Focused Feedback: Blaster Secondary Revamp

[Troo]

3 minutes ago, Vanden said:

Touch of the Beyond had an accuracy boost because it was the only sustain that could fail entirely on a single missed ToHit check. Now that the sustain effect is autohit there's no need for the accuracy bonus.

While that may be true, it is not in the notes and is a significant change. There is nothing here to refute or argue with.

[Vanden]

3 minutes ago, Troo said:

While that may be true, it is not in the notes and is a significant change. There is nothing here to refute or argue with.

Unfortunately, the devs are still human, and they miss things. There was an entire thread in closed beta dedicated to just reading the patch notes and pointing out changes that were missed. A change not being in the patch notes just means they made a mistake.

[Jacke]

21 minutes ago, Vanden said:

Touch of the Beyond had an accuracy boost because it was the only sustain that could fail entirely on a single missed ToHit check. Now that the sustain effect is autohit there's no need for the accuracy bonus.

Here I'm with @Vanden.  i26p5 has ToB with accuracy 1.5, which is very rare.  i27p1 still has it at 1.2, which is quite good.  But as @Troo points out, it should be in the patch notes.

 

And Dark Mastery should have a 35ft stealth power on a toggle.  A Dark/Dark Blaster should have 35ft stealth in either the primary or secondary, same as all the other Dark/Dark toons (except Dark/Dark Dominators, but that's a harder change and out-of-scope for i27p1).

 

Death Shroud could have that 35ft stealth added.  And like the new Dynamo, when under stealth, the damage from the aura can be suppressed.

 

 

Edited November 16, 2020 by Jacke

[Jacke]

2 minutes ago, Vanden said:

Unfortunately, the devs are still human, and they miss things. There was an entire thread in closed beta dedicated to just reading the patch notes and pointing out changes that were missed. A change not being in the patch notes just means they made a mistake.

Very sympathetic with this.  I'm currently in the middle of redoing a project just because I didn't keep a good set of change notes the first time.

 

Which is one of the many reasons to test.  To make sure the patch notes match the actual changes.

[Mystic Fortune]

1 hour ago, Kenweir said:

No melee attacks (which has been stated time and time and time again in reference to the range cut and the initial statement of "encouraging blasters to enter melee range" and yes, I know 50-60 feet isn't melee range but it's what was said) so where are you gonna get s/l defenses from?

I didn't have trouble soft capping S/L on an i27 Archery/TA Blaster...

 

 

[Wavicle]

Just now, Mystic Fortune said:

I didn't have trouble soft capping S/L on an i27 Archery/TA Blaster...

 

 

Oops!

[Saikochoro]

1 hour ago, Kenweir said:

No melee attacks (which has been stated time and time and time again in reference to the range cut and the initial statement of "encouraging blasters to enter melee range" and yes, I know 50-60 feet isn't melee range but it's what was said) so where are you gonna get s/l defenses from?

No PBAOE attacks so ... no s/l there either.

 

Oil slick only takes certain sets, there's only a tiny amount of s/l in there, I'd have to double-check on Test.

You can't slot superior avalanche ANYWHERE in Arch/Tac Arrow ... Time Bomb in Devices, there we go.

Honestly, if I worked at it and yanked some slots out of powers I'd rather not take some from, I probably could in Tac Arrow ... multi-slot Gymnastics, move some other things around, change some things, might be doable. It absolutely guts my build though to do so. Complete respec and re-buy of enhancements from the bottom up.

 

The larger point I was making ... it's EASY to do on most other sets, with melee powers, pet powers, PBAOE's, etc.. It's much, much harder to do with Tac Arrow and requires significant sacrifices to def cap. Because if it didn't, mine would be capped.

It still throws the "too safe" argument out the window. It's EASY on devices. It's easy on multiple secondaries. Why is Tac Arrow having solid range so much SAFER (and evidently so much of a problem?) than these other secondaries that have many other options for defense, or mitigation, or anything, really. Not to mention, if I pair devices with radiation, for instance, I can slam my foes with -DEF on every attack. What does Arch/Tac Arrow get again? Oh right, it's "too safe" with one of the most resisted damage types.

Again, I disagree with the range cuts. Some of the other things too. You don't and that's fine. I'll likely shelve my blaster. I won't lose any sleep over it, I'll just play my sentinel instead. You won't lose any sleep over it either. It's fine. I've had my say, you've had yours. End of the day, they'll change what they want to change.

 

Enjoy the rest of your weekend!

Not getting softcap defenses on tac arrow is on you not the set. Tac arrow can be build to softcap s/l/e and ranged if you want to.  Just because the set itself doesn’t include melee or pbaoe doesn’t mean that pool powers can’t be used for such. It is not unheard of to slot of pool powers or even to use them as mules. This is certainly not unique to tac arrow. 
 

