 

 

I could argue It's "balanced" because it allows me to run more content without having to waste half of my play time finding the right mix of a team to complete it. It balances "doable" with "fun".  

 

Or I could argue it's balanced because it required me to get a toon to the highest level I could, plan out a build, invest in the slots, and the pay off is that now my character can play the hardest difficulty without dying. 

 

If I have to do all of that and still can't play much better than me being on SOs, then how is that balanced. 

  
Lets face it...when stuff is new it's hard, even with our power creep.  Look at the new Hami, or Reichsman, or iTrials like Magi and Mother Mayhem.   But as we figure out the mechanics it gets easier.  That isn't because of "power creep", it's because we figure out the tricks.  We know what works.  The power is the reward as much as it is the tool.  Hami's reward is a powerful enhancement.   iTrials reward you with more power to make them easier. That's the nature of the game. 

  

The main problem right now is we're stuck with less new challenges coming out, so the whole game is easier.  But honestly, it's easier on an Emp Trick Arrow without Destiny, too, because I know how to do the missions faster, smarter, and better. 

 

[Coyotedancer]

2 hours ago, Haijinx said:

As time goes on the typical player build will become more and more powerful.

 

Anecdotally its already happening, sampling the set bonus spam of other characters get longer and longer.  

 

I haven't seen a huge increase in the number of characters with massive set-bonus lists out in the game over the course of the last year-and-change, Haijinx... and as I've said before, I habitually look at the info panes of the people I'm teamed with. This power inflation thing just isn't happening to any huge extent.

 

The majority of the characters I see on Everlasting and Excelsior may have a few procs and specials, and maybe a handful of set bonuses listed. They're just not the softcapped-to-everything/IO-ed out unstoppable powerhouses that most of us forum-dwellers know how to build.  

[Bionic_Flea]

2 minutes ago, Coyotedancer said:

The majority of the characters I see on Everlasting and Excelsior may have a few procs and specials, and maybe a handful of set bonuses listed. They're just not the softcapped-to-everything/IO-ed out unstoppable powerhouses that most of us forum-dwellers know how to build.  

I think it depends on the level and the content.  If you are running Positron or other low level TF you are much less likely to see a long list of set bonuses than if you are running I-trials, Hamidon, or other end game stuff . . . and rightly so!

[Naraka]

3 hours ago, oedipus_tex said:

In fairness to the folks who are fine with where the currently difficulty level lies, running at +4/x8 produces superior rewards to running at lower difficulties. They may feel that the rate of XP and influence generated at +4/x8 is the reasonable rate toons should get in normal play. So, I can understand some anxiety when the discussion turns to making things harder.

 

I know someone had mentioned the proposition before in this thread but I don't remember if anyone ever answered:

 

What if all the rewards were just maximized? Basically, and green to barely grey mob in the game has the same exp/drops as +4 boss mobs? 

 

Is basically the other extreme of the mentality of wanting to push for a more difficult game by de-emphasizes difficulty itself. If you think about it, it'd mean that the current standard difficulty for maxed out characters would be another form of nerfing yourself, so to speak. 

[Coyotedancer]

14 minutes ago, Bionic_Flea said:

I think it depends on the level and the content.  If you are running Positron or other low level TF you are much less likely to see a long list of set bonuses than if you are running I-trials, Hamidon, or other end game stuff . . . and rightly so!

I do run with some end-game teams (Both ridiculous wrecking balls and... Well, let's say "otherwise", to be polite. Like that ITF I tossed one of my Dark Defenders into Saturday afternoon. Yiiikes. o_0) along with the mid-level groups I prefer for my support types. The lower level people rarely seem to have much in the way of procs or set bonuses at all, honestly. I mean easily more than half have exactly bupkis. 

 

That's why I feel like I have to keep reminding people in these threads just how NOT typical our IO-ed to the gills monster builds are. It's way too easy to fall into the idea that those are what everyone and their sister is running out there in-game, even though that's not necessarily the case.

 

 

Edited October 12, 2020 by Coyotedancer

[Lockpick]

24 minutes ago, Coyotedancer said:

 

I haven't seen a huge increase in the number of characters with massive set-bonus lists out in the game over the course of the last year-and-change, Haijinx... and as I've said before, I habitually look at the info panes of the people I'm teamed with. This power inflation thing just isn't happening to any huge extent.

 

The majority of the characters I see on Everlasting and Excelsior may have a few procs and specials, and maybe a handful of set bonuses listed. They're just not the softcapped-to-everything/IO-ed out unstoppable powerhouses that most of us forum-dwellers know how to build.  

 

I do this as well.  If I look at Info at a Hami raid or iTrial I will see players with a lot of IO set info (and a ton of vet levels), but if I am leveling up (which is the majority of the game) I see few characters with IOs.  I start slotting my IO sets as soon as I can, but I think I am rare compared to most of the community.  We on the forums probably do it, but we are the power gamers.

 

 

Edited October 12, 2020 by Lockpick

[Coyotedancer]

5 minutes ago, Lockpick said:

 

I do this as well.  If I look at Info at a Hami raid or iTrial I will see players with a lot of IO set info (and a ton of vet levels), but if I am leveling up (which is the majority of the game) I see few characters with IOs.  I start slotting my IO sets as soon as I can, but I think I am rare compared to most of the community.  We one the forums probably do it, but we are the power gamers.

 

 

Yeah... Hami raids do seem to be one of those places where the "build invested" gather. Ship raids are really variable, but the "usual suspect" core characters you see showing up at almost every one also tend to be among the better-geared-than-average. 

 

I don't spend a huge amount of time in iTrials, so I have less of a feel for the crowd there, but just given the investment of time Incarnation represents, I suspect those characters would also be on the more-tuned side. That's content that at least marginally more serious players seem to be drawn to over the real casual types. 

 

 

Edited October 12, 2020 by Coyotedancer

[skoryy]

3 hours ago, Wavicle said:

The fact that tanks with maxed out level 50 builds can solo a TF designed for players level 35-50 is not shocking or even a problem. The problem is that a lvl 35-50 TF is still considered max level content when it shouldn't be.

The problem is considering a lvl 35-50 TF as max level content to begin with.  If your mobs base difficulty is level 35, incarnated 50s are going to blow through them even if level shifted.  They're not exactly endgame Arachnos or Malta.

 

Also, I'll add that 'tanks wading through everything' is a function of basic game design where most of the load bearing is done by defense caps and easily attainable layered defenses.  Yet in all the talk about game difficulty, I don't recall anyone ever mentioning lowering defense and resist caps.  🤔

[summers]

6 minutes ago, skoryy said:

The problem is considering a lvl 35-50 TF as max level content to begin with.  If your mobs base difficulty is level 35, incarnated 50s are going to blow through them even if level shifted.  They're not exactly endgame Arachnos or Malta.

 

Also, I'll add that 'tanks wading through everything' is a function of basic game design where most of the load bearing is done by defense caps and easily attainable layered defenses.  Yet in all the talk about game difficulty, I don't recall anyone ever mentioning lowering defense and resist caps.  🤔

I'd like to also add that it's not just incarnates that trivialise content though they certainly contribute to it. Attuned IOs give a lot of non-tank classes soft capped defences well before 50, and the fast recharing nuke cycle is pretty consistent by about 35-40.