Controversial Opinion of Population Decline

[golstat2003]

4 minutes ago, CrudeVileTerror said:

Follow-up question to my earlier ones:

Would anyone who doesn't personally want to experience the content I proposed begrudge anyone else who did?

No, but it'd need to come AFTER the things we've been asking for since COH returned.

[Ironblade]

1 hour ago, UltraAlt said:

I think you are being defensive because you feel it is an attack on how you play.

If you think power leveling is good for the game, then please post to explain why you think it is good for the game and helps player retention.

I'll answer that, as a person who doesn't power level.

I think it's good for the game and helps player retention because it's DIFFERENT.  It adds one more way to play the game.  People who want to get their character to 50 quickly can do so.

[Coyotedancer]

2 hours ago, UltraAlt said:

I think you are being defensive because you feel it is an attack on how you play.

If you think power leveling is good for the game, then please post to explain why you think it is good for the game and helps player retention.

You're making it more personal than it is. I do tend to short-cut my characters to the mid-30's, simply because after running through the low level game so many times I no longer find that part of it fun... But I level them normally from there.

 

As for why I may find that "good for the game"... I can only speak for myself. If I couldn't take that shortcut to 32? I just wouldn't make any more alts, and eventually I'd get bored of the characters I already have. Which would mean the end of my time playing. For me, that would be what "killed the game". 

 

 

Edited November 4, 2020 by Coyotedancer

[madicen]

Hmm, im a power leveler who has been here since day one. What does that make me? 

[Frunobulax]

13 hours ago, Solarverse said:

I would just to protest here and say that farming today is nowhere near as efficient as it was pre i5. Today is a joke compared to those days. Just saying.  😄

I seem to remember taking people to tf range before the sidekick stuff came in not being nearly as fast as what I can accomplish in ae with multiple accounts in this day and age

[blayzemaster]

IMO, the big thing that would get me back for longer would be some kind of content scaling. There's an awful lot of missions that I haven't done, but end up over-levelling while going through. Ouro is useful for that, but means that I'm then locked into that levelling chain - I can't then just pause it because an itrial I haven't done is forming or something similar. Equally, I don't love turning XP off, because a large part of my enjoyment is the progression of a character, and getting to a point where they do properly represent the concept behind them. 

[tidge]

Long-time player, first-time poster (in this thread). I'm writing just to document my personal thoughts.

 

1) I prefer the general 'do these missions to learn the Lore' arcs over the 'enforced Lore' arcs. This means that I'm easily bored by the 'conclude Praetoria' Incarnate content; repeating Incarnate content (and SSA) ultimately feels less like a comic book experience to me than picking up an Ouroborous mission or SF/TF and running with it.

 

2) I am currently taking the 'slow path' of leveling a Blue-side Controller: No XP boosts and joining TFs/SFs only at certain 'dead zones' of level-progression. No ToT leagues. No AE. Hoo-boy is this painful!  I'm a patient person, but I can see how this approach would not be for most people. I'm taking it slow because I'm trying out a couple of new power sets and want to see how it plays across all content without a lvl 50+ kit.

 

By contrast, I'm trying a slightly different combination of power sets used on other ATs but now combined on a different AT for which I've already played several to level 50+. That character is going to earn as much XP as fast as possible because I don't need to do as much exploration of power/slot choices because I've already explored most of them. The differences in this build will mostly be when the build is at a higher level and has made different slotting choices.

 

I wrote (1) because it should reveal that I'm not particularly bothered if a server can't trivially form a League to run Incarnate TFs.

 

I wrote (2) because it should reveal that I like having other people to play with, even if I mostly solo. I don't care if the folks I play with at low levels are exemplared down when I am low level. I prefer to take my lvl 50+characters through low level content, even if I didn't power-level past it.

[ShardWarrior]

14 hours ago, UltraAlt said:

If you think power leveling is good for the game, then please post to explain why you think it is good for the game and helps player retention.

