Focused Feedback: Energy Melee Revamp

[Infinitum]

2 minutes ago, Vanden said:

Why are you pushing back so hard on this? Seriously, I want to know. What is it about the proposal that Barrage or Bone Smasher, when used with focus, go from mag 3 scale 8 stun to mag 3 scale 10 stun, that compels you to respond with typical dick-swinging "1v1 me, bro" forum attitude? If you truly think it's a non-issue you can just say so and move on, there's no call for this level of hostility to the proposal.

It was just an offering to demonstrate for you.

 

You are a bit over the top here.

Edited October 31, 2020 by Infinitum

[Troo]

48 minutes ago, Bopper said:

EDIT: I don't think Stalker Barrage got the update, just Brutes, Scrappers and Tankers

 

EDIT 2: I think Stalker did not change, only the other ATs. So Bone Smasher is still the spender

Stalkers got the Bone Smasher change. BS is no longer the spender.

(not sure about Barrage yet)

[Super Atom]

Not sure how much i like this change for scrappers, for the smallest baby reason on the planet. I generally don't take barrage 😛  However, I can adapt because set still good. RIP energy punch, you had a good run. 2004 - 2020

 

 

Also

 

Quote

Cottage Rule!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Cottage rule was a rule of thumb by one developer who himself was willing to break it if it would benefit the set, let's not hold people to a thing one guy said once a decade ago unless Bonesmasher literally starts building cottages folks. it wasn't even positron or statesmans rule either, and they had more power.

Edited October 31, 2020 by Super Atom

[ScarySai]

Every time you use ET, a random cottage somewhere far away violently explodes, killing everybody inside.

 

A necessary sacrifice for dimension breaking fists.

[Bopper]

38 minutes ago, Vanden said:

What is it about the proposal that Barrage or Bone Smasher, when used with focus, go from mag 3 scale 8 stun to mag 3 scale 10 stun

I see what you're saying, but I think it would be a hard sell to be exactly what Stun used to be as Barrage and BS do not have the 20s recharge Stun used to have (though I can see the argument of TF being tied to the effect with its own 20s recharge), nor its 10.2 endurance cost nor its 1.8s cast time. I think we have to accept the compromise of Scale 8 being a fair value even as an EF spender. You did get the magnitude increased to 3 for Barrage which was good and appreciated, but stretching the scale out to 10 feels like a lot for an effect that was not originally in the design plans (only the Regen debuff and -Special was included).

Edited October 31, 2020 by Bopper

[Vanden]

38 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

It was just an offering to demonstrate for you.

 

You are a bit over the top here.

What was it Scary Sai said?

47 minutes ago, ScarySai said:

either put your money where your mouth is and let me prove you wrong - lose this argument gracefully, or just be ignored.

That reads to me like an attempt to shout me down, followed by declaring himself the winner.

 

13 minutes ago, Bopper said:

I see what you're saying, but I think it would be a hard sell to be exactly what Stun used to be as Barrage and BS do not have the 20s recharge Stun used to have (though I can see the argument of TF being tied to the effect with its own 20s recharge), nor its 10.2 endurance cost nor its 1.8s cast time. I think we have to accept the compromise of Scale 8 being a fair value even as an EF spender. You did get the magnitude increased to 3 for Barrage which was good and appreciated, but stretching the scale out to 10 feels like a lot for an effect that was not originally in the design plans (only the Regen debuff and -Special was included).

All fair points, but I feel that losing the opportunity for a Fast ET or extra targets on PC by spending focus on a guaranteed stun was a fair opportunity cost for those benefits you describe.

Edited October 31, 2020 by Vanden

[Troo]

1 hour ago, Vanden said:

You can say that players won't need the stun all day, but it doesn't change the fact that the changes are taking the guaranteed stun out of the set and away from players. The framework is already in place to allow the set and players who want it to keep the effect, so there's no reason not to put it in there.

I'm with you defending stuns in the set, but I think this does sometimes get confused with the power Stun.

 

The power Stun didn't do anything that Total Focus doesn't do. (I'm pretty sure that is correct)

 

That said, having two big 100% chance for stuns had their uses, especially after the slow Energy Transfer implementation.

With both quicker ET & TF.. I don't think Stun is quite as critical as a power. Many of the other powers also have some stun with ET and BS both at 60%, mag 3, 9 to 10 second-ish.

 

 

To all: I think stun resistance affects duration not if it can be stunned on not. Can anyone confirm?

Edited October 31, 2020 by Troo

[Captain Powerhouse]

For clarity, since it is not visible in the power info:

When you do Focused Barrage, the stun is not 10% chance of Mag 2, scale 6, but instead 100% chance for Mag 3, Scale 8.

[siolfir]

1 hour ago, Keen said:

I was referring to the debuffs though, I don't care much about the stun. Originally I'd skip Barrage like the plague, but all my Stalkers are big target killers and the more debuffs the better, so now I "have" to take Barrage. That is purely a cosmetic issue though, I just dislike Barrage's animation is all.

