Regen: Let's Improve It!

[GenesisMan]

Hello all! As many can attest, the Regen secondary for Scrappers (and by extension other ATs) is vastly under-performing. The numbers tweaks in the past definitely did the powerset harm, but the more recent sets like Bio Armor and even Willpower outperforming Regen at what it's supposed to be the best at is... a little sad. So I thought I'd start a thread on making suggestions/tweaks/improvements. I'm surprised I didn't see a thread already started for this, though I'm guessing I just missed it. Anyway, take a look and let me know what y'all think!

 

Disclaimer: I am not a numbers guy. The power of regen could be entirely made or broken by its numbers (which as far as I recall is exactly what happened to the powerset). If numbers tweaks are all that's needed, these ideas won't mean much. However, I am of the opinion that the powerset is too focused on only one defensive toolset, which is eclipsed by nearly every other survival powerset. With that in mind, here are my ideas:

---

Old Regen

Fast Healing

 

 Reconstruction

 

Quick Recovery

 

Dull Pain

 

Integration

 

Resilience

 

Instant Healing

 

Revive

 

Moment of Glory

---

New Regen

Fast Metabolism - Merge the Fast Healing and Quick Recovery passive powers into one. No number changes.

Reasoning: Three slots devoted to passive boosts is too much for this set. Merging the powers gives a little wiggle room for changing the powerset without making it worse. This basically becomes a suped-up Physical Perfection, which seems completely fine for a tier 1 power. Adds slight complications to slotting, but neither of the original powers were heavily-slotted anyway.

 

Reconstruction - Changes the power to a heal and absorb over time effect. Lower the activation time of the power so that it doesn't have to wait for the animation to finish.

Reasoning: Adding a HoT effect without dropping the overall heal amount just makes the power feel more in line with what the set is trying to do (always healing). Not a huge mechanical difference, but helps separate it from other sets' heals. Adding absorb here also helps deal with alpha spikes.

Edit: Credit to kelika2 for the HoT idea.

Credit to Sarrate for suggesting absorb be moved from Dull Pain to Reconstruction.

Credit to 0th Power for suggesting the animation/timing issue, a problem I wasn't aware of.

 

Resilience - Moved when power becomes available. Adds a resistance to slow and -regen effects. Increase resistance slightly.

Reasoning: The original passive doesn't do enough on its own, and comes far too late in the build. The added slow resist shores up what I see as one of the an unintended weaknesses of the set. If your recharge rate bottoms out, your heals can't recharge. Then you die. Not a fan.

Edit: Credit to kelika2 for the -regen resist idea.

 

Dull Pain - Lower the activation time of the power so that it doesn't have to wait for the animation to finish.

Reasoning: Sarrate makes a good point that absorb is better suited for Reconstruction, so I have moved that feature.

Credit to 0th Power for suggesting the animation/timing issue, a problem I wasn't aware of.

 

Integration - Add additional -regen resistance, no changes otherwise.

Reasoning: Some insurance that your main survival tool won't be completely gutted in some situations.

Edit: Credit to kelika2 for the -regen resist idea.

 

Reinvigorate - New click power. On activation, you gain a moderate +recharge boost and large -debuff resist (Disorient, Hold, Sleep, -To Hit, -Def, -Res, -End, -Regen, -Recovery) for the duration.

Reasoning: Take 2! I scrapped the Muster Resolve idea, mostly because the feedback on scalability not being needed was a very valid point. I also think a more readily-available absorb in Reconstruction is enough for the set. Instead, I looked towards something that would have synergy with all of the set's click powers, recharge! Basically this will be a Hasten-light, more analogous to the Electric Armor passive, Lightning Reflexes. I added the debuff resists at Leogunner's excellent suggestion. I'm not 100% certain that every debuff is covered, but hit the major ones that made sense. Any suggestions?

Edit: Credit to Leogunner for the -debuff resist idea.

 

Quote

Muster Resolve - New toggle power. Adds a layer of absorption and recovery per enemy in close range.

Reasoning: This powerset lacks scalability and at some point will teeter on the razors edge of just enough regen for enemy DPS... to dead. Adding scalable absorb (while in melee) helps with that tipping point while still being on-theme.

Note: Shelved idea for the new power in the set.

 

Instant Healing - *No current changes.

*Disclaimer: Okay, I'll be honest, I didn't realize this power was so hotly contested, nor was I aware the numbers were so wonky (the recharge vs duration times are nuts!). There are a lot of ideas on this power, and I can totally see making tweaks to this power, but that might require a poll or further consensus. For

Reasoning: The recharge time vs duration is such a vast gap, though I understand why they are set this way. The devs (imho) over-corrected when they changed this from an OP toggle. My hope is that Reinvigorate somewhat makes up for these issues, though the numbers may need tweaking anyway (again, not a numbers guy).