If easy leveling is what a group of people want and it is keeping them here, then it is helping player retention.

Edited November 4, 2020 by ShardWarrior

[Solarverse]

6 hours ago, Frunobulax said:

I seem to remember taking people to tf range before the sidekick stuff came in not being nearly as fast as what I can accomplish in ae with multiple accounts in this day and age

Yeah, me and Bill Z Bubba had a convo about that and covered that, check it out.

[jubakumbi]

56 minutes ago, blayzemaster said:

IMO, the big thing that would get me back for longer would be some kind of content scaling. There's an awful lot of missions that I haven't done, but end up over-levelling while going through. Ouro is useful for that, but means that I'm then locked into that levelling chain - I can't then just pause it because an itrial I haven't done is forming or something similar. Equally, I don't love turning XP off, because a large part of my enjoyment is the progression of a character, and getting to a point where they do properly represent the concept behind them. 

Thunderspy has level scaling, so it can be done, although there are caveats, it works OK.

Many of the big MMOs, even WOW now, have done this.

I agree that some form of level scaling for all content is the best way to keep it fresh.

The difficulty settings did wonders for keep things relevent, some similar thing with level scaling would be awesome, IMO, to extend the life of current content.

 

IMO, the issue with doing some of these things is not, in fact, time, but the HC outlook of trying to 'be like live' to attract players.

Some of the changes, IMO, that could be made will, on the surface, may make a lot of 'old school' players hate the servers, as they are change averse, IME.

 

Since HC now owns the majority of the playerbase, it has to deal with the fact nothing that gets done will please everyone, just like every other MMO.

I agree the groundwork being done is nice, but content is king if you want the modern gamer to stick around very long, IME.

 

IMO, level scaling would really be a good move.

[roleki]

12 hours ago, UltraAlt said:

I think you are being defensive because you feel it is an attack on how you play.

If you think power leveling is good for the game, then please post to explain why you think it is good for the game and helps player retention.

Can't speak for anyone else, but in my case... see my signature.  Without the ability to PL my alts, I'm not here. 

 

If I'm not here, that's (estimating conservatively) about 70k pieces of salvage and 14500 recipes that aren't generated and dumped on the market, ~300 fewer Superpacks cracked and dispersed, and (again, estimating conservatively) about 1500 hours of leagues/teams that I'm not participating in or leading outside of AE, well over 10M healing that would have gone undelivered, ~2000 hours of leaning into Help/LFG/General, more than a handful of donation windows paid into...

 

Sure, these numbers are all infinitesimal specks when compared to the larger whole to which they contribute, but as the population dwindles, those little numbers aren't going to be quite as little.  And while it can't be quantified, based on in-game tells and Discord conversations, I've given multiple players proof that weird combos/tactics can yield spectacular results, and maybe inspired a Fire/FF controller or two along the way.

 

This is all just a bunch of words to say, farmers can and do play the same game as religious grinders, we just make fewer trips to the hospital along the way.  

[Solarverse]

1 hour ago, roleki said:

 we just make fewer trips to the hospital along the way.  

bragger...  😞

[Frunobulax]

6 hours ago, Solarverse said:

Yeah, me and Bill Z Bubba had a convo about that and covered that, check it out.

No you didn't, I'm talking about before mentor etc.

 

And anyways, my actual point was that it's always going to happen and it always has been happening. Whether or not I was plvl'ing my kids and friends as hard as was humanly possible doesn't even matter.  I started seeing ways to get exps faster then the intended paths within a few minutes of this games existence when it went live, and so did lots of other people and yet there was no massive drop off of players right away when people started to plvl.

 

You can't really stop it in a game like this without changing it into something else entirely. If mobs give xps, there will be some path of least resistance, and if you go the route of for instance granting exps through mission completion, then there will just be another path of least resistance which probably won't ever be stamped out either (example: DDO and the dungeon alerts that screwed newbies over far more then it stopped any zerger).