Tac arrow has a big advantage of being able to do everything at range thus providing it with a good amount of safety. It can also achieve softcaps just like any other blaster secondary. Again, not achieving softcaps with tac arrow is a build choice. 

Edited November 16, 2020 by Saikochoro

[Kenweir]

12 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

Oops!

Nice job misquoting what I said ... THIS is actually what *I* said.

Why are you so vehemently defending this change? Have you played it before AND after the change? I have, others have. Why are you so absolutely DEAD-SET that it MUST happen above all else?

I'm done, tag me, quote me, I'm NOT coming back to engage with you.

[Wavicle]

nevermind, misread.

I haven't looked at all the possible builds, but I'm pretty sure the answer is still, it's a build choice.

Edited November 16, 2020 by Wavicle

[GM Tock]

Removed some posts.  Try to be kind to each other.

 

Thanks.

[Chris24601]

2 hours ago, Wavicle said:

That is 100% a player issue. You have the tools (moving closer) to deal with the problem.

First, the lack of a range counter makes that trickier than you intimate. Again, the issue is that unless you always open with the shorter range powers, you have to GUESS whether everything is in range or not before you start and if you're wrong... "DERP!" goes the 'not in range' sound effect as soon as you hit that part of your attack chain.

 

Second, you're basically telling a whole group of people "you're playing it wrong" because it doesn't personally affect you... while at least a dozen players in this thread alone have said it will wreck their play experience.

[Wavicle]

2 minutes ago, Chris24601 said:

First, the lack of a range counter makes that trickier than you intimate. Again, the issue is that unless you always open with the shorter range powers, you have to GUESS whether everything is in range or not before you start and if you're wrong... "DERP!" goes the 'not in range' sound effect as soon as you hit that part of your attack chain.

 

Second, you're basically telling a whole group of people "you're playing it wrong" because it doesn't personally affect you... while at least a dozen players in this thread alone have said it will wreck their play experience.

All I'm saying is that the design of all blasters forces you to either close to use certain abilities or (the other way of looking at it) wait for your enemies to close to use certain abilities. That has always been true. The immobilizes are among those abilities.

[golstat2003]

41 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

All I'm saying is that the design of all blasters forces you to either close to use certain abilities or (the other way of looking at it) wait for your enemies to close to use certain abilities. That has always been true. The immobilizes are among those abilities.

Yeah not really. It's possible to play a completely ranged blaster if you choose to. That's always been true. For all of my blaster on live and HC they DO NOT close to melee. Ever. And they do just fine. It's really NOT required.

[Wavicle]

15 minutes ago, golstat2003 said:

Yeah not really. It's possible to play a completely ranged blaster if you choose to. That's always been true. For all of my blaster on live and HC they DO NOT close to melee. Ever. And they do just fine. It's really NOT required.

I didn’t say close to melee.

[Wavicle]

Glue Arrow doesn't have range of 80 either. The design of Tac Arrow was ALREADY that you had to close to use some of your abilities.

[Zepp]

5 hours ago, Chris24601 said:

Basically, nothing has been done to address it, and every attempt to find some way to get the problems addressed is shot down as unimportant. Forgive those of us who were very invested in a particular playstyle having it seriously disrupted being a little salty given that there’s been basically zero feedback from the devs on the issue and dismissive remarks from a relatively few but loud other posters (seriously... take a look at the likes and thanks on the “this is a problem” comments versus the “this is fine” comments... “this is fine” is loud, but aren’t getting nearly the agreement that “this is a problem” are getting.

I would prefer that the range stay at 80, but you adapt. You either oscillate or stay at the lowest max range. The devs want to promote mobile play rather than tower blasting. You may agree or disagree, feel free to voice your opinion, you have been heard. There is obviously some support for your opinion, but that doesn't mean you should be spamming about it. State your case, debate it if needs be, but obsessing and demanding is not helpful.

[Zepp]

2 hours ago, Chris24601 said:

First, the lack of a range counter makes that trickier than you intimate. Again, the issue is that unless you always open with the shorter range powers, you have to GUESS whether everything is in range or not before you start and if you're wrong... "DERP!" goes the 'not in range' sound effect as soon as you hit that part of your attack chain.

 

Second, you're basically telling a whole group of people "you're playing it wrong" because it doesn't personally affect you... while at least a dozen players in this thread alone have said it will wreck their play experience.