 

Inexorable - A modified (better numbers more in line with a non-pool power) port of the Presence power Unrelenting.

Reasoning: This is actually more of a personal preference, but I think the original Revive power is boring, and would only get used if the entire powerset gets overwhelmed. Making it a moderate to strong boost to stats while alive, while still keeping the resurrection aspect seems to be a better fit for the powerset. It should definitely keep debt and damage protection for a short duration once revived.

 

Moment of Glory - No current changes.

Reasoning: I don't see any particular issues with this tier-9, other than its necessity speaking to the overall weakness of the rest of the set.

 

That's all for now!

 

Edited September 23, 2020 by GenesisMan
Tweaking post based on feedback given.

[Super Atom]

I like your general changes, I feel like regen would need a little more but It's hard to really change it up without making it too much or too little.

 

I really like the self rez change and the new toggle.

 

Edit:  If you re-work IH so it works as a toggle, I think Regen could be pretty cool.

Edited September 21, 2020 by Super Atom

[GenesisMan]

11 minutes ago, Super Atom said:

I like your general changes, I feel like regen would need a little more but It's hard to really change it up without making it too much or too little.

 

I really like the self rez change and the new toggle.

Thanks! I agree, tweaking the set to improve it without making it OP (as it was in the early days of Live) is tricky. Some powers definitely have room for a few slight improvements, but again... tricky.

I think a scaling +rech rate on Reconstruction and maybe Dull Pain, where the scale is based on how low your HP is MIGHT work, but I hesitate on that.

 

Edit: Instant Healing as a toggle might be good, but the regen rate would have to be dropped enormously... unless it worked like the current phase shift, where you can only maintain it for so long... hmmm.....

Edited September 21, 2020 by GenesisMan

[macskull]

I think the best thing to do with IH is to reduce its recharge so it's up more often. You'd probably have to reduce its regen bonus as well but combined with the other proposed changes it seems solid. Maybe give Resilience a bit more resistance as well.

[Super Atom]

3 minutes ago, GenesisMan said:

Edit: Instant Healing as a toggle might be good, but the regen rate would have to be dropped enormously... unless it worked like the current phase shift, where you can only maintain it for so long... hmmm.....

Yeah, It'd need to be dialed back a bit but if you're going for the idea that Regen is suppose to be the out absorb/regen the damage to stay in the fight then i think working it around the idea that IH is directly working behind your absorption to keep you going when your absorb is down then it could make for a cool unique mix.

 

plus the dream could be real again, IH is a toggle lol

Edited September 21, 2020 by Super Atom

[Outrider_01]

Nerf regen, buff the green glow.

[kelika2]

I feel that turning Reconstruction into a heal over time like Nature/Time heals would make the set feel more Regenlike.  Either Toggle HoT, or upfront heal+HoT or just a strait up click HoT.  Either way having a renewable insp is kinda meh.

And stupid levels of -regen resist like SR can easily cap def debuff resist by itself.  slap that into Fast Healing(or metabolism) or just spread it out more.

[aethereal]

Here is a change nobody will like:

 

Instant Healing becomes a 5% (enhanceable) heal with a 1 second animation time and a 4 second base recharge time.

 

It gives a 2% damage bonus, stackable, for 5 seconds, for every percentage point of health below 50% you are (so, +100% damage bonus if below 0.5% health).

 

If you have not attacked or been attacked in 8 seconds, it does 100% heal and gives 100% endurance.

Edited September 21, 2020 by aethereal
Added damage bonus. Percent chance of this suggestion being adopted: 0.

[MTeague]

2 hours ago, macskull said:

I think the best thing to do with IH is to reduce its recharge so it's up more often. You'd probably have to reduce its regen bonus as well but combined with the other proposed changes it seems solid. Maybe give Resilience a bit more resistance as well.

I recently respecc'd my Spines/Regen stalker to add in Unleash Potential, as a weaker healing boost, but to have a solid +DEF component with it, and tend to alternate between them.

I won't argue if you guys insist on buffing my regen toons but I don't feel weak on them.

 

Admittedly, they're not Brutes, and Scrappers/Stalkers are often not expected to tank in the same way. 

But they both solo +2x4 no problem, no matter if it's council or malta or circle or carnies.

[Replacement]

I like that you've tried to be very subtle with your changes instead of revolutionary.  It's good stuff, though I'll echo that it likely needs a bit more.