 

Maybe there is some magical answer but I doubt it's going to come from a tiny volunteer team when major studios have tried and failed for years to curtail such things.

[Solarverse]

Just now, Frunobulax said:

No you didn't, I'm talking about before mentor etc.

 

And anyways, my actual point was that it's always going to happen and it always has been happening. Whether or not I was plvl'ing my kids and friends as hard as was humanly possible doesn't even matter.  I started seeing ways to get exps faster then the intended paths within a few minutes of this games existence when it went live, and so did lots of other people and yet there was no massive drop off of players right away when people started to plvl.

 

You can't really stop it in a game like this without changing it into something else entirely. If mobs give xps, there will be some path of least resistance, and if you go the route of for instance granting exps through mission completion, then there will just be another path of least resistance which probably won't ever be stamped out either (example: DDO and the dungeon alerts that screwed newbies over far more then it stopped any zerger).

 

Maybe there is some magical answer but I doubt it's going to come from a tiny volunteer team when major studios have tried and failed for years to curtail such things.

Man...I can't talk to you when you have completely taken what I said and misinterpreted it. I suggest you read my edit in this post and get back with me. You are far too defensive for me to converse with right now until you realize where my view point is. Right now you are coming at me with the idea that I have some intentions on taking away power leveling...which even if I were, that would be a joke because I simply do not hold that kind of influence...if I hold any influence at all, which is highly doubtful.

[Frunobulax]

25 minutes ago, Solarverse said:

Man...I can't talk to you when you have completely taken what I said and misinterpreted it. I suggest you read my edit in this post and get back with me. You are far too defensive for me to converse with right now until you realize where my view point is. Right now you are coming at me with the idea that I have some intentions on taking away power leveling...which even if I were, that would be a joke because I simply do not hold that kind of influence...if I hold any influence at all, which is highly doubtful.

You've been the one misinterpreting what I've been posting, and now you're deflecting and projecting and hurling strawmen.

 

You straight up laughed at me while completely ignoring what I actually posted, and then went on to continue to babble about a period of time which I was clearly not discussing, and which was not central to my point anyways, which you completely sidestepped.

 

You are playing games and using me as a pretense to prop yourself up while not actually addressing my messages as I wrote them, and now you're doing something similar with more gaslighting in the mix, such as this post in which you accuse me of thinking you're going to take plvl somehow while quoting my post where I put forth the opinion that nobody could take it away if they tried.

 

 

You're right, we're done talking about this. Plvl'ing has always existed in this game and population has waxed and waned anyways despite your feelings on the matter, you can acknowledge reality or not, I don't care/won't see it.

Edited November 4, 2020 by Frunobulax

[Solarverse]

12 minutes ago, Frunobulax said:

You've been the one misinterpreting what I've been posting, and now you're deflecting and projecting and hurling strawmen.

 

You straight up laughed at me while completely ignoring what I actually posted, and then went on to continue to babble about a period of time which I was clearly not discussing, and which was not central to my point anyways, which you completely sidestepped.

 

You are playing games and using me as a pretense to prop yourself up while not actually addressing my messages as I wrote them, and now you're doing something similar with more gaslighting in the mix, such as this post in which you accuse me of thinking you're going to take plvl somehow while quoting my post where I put forth the opinion that nobody could take it away if they tried.

 

 

You're right, we're done talking about this. Plvl'ing has always existed in this game and population has waxed and waned anyways despite your feelings on the matter, you can acknowledge reality or not, I don't care/won't see it.

What? I never laughed at you. What are you going on about? You said...

I seem to remember taking people to tf range before the sidekick stuff came in not being nearly as fast as what I can accomplish in ae with multiple accounts in this day and age

 

To which I replied...

Yeah, me and Bill Z Bubba had a convo about that and covered that, check it out.

I was referring to this post and the conversation between Bill Z Bubba and I before this post...
 