I was doing some more testing with PowExecLocation. I was wondering if allowing target to have a number (target:-60) is something that would be possible. That would allow people to teleport 60 in front of the target without guestimating, or using two jumps. As is, you can do /bind j PowExecLocation Target Combat Teleport , /bind k PowExecLocation 180:60 Combat Teleport to get in perfect range, but being able to do it in one jump would be a nice way to maintain range with on jump. Additionally, you could allow follow to have a range attached to it (so you tail your subject from range rather than chasing into melee.

[Blackfeather]

4 hours ago, Zepp said:

I was doing some more testing with PowExecLocation. I was wondering if allowing target to have a number (target:-60) is something that would be possible. That would allow people to teleport 60 in front of the target without guestimating, or using two jumps. As is, you can do /bind j PowExecLocation Target Combat Teleport , /bind k PowExecLocation 180:60 Combat Teleport to get in perfect range, but being able to do it in one jump would be a nice way to maintain range with on jump. Additionally, you could allow follow to have a range attached to it (so you tail your subject from range rather than chasing into melee.

As an aside, the option of including "distance" in the targeting reticle might be quite neat to have.

[Vanden]

A Range indicator in the Target window is something I've suggested in the past.

 

[Lockpick]

10 hours ago, Wavicle said:

Glue Arrow doesn't have range of 80 either. The design of Tac Arrow was ALREADY that you had to close to use some of your abilities.

Glue Arrow is not usually part of an attack chain either.  ENA is mandatory, but at least it had decent range and damage, so it fit into an attack chain of ENA, Snap Shot, Aimed Shot, repeat.  I've played it with the reduced range and while I certainly don't like it and it affects the character I am sure I will learn to live with it.  Or actually without it, since it now gives me an excuse to try out Archery / Devices.

[Moonlighter]

14 hours ago, Wavicle said:

Glue Arrow doesn't have range of 80 either. The design of Tac Arrow was ALREADY that you had to close to use some of your abilities.

 

Look, I know people want to defend the devs, and people want to step into to what they perceive as overreacting to every little change. I get that. I, for one, am appreciative of their hard work and the passion the devs have for keeping the game alive and healthy. Especially when they are putting out new content.

 

Having said that, I also believe their are some fairly simple rules to development that devs can and should follow. Even volunteer devs that are otherwise kicking butt.

 

Don't nerf, unless it is absolutely necessary for either the integrity of game play, or the integrity of the build meta. Just don't nerf things after players have had a chance to establish builds.

 

Don't nerf. (Unless necessary)

 

I get that Titan Weapons was an outlier. It messed up the build meta. The performance was was way off. Great.

I get that Bio Armor is way off. Every serious performance driven build now uses Bio Armor, and it has every defensive set perk the devs had previously dreamed of. I get that. I will understand when it gets looked at.

 

But don't casually nerf existing powers unless there is a very real reason to do so.

 

The reason people are aggravated is that there no justification for this nerf, and yet it feels bad enough to have a number of players complaining.

 

I mean, you are defending the nerf, but my question is this; are either of these Tactical Arrow attacks at the full range causing such a problem that gameplay is compromised or that the build meta of blasters will overwhelming move toward Tactical Arrow?

 

Honestly, is the extra range something you are seeing on live at the moment that is warping the build meta or making content less fun for other builds? I just don't see it, so this nerf feels bad but has no justification at all in the mind of players using those builds who have used Electrified Net Arrow to establish full range attack chains.

That's pretty much the issue; you are defending the nerf but I haven't seen any good argument that lowering the range will actually do anything to make the game better.

 

 

[Wavicle]

Yes, Tac Arrow needed a nerf, just exactly like TW.

[Wavicle]

There is no Blasters primary that needs a power from the secondary to form a complete ranged attack chain. None.

Edited November 16, 2020 by Wavicle

[Jacke]

24 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

Yes, Tac Arrow needed a nerf, just exactly like TW.

Tactical Arrow is the Blaster Secondary equivalent of Titan Weapons ?!?

 

More exactly, Tactical Arrow's powers' ranges are the equivalent of Titan Weapons' overstrong performace under i26 Momentum ?!?

 

Tactical Arrow is overpowered only because Electrified Net Arrow and Ice Arrow have a range of 80ft ?!?

 

Please support this position without saying the nerfed powerset is still playable because a powerset can be heavily nerfed and still playable, example Regeneration.  Or that a complete attack chain can be made without the Secondary's powers, because that's true of almost every reasonable build on all ATs, even with heavily nerfed powersets.

 

 

Edited November 16, 2020 by Jacke

[Moonlighter]

14 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

Yes, Tac Arrow needed a nerf, just exactly like TW.

The set got, not including the hold changes made to all blaster holds, *nine* nerfs including massive reductions to the recharge buff, as well as damage buff and to hit buff reductions. The argument could easily made that a reduction to Upshot and ESD Arrow was enough, coupled with the Hold changes all the blasters got.