Bad Mission Design 101.

[MTeague]

I .... like.... these missions.... most of that though, I guess is really nostalgia from doing them before IO's ever existed. 

At SO's, on a medium ("Rugged") difficulty setting, I saw them give a few teams trouble.

 

Never again, after all the changes that have happened since then though.

[gamingglen]

I like Croatoa and often use Ouro to do the entire 4 arcs, and get the merits rewards. 🤑

 

I like that those two missions are different. I want more different.  But, those two could have the timer trimmed a little. 

[Greycat]

10 hours ago, Frostbiter said:

The one I truly hate is the mission where you have to stop so many Fir Bolg from entering the menhir ring. There's been an AI change that makes them not always stop when one of them takes damage anymore. Pure frustration if you're primarily single target attacks..

... funny, they always seem to when I'm fighting them. Granted if you miss the guy keeps running. But then, I make sure I'm not at x-anything when I'm running it, and tend to do it solo. (I'm-a keeping my 0 escape run going.)

 

I don't really find the escort here all that annoying. There are places I do, specifically because of the AI (Warburg, anything with stairs, anything with an escortee who also can... er... fight,) but as far as escort missions go, this one's cake. It's mostly straight lines. They follow fairly well. But, yeah, the 15 minute timer is mostly the gripe, here. There are so many ways to just cheese it and go AFK (bring a stormie, if you've got a taunt or confront, get a jetpack, kill all but one minion in the first wave, pin them somewhere, go get a snack.) For what in general is a really fun zone (I *like* running my magic characters through it,) it's ... watching a timer at the end of the last mission. Just not that interesting. Very soloable, yes. Just not interesting.

 

(Oh, also AI related. The taunt thing? Did that. Watched the red cap run around trying to get me, run up on the wall, miss a shot... then run for the hills somewhere. I didn't see him for 2-3 minutes afterward. That's just dumb.)

 

 

 

 

 

[Spaghetti Betty]

This very much feels like a "sign o' the times" kind of issue. Cheese aside, this mission was tough. Red Caps used to hurt. All of Croatoa suffers from that. Remember when finishing a Katie meant hoping your team could actually make it through all 10 Mary fights?

[Sovera]

Just now, Leetdeth said:

This very much feels like a "sign o' the times" kind of issue. Cheese aside, this mission was tough. Red Caps used to hurt. All of Croatoa suffers from that. Remember when finishing a Katie meant hoping your team could actually make it through all 10 Mary fights?

I still have one disband at Mary's fight. Everyone quit. We were being detoggled like mad, too many squishies were being killed in three hits by purple bosses, and of course the Hurricane spam and Lightning Storm stacking was insane. It is one of the reasons I always take Focused Accuracy since then.

 

Then there is the suicidal team where everyone gave up at the last Mary fight. Everyone? No, a small core of indomitable players still held out against the invaders! We were down to three. And PISSED! 😄 One of us goes to collect Warburg nukes. The rest stocks up on inspirations. We go back in. We dieeeeeee. We go back at it! Moar nukes, moar! Envenomed Blades! LOTS OF KITING!

 

And we got it. At something like 3 AM. Of course we did not finish the TF, but like hell we were going away with our tails tucked between our legs because of that fight 😄

[nihilii]

14 hours ago, UpandAtom said:

Those missions were supposed to just sort of let groups chill at a spot and enemies would come running towards them without players having to even move. From a certain point of view, it could've been relaxing?

That's me right there. I love both missions for this reason. Actually, I love all of Croatoa because it all seemed very experimental at the time - and still is, because devs toned it down to more conservative efforts afterwards.

 

Take this first mission. I can hang out at the stonehenge. I can defeat all but one minion of a wave and go AFK. I can aggressively seek and defeat as many waves as possible.

 

Even the hostages are set up in a way that invites options. Do I get them one by one? Or do I snag all 3 at once and make just one trip, but face bigger ambushes? (that "but" often becomes an "and", as it is an outcome I like rather than a drawback...)

It's very different from a defeat all where your only "choice" is... well, kill them all.

Even the most complex and scenarized missions from later issues don't offer this level of emergent gameplay. Sometimes you get to pick A or B, sometimes you even get to pick A or B or C or D or E, but ultimately your selection comes down to carefully designed choices from the top down.

 

There's nothing wrong with either approach, mind you. I think most people prefer their emergent gameplay to be a result of player interactions. So while I'm glad Croatoa exists, it's probably also good CoH doesn't have too much Croatoa-like content.