 

The only thing I disagree with, which everyone will learn to hate me for, is that I do not like adding more Toggles to Regen.  I think 1 makes it interesting, and also the best at in-fight recovery (Revive gives you some pretty crazy buffs already to cover toggle recovery, but it's really nice that you can reintegrate and then get back to fighting).

 

That above paragraph is obviously a bit more personal preference than objective "need" but here's a much hotter take: Instant Healing needs to stay a long-recharge Click.

Regeneration has a Binary problem: survival means being at perfect health.  They have no sense of attrition like other sets can find themselves in.  The few exceptions to this pay in other ways.  To the original designers' credit, they recognized this.  The reason Regen juggles Clicks is because that is their attrition.  Simply roiding out their numbers and making IH a toggle just removes balance levers.

 

tl;dr: I like the set changes in the OP, and Instant Healing needs to stay a long-recharge Click.

Edited September 22, 2020 by Replacement
swapped out "long-duration" instances for "long-recharge" for clarity

[Sarrate]

3 hours ago, GenesisMan said:

Dull Pain - Add an absorption effect that slowly fades over time, otherwise the power stays the same.

Reasoning: The added absorb effect is thematic in what the power is doing, and adds a layer of survivability that doesn't break the original concept.

I understand your reasoning with absorption, but if it were me, I'd put it on Reconstruction rather than Dull Pain for a few reasons:

 

* Dull Pain has a long cooldown and won't be up very often. Even with capped recharge (+400%), you're looking at a cooldown of 72 seconds.

* Dull Pain's biggest boost is its +MaxHP, as that already increases Regen's ability to soak damage and increases the effectiveness of +regen. It's going to be more important to keep DP up than postponing its use and wasting its absorb.

* Reconstruction is up far more often, and already has issues (use it too early and you waste the heal, use it too late and you risk getting gibbed). If Recon was completely switched over to an absorb (for example) it could be used at any health level and even be used to help soften alpha strikes.

 

3 hours ago, GenesisMan said:

Resilience - Moved when power becomes available. Adds a resistance to slow effects and small +hp effect.

Reasoning: The original passive doesn't do enough on its own, and comes far too late in the build. The added slow resists shore up what I see as an unintended weakness of the set. If your recharge rate bottoms out, your heals can't recharge. Then you die. Not a fan.

Note: Between Accolades and DP, Stalkers and Scrappers can already cap HP. So the +MaxHP change would only benefit Brute. (I don't know about Sentinels, and their Regen is already different than the rest, anyways.)

[0th Power]

Time to post again...

 

how to fix regen

 

1. Give more -regen resist

2. Either lower recharge a bit or increase duration of instant healing or moment of glory 

3. give stalkers some +recovery in combination with fast healing

4. allow Rez to be used while alive (like sentinels)

5. Have the heals in dull pain and reconstruction fire off at the beginning of the animation, rather then towards the end. 

[Taboo]

@GenesisMan That sure is a pretty post.

[BrandX]

Don't care for the "Muster Resolve" power myself, but then, I don't care for the "Scales with the number of enemies around you aspect" either.

 

Fast Metabolism - Like it.

 

Reconstruction - Like it, but I do prefer Sarrate's suggestion of putting the absorb on this power instead of Dull Pain.

 

Resilience - I'd slap in -Regen Resist and a little more Toxic and Cold Resist, just as I feel those two resists should be a little more on a Regenerator, especially Toxic Resist. 🙂

 

Dull Pain - See Reconstruction.  So no change.

 

Integration - Put a little -Regen Resist in here too and able to enhance ALL of it's Regen ability.

 

Muster Resolve - I don't think this needs a recovery component.  Regen isn't lacking in the Endurance Recovery area with Fast Metabolism (or Quick Recovery in Regen as of now).  I'm guessing part of the idea is to make this the taunt aura for Brutes (maybe Tankers too).  I'd pick a number for the Absorb and then let people enhance it above that with enhancements.  So, likely base it around 1-3 enemies.

 

Instant Healing - Since it likely wouldn't be put back to Toggle, leave as is.

 

Revive/Inexorable - I love revive powers!  Might I suggest instead...the bonuses you suggest, just be passive abilities instead.  Not sure of the overtime equal to what I'm guessing would be 300-600 sec recharge for 20-30 seconds of bonuses, but do the math and then make the conversion to passive.  +5% Damage/Recharge/Rec, +10% Regen, +10% Heal (would enhance Fast Metabolism, Reconstruction, Dull Pain, Intergration and Instant Healing by another 10%).  When dead, the passive abilities become inactive and remain inactive until the power recharges (so using a wakie would have the benefit of keeping the passive bonuses, instead of that 300-600 seconds of waiting for the power to recharge).