Then you at some point said...

I seem to remember taking people to tf range before the sidekick stuff came in not being nearly as fast as what I can accomplish in ae with multiple accounts in this day and age

 

Which brings us back to square one. I am not sure how you see that as me laughing at you or not understanding or misinterpreting what you said. I answered and replied to your statement in which you indicate that I am unaware that perhaps it is true that today's PLing systems is faster than the old way, all things considered, taking in to account the double xp of today which we did not have then and taking in to account that it can be done without padding the team. So again, I am not sure what you are going on about. I think you need to relax a bit, man. I am not your enemy here.

[MTeague]

I do not powerlevel, will never powerlevel, and generally disable XP anytime I join a team.  It's important to me to control the pace at which my character level, and to feel like each character's journey is under my control.

 

That said. I have nothing against people who do choose to powerlevel.  I may look at you askanse from time to time, saying to myself, "okay you just powerlevel and powerslotted 73 toons.... what are you actually going to DO to enjoy the game when you run out of characters to PL?".  But it is your decision to powerlevel if that's your thing, not mine.  

 

I do not think any changes are needed "to save the game" or "to preserve the health of the game".  If some players prove to be flash-in-a-pan and gone, that's their choice.  Absolutely nobody is in any way beholden to take any single action to benefit someone else's enjoyment in this game. 

 

But I will say, if you can only enjoy this game if you have quick access to 8 man teams at the drop of a hat, I do wonder just how long this game will serve your wants.  I find it far easier to become satisfied with the game by focusing on my characters personas, backstories, making choices not on what proves most beneficial but on what FITS that character, etc.  I invent personalities for each character, I know which of my characters look up to which, which disdain which, which characters are Serious Business Heroes, and which are superpowered pranksters with a good heart.  By so doing, it doesn't MATTER to me if I solo or team at any given moment.  And so I'll enjoy this game for the duration. No matter how populated or not the server is.

[Healix]

I so agree with MTeague!   *wonders how he got into my mind*   I solo, I team, sometimes I feel like a nut and sometimes I don't. People should be able to play the way that they want....there is no right/wrong/good/bad way to play. I really dislike PVP, but am very glad it's in the game for people who do enjoy it.  I am so grateful to have the and and great community back.

[Hew]

I powerlevel (mishs, VERY rarely a farm for a few levels) by doing things like, uh, running team content. Praetorian content in the high levels, DA content. Apex/TM runs (I am on limited time budget and this scores me much needed merits, isalvage, emps, and chat), the standard Jenkins/TinaMac, do some red side, random TFs, monster slaying, ToT, you name it.

 

Id like to run more red content. I miss it. I ran red exclusively when CoV came out for YEARS, and finally gave up to go blue. Was a sad sad day. 

 

I like introducing content that players may not hit, like tips through the entire 20-50 range. New enemies, get to track evolution of people like Frostfire and that burninating lady with the books Flambeaux, the whole Tremor +Fusionette stuff, you name it. If I can run it in 30 or less, I will, and I will drag a team with me, no matter the level. People like it, and like seeing the variety of content I pull them into. 

 

I certainly have zero problems finding or making a team, 24x7. I play 2am EST, 7am EST, random times during work day for a few mins, evenings around 730-8pm.

 

I would think that if population was declining, this would not be the case.  YMMV as they say.

 

Maybe it is the content you run, or means by which you recruit teammates that drives you to think the population is dying off?

[UltraAlt]

14 hours ago, ShardWarrior said:

If easy leveling is what a group of people want and it is keeping them here, then it is helping player retention.

Okay. that can be said about anything.

 

If a group of people want to pick their nose and it's keeping them here, then it's helping player retentions.

 

It doesn't indicate why powerleveling would keep someone playing the game.

 

I do not believe power leveling increases the likelihood that someone will continue playing the game.