[Greycat]

48 minutes ago, nihilii said:

Actually, I love all of Croatoa because it all seemed very experimental at the time

Heh. Reminds me of going to check it out when in beta. Seeing mobs fighting each other... and *actually doing damage* instead of the shadowboxing they were doing before that!

[Luminara]

1 hour ago, Leetdeth said:

This very much feels like a "sign o' the times" kind of issue. Cheese aside, this mission was tough. Red Caps used to hurt. All of Croatoa suffers from that.

 

It was tough when I was struggling through it as a TA/A, back when TA was buggy and had long animation times (so not only did some of your powers not work properly, you spent a lot of time posing dramatically while critters ripped you a new one), and lieutenants spawned bosses when they self-defeated.  I had the same problems in Council missions, and it was so bad, I stopped doing Council missions on any character for almost three years, because of my experiences as a TA.  Once the bugs were fixed, and on anything with shorter animation times (including TA since Issue 11), slotting isn't really relevant, the content is so much easier it's night versus day because the player isn't fighting the powers and engine in addition to fighting critters.

 

The game does feel easier now, but a not-insignificant part of that is because there are fewer bugs of the sort that made my TA suffer so much, and because, toward the end of the game's life on the original servers, the developers finally listened and started toning down animation times (in fairness, BAB did what he could in Issue 11 and subsequent Issues, until he was let go).  I'm really not exaggerating when I say that an underslotted controller or defender can easily handle this mission now, even doing it the "classic" way, fighting every wave, because now, their powers work properly, and quickly, and the game has fewer bugs.

[Frostbiter]

9 hours ago, Greycat said:

... funny, they always seem to when I'm fighting them. Granted if you miss the guy keeps running. But then, I make sure I'm not at x-anything when I'm running it, and tend to do it solo. (I'm-a keeping my 0 escape run going.)

 

I don't really find the escort here all that annoying. There are places I do, specifically because of the AI (Warburg, anything with stairs, anything with an escortee who also can... er... fight,) but as far as escort missions go, this one's cake. It's mostly straight lines. They follow fairly well. But, yeah, the 15 minute timer is mostly the gripe, here. There are so many ways to just cheese it and go AFK (bring a stormie, if you've got a taunt or confront, get a jetpack, kill all but one minion in the first wave, pin them somewhere, go get a snack.) For what in general is a really fun zone (I *like* running my magic characters through it,) it's ... watching a timer at the end of the last mission. Just not that interesting. Very soloable, yes. Just not interesting.

 

(Oh, also AI related. The taunt thing? Did that. Watched the red cap run around trying to get me, run up on the wall, miss a shot... then run for the hills somewhere. I didn't see him for 2-3 minutes afterward. That's just dumb.)

 

 

 

 

 

I'm glad it hasn't given you any trouble but that sort of came off as a l2p post.

[Llewellyn Blackwell]

25 minutes ago, Frostbiter said:

I'm glad it hasn't given you any trouble but that sort of came off as a l2p post.

So? L2P posts are valid posts, especially because in the world of gamer speak players calling content they dont like personally bad design, is code for them actually being bad gamers. Croatoa content has been to the best of my knowledge on live, and now some of the content everyone seems to try to play through at level because its so beloved.

 

So clearly the OPs dislike for it is largely personal, not objective. Because content that popular must be so for some good reasons. I myself tend to do it mainly only on magical toons, but that is because I tend to focus on content based on concept more then reward. As some others have said the content actually has a kind of laid back vibe to it really. sure it draws some stuff out but in the era it was made in that was still a pretty mild time sink in such games. As for hostages and escorts, Ill say it again CoH moreso then any  other kind of genre of MMO is the kind that such content fits and makes sense and helps to immerse one in the world. Sure the ai could be abit better, but over all I find NPC allies and hostages are pretty tolerable to lead about. I also am one of those who like the added extra bit of challenge when soloing such as a stalker and needing to put the concern of my ward over myself and need to get rough and brutal fighting our way to freedom like daredevil at the end of episode 2 season 1!

 

So frankly I rather wish we had more stuff that was flavorful with allies and escorts that forced players to adapt and step out of their comfort zone of mass murder.

[Frostbiter]

It's a judgement based on lack of actual knowedge of me in this case. I don't have to defend myself or my ability and I'm not going too. What I am going to do is pass judgement of my own. Don't expect me to respect the opinions of someone who does that to me. 