 

Moment of Glory - Add in Psychic Resist/Defense and Positional Defense.  It's a 15 second power on a long recharge.  

 

 

EDIT: Let me not forget, make it so you can't die for 10 seconds after using the revive!  Gah, no point in a revive power, if I can't use it then and there, with enemies on top of me 😛

Edited September 22, 2020 by BrandX

[Ralathar44]

TBH my stone/regen brute has felt darn solid, I know people like to bag on regen but he ran teams and tanked from 28+ when he started putting slots into defense and he was well capable of tanking +4/8 anything but Malta for a team by the time he hit like 40.  In the rare occasions he does suddenly get spiked (usually because I'm running out of gas at the end of a session and don't self heal in time, my fault not the character) he's instantly back on his feet, regains aggro, and MoG is used if needed to regain control.   I know there are stronger sets out there but honestly I feel like Regen brute is closer to where defense sets should be.  If you're tanking +4/8 indefinitely with no buffs/support/help IMO the defense is too strong.  This is a team game and there needs to be room for the team as more than "my pocket dps" in at least in the highest difficulty or two.

Edited September 22, 2020 by Ralathar44

[BrandX]

6 minutes ago, Ralathar44 said:

TBH my stone/regen brute has felt darn solid, I know people like to bag on regen but he ran teams and tanked from 35+ when he started putting slots into defense and he is well capable of tanking +4/8 anything but Malta for a team by the time he hit 50.  In the rare occasions he does suddenly get spiked (usually because I'm running out of gas at the end of a session and don't self heal in time, my fault not the character) he's instantly back on his feet, regains aggro, and MoG is used if needed to regain control.   I know there are stronger sets out there but honestly I feel like Regen brute is closer to where defense sets should be.  If you're tanking +4/8 indefinitely with no buffs/support/help IMO the defense is too strong.  This is a team game and there needs to be room for the team as more than "my pocket dps" in at least in the highest difficulty or two.

 

I can agree, that an IOed out character doesn't need to be tanking +4/8 content, on a team without buffs or just solo without buffs, but I still never felt Regen felt as tough as other sets at lower difficulties, so I do believe it could use a bit of a look at tp up it a bit.

[Ralathar44]

50 minutes ago, BrandX said:

 

I can agree, that an IOed out character doesn't need to be tanking +4/8 content, on a team without buffs or just solo without buffs, but I still never felt Regen felt as tough as other sets at lower difficulties, so I do believe it could use a bit of a look at tp up it a bit.

That's because it's not as tough, i think that's the point.  A fully IO'd Regen brute can still benefit a good bit from team survivability buffs/debuffs where something like a fully IO'd Super Reflexes brute really doesn't even need them.

[Replacement]

No.  Regen needs buffs.  That is not the same as saying it needs to be god mode.  I don't think it's productive to turn this thread into a debate about Regen's overall performance, or - worse yet - a discussion on how much teaming needs to be a requirement.

 

All armor sets should have different strengths and weaknesses, but overall, perform on a similar footing.  Full stop.

Edited September 22, 2020 by Replacement

[Vanden]

I think the T1 Power should be Revive/whatever Revive gets turned into, so you actually get the self-rez at the point of the game where you’re actually likely to be getting defeated, rather than at the point where your build is starting to mature.

[Lines]

1 minute ago, Vanden said:

I think the T1 Power should be Revive/whatever Revive gets turned into, so you actually get the self-rez at the point of the game where you’re actually likely to be getting defeated, rather than at the point where your build is starting to mature.

But then, unless the revive gets something like the Unstoppable Treatment and has another effect, every regen Brute, Scrapper and Sentinel will be stuck with a revive power when they might not need it anymore.

 

Perhaps T2?

[Zeraphia]

IH should be a toggle. It would differentiate the set and give its namesake as the "Regenerative" set that would set it apart without being "OP."

[Vanden]

43 minutes ago, Lines said:

But then, unless the revive gets something like the Unstoppable Treatment and has another effect, every regen Brute, Scrapper and Sentinel will be stuck with a revive power when they might not need it anymore.

 

Perhaps T2?

*shrug* Lots of T1 secondary powers are of marginal use beyond being set mules in completed builds, and that includes Regen’s current T1.

Edited September 22, 2020 by Vanden

[aethereal]

T2 revive is actually a neat concept, I'm into it.

[Dragon Crush]

Quoting myself (again) from one of the topics this got brought up in some months back

 

On 12/12/2019 at 10:46 AM, Dragon Crush said:

I wouldn't worry too much about ripping off willpower a bit myself, regen was around first and will ripped off regen first.