But you can either take Barrage and skip Energy Punch, which trades DPA for utility (Barrage is the worst single target attack in the set for DPA); take both making for a tight build; or just use charges on Energy Transfer, where the extra damage/DPA will get you faster kills compared to a 15% regen debuff against an even-level AV (after AV resistances).

 

In exchange, you can use Bone Smasher without burning EF charges, which is useful not only for double-EF on Stalkers and Scrappers after a TF crit, but also for Tankers and Brutes when you miss with that fast Energy Transfer and want to still attack while it recharges - which is why I would be against adding it to all of the powers as was suggested earlier.

 

In case it wasn't obvious from reading my earlier posts in the thread, I like the change to move the Focus spender to Barrage. I'm surprised (pleasantly) at the critical damage in Energy Transfer - I was hoping for a larger critical in Total Focus but moving the extra damage there allows it to be available more often and is likely a stronger buff.

 

38 minutes ago, Troo said:

To all: I think stun resistance affects duration not if it can be stunned on not. Can anyone confirm?

Yes, resistance affects duration, protection affects whether or not it happens.

 

Edit to add: as a side note, putting the focus-generated stun in Barrage, which had such a low chance for a mag 2 stun, makes it easier to stack stuns (for those like @Vanden who are concerned about such things) since Bone Smasher was more likely to stun than not without it.

Edited October 31, 2020 by siolfir

[Bopper]

One thing I've brought up in the past for other reasons, but I'd like to offer up again now that Barrage is an EF spender. Can Energy Punch be moved to the T1 for Tankers?

 

This will allow players to not be forced into taking an EF Release power if they so choose. Most builds will struggle to be able to fit all three of Energy Punch, Barrage, and Bonesmasher. Allowing EP to be the T1, players who are stuck choosing 2 of the 3 can choose between a DPS route (BS) or a control/debuff route (Barrage). The current set up takes that decision away, as they are only left with the choice of taking two similar DPA attacks. EP might be chosen for easier filler, but BS might be chosen for some extra control and crunchy hits, but no matter the choice the result will be similar damage performance.

 

Aside from that, I have one more request. Can Power Crash get a slight buff for non-stalker ATs? Currently it is set to a 9s recharge, I would like that increased to 10s with the damage and endurance adjusting accordingly. This PC request is not a hill I would die on, as I love the set for where it currently is, but I wanted to put my thoughts on record for consideration.

 

[Super Atom]

4 minutes ago, Bopper said:

One thing I've brought up in the past for other reasons, but I'd like to offer up again now that Barrage is an EF spender. Can Energy Punch be moved to the T1 for Tankers?

 

This will allow players to not be forced into taking an EF Release power if they so choose. Most builds will struggle to be able to fit all three of Energy Punch, Barrage, and Bonesmasher. Allowing EP to be the T1, players who are stuck choosing 2 of the 3 can choose between a DPS route (BS) or a control/debuff route (Barrage). The current set up takes that decision away, as they are only left with the choice of taking two similar DPA attacks. EP might be chosen for easier filler, but BS might be chosen for some extra control and crunchy hits, but no matter the choice the result will be similar damage performance.

 

Aside from that, I have one more request. Can Power Crash get a slight buff for non-stalker ATs? Currently it is set to a 9s recharge, I would like that increased to 10s with the damage and endurance adjusting accordingly. This PC request is not a hill I would die on, as I love the set for where it currently is, but I wanted to put my thoughts on record for consideration.

 

won't this just force tankers who do want it to have to take BA AND EP? Usually, T1/T2 is a one or the other choice, not both.

 

This is primarily why i don't like it in T1/T2 in any AT. Solve one problem by creating another. While before BS was just a "Use the power better", We've created forcing people to take barrage.

Edited October 31, 2020 by Super Atom

[Bopper]

24 minutes ago, Super Atom said:

won't this just force tankers who do want it to have to take BA AND EP? Usually, T1/T2 is a one or the other choice, not both.

 

This is primarily why i don't like it in T1/T2 in any AT. Solve one problem by creating another. While before BS was just a "Use the power better", We've created forcing people to take barrage.

EP is currently on par with BS in terms of damage (BS slightly stronger in DPA, but the difference isn't so much that if you were forced to take EP and not take BS, you wouldn't feel like you're hindered. Whereas if you are forced to take Barrage and you have no intentions to use it as a spender, you will feel hindered.

 

It's not a demand by any means. If I made a tank and am forced to take Barrage, so be it. I'll pick one of the strong DPA attacks and live without the other. But having a choice in pursuing one route over the other would be nice. 

 

But my opinion is just my own. If tank players prefer having Barrage as their T1 and have no interest in Energy Punch,  then I definitely don't want to take that away from them

Edited October 31, 2020 by Bopper

[Super Atom]

9 minutes ago, Bopper said:

EP is currently on par with BS in terms of damage

😞 

 

10 minutes ago, Bopper said:

It's not a demand by any means. If I made a tank and am forced to take Barrage, so be it. I'll pick one of the strong DPA attacks and live without the other. But having a choice in pursuing one route over the other would be nice. 