[Riverdusk]

2 hours ago, Llewellyn Blackwell said:

So? L2P posts are valid posts, especially because in the world of gamer speak players calling content they dont like personally bad design, is code for them actually being bad gamers.

Or it is actually bad design. 

[Luminara]

2 hours ago, Llewellyn Blackwell said:

players calling content they dont like personally bad design, is code for them actually being bad gamers.

 

2 hours ago, Llewellyn Blackwell said:

So clearly the OPs dislike for it is largely personal, not objective.

 

Probably would've been a good idea to read some of my other posts before trying to troll me with comments like that.  That was so painfully obvious and laughably off, it's not even worth wasting the time to counter.  Back under your bridge, Bentley.

[Greycat]

5 hours ago, Frostbiter said:

I'm glad it hasn't given you any trouble but that sort of came off as a l2p post.

Well, that's on you and  you're reading. I put it more as "but I make it easy on myself," not "YOU SCREWUP!"

Edited September 27, 2020 by Greycat
Clarification.

[Coyote]

On 9/26/2020 at 12:14 PM, Luminara said:

the fetid corpse of this failed abortion still polluting the entirety of

 

Gonna steal this line on a post or two 😛

[Onemantankwall]

Calls it lack of challenge but also runs it on easy mode +0. Then complains that the mish is bad while completely ignoring the story of the content you just wanna speed run. You save the 3 hostages so they can cast the spell at Henge to save Croatoa.

 

At this point Red Caps throwing waves of everything they got to interrupt this spell so the creatures can break free and wreak havoc. Turns out this spell is a dousy and requires 3 people 15 mins to focus and  cast.

 

You and your team holding off the redcap army long enough to save all of croatoa (and possibly more) which is a pretty cool finale.

 

Imagine playing content for the uk.... "content" and not to just see MISSION COMPLETE! as fast as possible because you hate the game and want to speed through it as fast as possible so you can go burnout on another game next. 

 

Only thing this mish needs is a suitable finale AV boss at the near end of the spell cast as a suitable big bang to the only arc thats not in a city.

 

Edit: 100% sure majority of croatoa was to either to test or show off their new AI pathing which back then was ground breaking stuff. Got alot of one of a kind tower defenses in this arc.

 

Edited September 27, 2020 by Onemantankwall

[Luminara]

10 minutes ago, Onemantankwall said:

Calls it lack of challenge but also runs it on easy mode +0.

 

The mission will only ever spawn one wave at a time.  It doesn't matter what the difficulty setting is, or at what speed the player defeats the wave, there's only, ever, one wave at any given point in time.  If anything, it's less challenging than a standard mission, any other mission, in the game because there aren't even any nearby spawns to aggro or potential ambushes to spawn from interacting with anything.  Whether you're capable of completing the mission only at +0/x1, or all the way up to +4/x8, it's still one wave at a time.  That's spoon-feeding, not a challenge.

 

21 minutes ago, Onemantankwall said:

Then complains that the mish is bad while completely ignoring the story of the content you just wanna speed run.

 

I clear maps.  I don't speed run.  The only speed I care about, I've ever cared about, is how fast I can jump.  Yes, I said I could've done two other missions in the same time I was waiting there.  That was an example.  I could also jump from one end of IP to the other.  Or climbed buildings and jumped from rooftop to rooftop in another zone.  Or collect badges.  Or craft the recipes sitting in my inventory.  The point wasn't that the XP gain was poor, it was that the timer is a horrible restriction that can't be bypassed in any way short of auto-complete or allowing it to fail, and it prevents players from doing anything else.

 

And the content?  I spent seven years paying attention to the content.  I know what's going on there.  What I also know is that the timer doesn't create tension or drama, or add to the story.  Being locked into that content for the duration of the countdown isn't exciting, it's tedious.  The waves don't come any faster as the timer counts down.  They don't spawn more difficult enemies the closer it comes to zero.  Nothing differentiates success by defeating every wave versus AFKing the first wave.  The content doesn't improve because the timer is there, and the player experience (meaning what one experiences, not MOAR EXES AND PEAS) does suffer.