 

So, another idea for helping regeneration I had, looking at Mids, regen Dull Pain, invulnerable Dull Pain, and ice Hoarfrost are all identical (Earth's Embrace has a longer cast time). So let's change the regen version to differentiate it a bit, they're all listed at 40% heal/+max hp (or 39.99%-40.03% depending on AT) 360 recharge, 120 duration.

My suggestions for regen version of the power -

1) 35%heal/+max HP

 

2) 330 recharge and 150 duration for better uptime

 

3) The big one - when you pick the regen version of Dull Pain, you are granted an unslottable auto power called Dulled Pain that grants 15% +max HP, and an absorb shield that ticks every 5 seconds and lasts 15 so it can triple stack for +8% absorb per tick. This will give a 24% absorb shield to soften alphas and provide a bit of a cushion through extended fights.

 

Some other suggestions I have include-

Upping the regen on Integration, maybe to 75% un-enhanceable, 150% enhanceable, as well as adding a hefty chunk of -regen resist (70%+) to the power.

 

Add some -recharge resist to Resilience, something like 20-30%. Not sure if it'd be a problem with how powers work, but maybe have it only help against -recharge and not -slow movement, would help us keep clicking those heals but not necessarily  escape the caltrops patch to escape the beating (for example).

 

Port over the sentinel version of the rez. It can be used while alive, healing and granting +max HP, with the effect being greater the lower your HP, or it can be used as a rez just in case you click it a little too late. Oh, and it recharges faster as well (250 vs 300).

 

As I also brought up in the old thread, there is no aspect of healing where regen is the best and feel that needs to change. It doesn't need to have the best clicks and best passives, but it shouldn't be 2nd for self healing.

 

I also like the idea of maybe sticking fast healing and and quick recovery together to maybe make room for another power for more tools in the kit so to speak (and as a bonus, stalkers would finally get some end recovery), as well as the other idea of adding a little absorb to reconstruction so you're less worried about wasting it.

 

Another idea I just had regarding instant healing, if it's uptime doesn't get significantly improved, maybe throw in some major debuff resistances, sort of giving the idea of "yeah you poisoned me 3 seconds ago, but I got better", to make it a better oh crap button.

[Leogunner]

On 9/21/2020 at 5:52 PM, GenesisMan said:

I'm surprised I didn't see a thread already started for this, though I'm guessing I just missed it.

 

BINGO!

 

As for the suggestion, at its base, I'm in agreement with @Ralathar44 and @MTeague in that the regen set isn't as bad as people make it out to be and you can have an extremely solid character using it.  The interesting mechanics of the set (which aren't really mechanics but moreso how the set has been built as) is the reactionary and clicky nature of it.  So it's good that your suggestion keeps that intact.  Overall, armor sets are pretty standardly boring in that they just exist on your character and little interaction is needed on your part besides maybe 1 click.  And some might argue that regeneration is supposed to be passive like in the comics and I would just point you to Willpower as comicbook-regen.  CoH regen isn't the same as comicbook regen.

 

I don't have any huge objections to your post, OP, only the scaling aspect of the set probably not being necessary.  Some sets should have scaling to differentiate it from other sets and incentivize gathering lots of foes...and some sets shouldn't scale by number of foes so you can utilize the set to maximum at any time, any place, every circumstance rather than being corralled into always herding everything.  That might make some sets more favorable to some metas like a Tanker/Brute style...but they aren't the only melee ATs and shouldn't formulate everything around their style.  Stalkers don't care how many people are around them, for example, so they'd be on an even field with the regen set (until you factor in HP caps) in their approach to dispatching foes.

 

I've posted my suggestions before on Regeneration in other threads.  I still stand by giving Regen a niche of nullification kind of like cartoon-regeneration where you drop a piano on a character, they get flattened and show visible damage with piano keys for teeth that fall out...then 2 seconds later, they are relatively back to normal.  No other set does that now except Regen.  On top of the instantaneous bouncing back nature of the set, give it debuff resistances to nearly everything (-ToHit, -regen, -rech, -movement, even -def) on every click they have that stacks the debuff res the more you have to heal back up.  So if some foe shoots a burning laser into your eyes and boils your eyes out, you're visibly screaming as your eyes drip into pools on the ground so you can't see...then you shake it off and you're back to (almost) normal.

 

That would also give the set a unique niche in that it'd be the only set with comprehensive debuff resistances solidifying it as a foundation to receive team buffs and IO bonuses.  So you're not reaching the heights of mitigation of more powerful sets like Bio or specialized sets like SR but you benefit from the utility that every point of resistance/def/regen is that much more valuable without even needing to add a single point of it into the set itself.