 

But my opinion is just my own. If tank players prefer having Barrage as their T1 and have no interest in Energy Punch,  then I definitely don't want to take that away from them

Is there any reason why they can't pick between T1/T2 right from the start? I never quite understood the reasoning behind locking it on any AT for primary/secondary other than trying to save a power choice for leveling from ye-olden coh

[ABlueThingy]

6 minutes ago, Super Atom said:

Is there any reason why they can't pick between T1/T2 right from the start? I never quite understood the reasoning behind locking it on any AT for primary/secondary other than trying to save a power choice for leveling from ye-olden coh

They actually tried to change that a few patches ago if I remember right.  It broke stuff

 

Apparently the game is extremely hardcoded to assume you have the T1 on your secondary and requires a lot of uprooting to change that.

[ScarySai]

This game is such a miraculous set of messes that happens to work, I love it.

[Super Atom]

I think the change as is then is the only real way to have a middle ground solution to the third spender for everyone.

[Bopper]

10 minutes ago, Super Atom said:

I think the change as is then is the only real way to have a middle ground solution to the third spender for everyone.

You might be right on that.

[Haijinx]

On 10/24/2020 at 1:42 PM, ScarySai said:

Huge fan of power crash on stalkers, when it's up, it hurts.

 

The focus mechanic is neat too, though I do think it shouldn't be exclusively generated from total focus - it would probably be a balancing nightmare to add that to the other powers in some form, though.

 

Are you unironically defending stun, of all powers here?

What about add it to build up?

 

Though that might be crazy on stalkers.

[Coyote]

I really like the new changes. Bopper's idea of moving EP to Tier 1 for Tanks isn't a bad one... but it's fine without the changes. I have a El/EM Tank parked on Live now just impatiently waiting for the changes.

[Infinitum]

Just now, ScarySai said:

I can't wait for regen to get a buff, so people can cry and beg to eat floor once again, saying the old, pre-buff version was amazing or whatever.

Oh it will happen.  

 

1 minute ago, Coyote said:

I really like the new changes. Bopper's idea of moving EP to Tier 1 for Tanks isn't a bad one... but it's fine without the changes. I have a El/EM Tank parked on Live now just impatiently waiting for the changes.

I wouldnt be for that as a die hard tanker - barrage I don't mind but the - regen could come in handy and I pick more for defenses on my tankers, I wouldn't have room for both.

 

I would want to keep barrage at the T1

[Coyote]

1 minute ago, Infinitum said:

I wouldnt be for that as a die hard tanker - barrage I don't mind but the - regen could come in handy and I pick more for defenses on my tankers, I wouldn't have room for both.

 

I would want to keep barrage at the T1

 

For my Tanker, my choice would be Barrage/Bonesmasher. However, Bopper made a good point: going Barrage/EP instead is fine, they're almost the same thing. But this would also give the option of going Bonesmasher/EP, which would be a DPS route, and I think it's a good idea to open up different design paths for a character. This is forcing all Tanks into the Control/Debuff path, while the change would allow for a separate DPS path, with only a slight loss of effectiveness for the Control/Debuff path (since it would now go with Barrage/EP instead of Barrage/Bonesmasher).

[Infinitum]

I see barrage as more a reward to tankers - scrappers and stalkers get double focus with TF crit - normally wouldn't take barrage.  Tankers would have a supply for - regen which would come in handy in a team setting.

[Super Atom]

Just now, Coyote said:

 

For my Tanker, my choice would be Barrage/Bonesmasher. However, Bopper made a good point: going Barrage/EP instead is fine, they're almost the same thing. But this would also give the option of going Bonesmasher/EP, which would be a DPS route, and I think it's a good idea to open up different design paths for a character. This is forcing all Tanks into the Control/Debuff path, while the change would allow for a separate DPS path, with only a slight loss of effectiveness for the Control/Debuff path (since it would now go with Barrage/EP instead of Barrage/Bonesmasher).

Boppers idea for a freedom of choice is a good one, i just wish it was able to be made so they could pick either one at the start and not try and force either having both T1/T2 or no mechanic. On my tank, I'd rather not have T1/T2 using up two power choices. As we've learned from the post before, don't think its possible sadly 😞

[Infinitum]

1 minute ago, Coyote said:

 

For my Tanker, my choice would be Barrage/Bonesmasher. However, Bopper made a good point: going Barrage/EP instead is fine, they're almost the same thing. But this would also give the option of going Bonesmasher/EP, which would be a DPS route, and I think it's a good idea to open up different design paths for a character. This is forcing all Tanks into the Control/Debuff path, while the change would allow for a separate DPS path, with only a slight loss of effectiveness for the Control/Debuff path (since it would now go with Barrage/EP instead of Barrage/Bonesmasher).

Thats kinda what a tanks role is though - melee controller.

 

I take barrage, WH, TF, and ET on my tanks - while EP wouldn't be a bad option smh wise - I want the - regen on my tankers.

[Haijinx]

9 minutes ago, ScarySai said:

I can't wait for regen to get a buff, so people can cry and beg to eat floor once again, saying the old, pre-buff version was amazing or whatever.

Nerf Regen