 

The final mission of the Faultline arcs is good.  Incredibly well designed, in fact.  It's as challenging or as easy as you decide it should be, based entirely on your actions, or lack of action if you let the EBs/AVs fight amongst themselves.  It's direct, gets straight to the point and doesn't monkey around with unnecessary restrictions.  All of the mechanics in use in that mission are sensible and enhance the context of the content.  The final mission in Croatoa is none of that.  It's a spot where you stand, a timer counting down and waves which are so strictly controlled and paced that they never present a real challenge, or threat, or even a dramatic presentation of the content.

 

53 minutes ago, Onemantankwall said:

Imagine playing content for the uk.... "content" and not to just see MISSION COMPLETE! as fast as possible because you hate the game and want to speed through it as fast as possible so you can go burnout on another game next.

 

Imagine not presuming I'm that kind of player.  I have several hundred posts, feel free to read any of them, you'll note that I'm not a flash-in-the-pan player.  Seven years as a TA should prove something, other than my questionable sanity.

 

57 minutes ago, Onemantankwall said:

Only thing this mish needs is a suitable finale AV boss at the near end of the spell cast as a suitable big bang to the only arc thats not in a city.

 

That would be interesting, but it would still be 12-14 minutes of boredom before it reached that point.  As long as the timer is there, as long as only one wave can exist at any time, it's still badly designed.

[Judasace]

15 hours ago, Leetdeth said:

This very much feels like a "sign o' the times" kind of issue. Cheese aside, this mission was tough. Red Caps used to hurt. All of Croatoa suffers from that. Remember when finishing a Katie meant hoping your team could actually make it through all 10 Mary fights?

Actually the only thing I ever remember worrying about in a Katie was whether or not Amy would get stuck while being escorted. Bad mission design = every single kidnap/escort mission in the game. With characters like Lady Grey, Fusionette and the General being suicidal causing a mission failure, Jimmy throwing on granite armor and becoming useless the rest of the mission, Amy getting stuck and then her spirit aggroing everything on the map, and the myriad of hostages and kidnapping victims that wont keep up. Hell, even in some of the last content they made, the DA incarnate stories, Spicolli will spend the entire mission stuck in a rock if you're not careful.

 

The only one of these guys that has never given me an arse ache is Mr. Yin. That man can hustle, and knows how to get around the corner...and he's not even wearing any shoes!

 

At least most combat NPCs can see through stealth,  not totally invalidating the Stalker's playstyle on these missions. So I guess there's that.

[Onemantankwall]

1 hour ago, Luminara said:

 

The mission will only ever spawn one wave at a time.  It doesn't matter what the difficulty setting is, or at what speed the player defeats the wave, there's only, ever, one wave at any given point in time.  If anything, it's less challenging than a standard mission, any other mission, in the game because there aren't even any nearby spawns to aggro or potential ambushes to spawn from interacting with anything.  Whether you're capable of completing the mission only at +0/x1, or all the way up to +4/x8, it's still one wave at a time.  That's spoon-feeding, not a challenge.

 

 

I clear maps.  I don't speed run.  The only speed I care about, I've ever cared about, is how fast I can jump.  Yes, I said I could've done two other missions in the same time I was waiting there.  That was an example.  I could also jump from one end of IP to the other.  Or climbed buildings and jumped from rooftop to rooftop in another zone.  Or collect badges.  Or craft the recipes sitting in my inventory.  The point wasn't that the XP gain was poor, it was that the timer is a horrible restriction that can't be bypassed in any way short of auto-complete or allowing it to fail, and it prevents players from doing anything else.

 

And the content?  I spent seven years paying attention to the content.  I know what's going on there.  What I also know is that the timer doesn't create tension or drama, or add to the story.  Being locked into that content for the duration of the countdown isn't exciting, it's tedious.  The waves don't come any faster as the timer counts down.  They don't spawn more difficult enemies the closer it comes to zero.  Nothing differentiates success by defeating every wave versus AFKing the first wave.  The content doesn't improve because the timer is there, and the player experience (meaning what one experiences, not MOAR EXES AND PEAS) does suffer.

 

The final mission of the Faultline arcs is good.  Incredibly well designed, in fact.  It's as challenging or as easy as you decide it should be, based entirely on your actions, or lack of action if you let the EBs/AVs fight amongst themselves.  It's direct, gets straight to the point and doesn't monkey around with unnecessary restrictions.  All of the mechanics in use in that mission are sensible and enhance the context of the content.  The final mission in Croatoa is none of that.  It's a spot where you stand, a timer counting down and waves which are so strictly controlled and paced that they never present a real challenge, or threat, or even a dramatic presentation of the content.

 

 

Imagine not presuming I'm that kind of player.  I have several hundred posts, feel free to read any of them, you'll note that I'm not a flash-in-the-pan player.  Seven years as a TA should prove something, other than my questionable sanity.

 

 

That would be interesting, but it would still be 12-14 minutes of boredom before it reached that point.  As long as the timer is there, as long as only one wave can exist at any time, it's still badly designed.

I believe Croatoa finale set the stage for nightward mansion defense finale where everything and the kitchen sink came at you. Tech wasnt there yet when croat released. I wouldnt mind a revamp like nightward but then others hate how "hard" it is so cant make everyone happy

[siolfir]

39 minutes ago, Judasace said:

At least most combat NPCs can see through stealth,  not totally invalidating the Stalker's playstyle on these missions. So I guess there's that.

No, they still invalidate it; the Stalker is hidden and the NPC isn't, so draws aggro.

 

The best one for me though is during a Patron arc when you're rescuing a non-combat KoA - a group that normally ignores stealth - and you have to escort the only one in existence who can't see you with Hide active (yes, I know it's because she's a non-combatant: it's still stupid).

[Sakura Tenshi]

I do agree that Croatoa as a whole is a nice break, but the missions and so forth do need some massive revamping, and on a personal level I feel like all the mobs need tweaking and the zone and mission maps could use some updates.

 

Off the top of my head, I'd say if I were to remake that last mission, I would have three mages already at the stone circle and the ritual started, counting down from 15 minutes (sorry), enemy mobs are already ambushing in earnest, but throughout the town you (or preferably a splinter of your team) can split off and find hostage mages, they don't need to be escorted, they will teleport to the hedge, but each time you free one the ambush size scales up, but with this the timer drops down. With all six mages (who are, by the way, unkillable) the ritual will only be 90 seconds and the three will cast a tripled stacked HoT on the Stone Hedge objects. The downside is that with all six mages an EB snaptooth and Jack-in-irons spawns in. Now, I imagine the initial wave of ambushes would be pretty manageable and spaced out, maybe even leaving the exploit where you could leave one alive and the next ambush wouldn't spawn, this is meant to give the player a chance to grab the first two mages (who shorten the time down by five minutes each) while activating two independent ambush spawns that will spawn enemies at a timed interval in contrast to the first one needing mob completion.

 

Another idea for the 'Stop 30 Fir Bolg' mission is pretty simple: instead of necessarily waiting for each group to spawn one by one, the whole army starts spawned in on the map, in formation and 'protected' by a trio of bosses. So you can take the more preemptive and aggressive approach to smash the army before they start sending squads in (and also if you listen into some dialogue and explanation why only so many are going in at a time) and face a whole army, or you can wait by the gates as the come in squad by squad. Or try something in between where you wait for the army to weaken to a certain point before diving in.

 

Would you like to know more?

[Auranyte]

I swear I remember that mission not only spawning faster waves(and more of them) but I swear the map was also slightly bigger than currently.  I want to say the park fence entrance was included as was that road around it, and you could get spawns in the middle of that road close to the objective while fighting the previous waves down the ramp.

[Eva Destruction]

40 minutes ago, Sakura Tenshi said:

Another idea for the 'Stop 30 Fir Bolg' mission is pretty simple: instead of necessarily waiting for each group to spawn one by one, the whole army starts spawned in on the map, in formation and 'protected' by a trio of bosses. So you can take the more preemptive and aggressive approach to smash the army before they start sending squads in (and also if you listen into some dialogue and explanation why only so many are going in at a time) and face a whole army, or you can wait by the gates as the come in squad by squad. Or try something in between where you wait for the army to weaken to a certain point before diving in.

 

 

That's pretty much how it works now.  The entire map is spawned when you load in.  The problem is that you don't know which direction the runners will come from so you can at best clear out one or two  spawns before going back to the door to wait for the next wave.

[Sakura Tenshi]

@Eva Destruction
I probably should have clarified that the army would be in a massed formation on a set part of the map than scattered to the ten winds.

[FoulVileTerror]

Something like this, @Sakura Tenshi?

 

Mission Start:

All enemies start together in a large army formation.

 

Time Elapsed 30 Seconds:

Enemies fan out to their defensive locations.

 

And then after that, the little pocket mobs attempt to pass through the objective, as normal.

 

 

If that's accurate, the idea's neat . . . though I think it might be a little too late to implement on this particular mission.

Maybe hold it in reserve for some new content?