I think someone that comes into City of Heroes for the first time, goes directly to the AE to get power-leveled to 50 is less likely to play the game for the long run than someone that comes in makes a character levels up some levels, thinks it's cool to make another character, plays some more, makes more characters, and jumps back and forth between characters.

 

I also believe players are likely to continue playing longer if they have friends in game that they constantly play with whether or not they are in the same supergroup.

 

I also have the feeling that players that write bio's may me more likely to be continue playing over the long term than those that don't. No statistics to prove this, but I believe that the act of writing a bio shows more personal investment on the part of the player which would make them feel connected to the character(s) and likely to continue playing due to that connection.

 

Based on these factors, someone that is power-leveled from the get go is being power-leveled by strangers. I don't know if the power-levelers keep up with those that they power level or if they are just thrown to the wild to figure out the game by themselves (because basically they haven't learned the game as they were thrown past the actual game and into the Incarnate monstrosity). Also, someone that comes to the game to be powerlevel because they don't' want to bother leveling up is going to be far less invested in the character than someone that came to the game to create a character conception for they joy of playing that character conception.

 

All of this is debatable, and all of this is from my viewpoint versus those of others. I have no game statistics to backup up how powerleveling may decrease player longevity.

 

I do know that you can pick your friends and pick your nose, but you really shouldn't try to pick a friend's nose and I don't think trying to would be good for game retention other than for the people that want their noses picked by other people.

Edited November 5, 2020 by UltraAlt

[UltraAlt]

4 hours ago, Healix said:

I so agree with MTeague!   *wonders how he got into my mind*   I solo, I team, sometimes I feel like a nut and sometimes I don't. People should be able to play the way that they want....there is no right/wrong/good/bad way to play. I really dislike PVP, but am very glad it's in the game for people who do enjoy it.  I am so grateful to have the and and great community back.

 

I think that the OP's point was that they thought that power-leveling isn't good for player retention.

It isn't a matter of some people like doing it or not, and that they keep playing.

It think it is a sense that bypassing the game (what end-gamers might call the leveling part of the game, even though there is now leveling in the end-game) is detrimental to a many players likelihood of continuing playing CoH because it gives them instant gratification and instant gratification does not tend to be long lasting enjoyment.

 

It's pretty obvious that some people like to play Villains (or even Praetorians), powerlevel, farm, and PVP.

The questions being :: if a player is more involved in these actions more than playing the PVE game as a hero, does that mean that they are less likely to play over the long term.

The same question could be asked about soloing versus team game play or arc missions versus radio/newspaper missions.

 

I agree with the OP that I too believe that power-leveling is not in the best interest of player retention. I don't have documentation to back that up and admit to it.

 

I too am very grateful that THE CITY is back. I think that the Homecoming team has done an excellent job of handling the things that drove me away from playing THE CITY any longer nearly a year before the sunset. And, yeah, the microtransactions (above a subscriptions fee), power-leveling, farming, AE babies that didn't know how to get onto the train, flood of shouts for powerleveling and fire farms, and the incarnate system pretty much ruined my gaming experience.

Was it good for the people that liked those things? Sure.

Was it good for me? Not at all. It ruined my gaming experience.

 

But, when it comes down to it, getting the 2XP boosters is Powerleveling in its own right and I will admit to using 2XP boosters (primarily because a friend twisted my arm). I still have some characters that have never used a 2XP booster.

[UltraAlt]

12 hours ago, roleki said:

Can't speak for anyone else, but in my case... see my signature.  Without the ability to PL my alts, I'm not here. 

why is that?

 

I have over 60 characters. I don't powerlevel, and I'm still playing.

I don't understand why having multiple characters requires you to powerlevel.

12 hours ago, roleki said:

If I'm not here, that's (estimating conservatively) about 70k pieces of salvage and 14500 recipes that aren't generated and dumped on the market, ~300 fewer Superpacks cracked and dispersed, and (again, estimating conservatively) about 1500 hours of leagues/teams that I'm not participating in or leading outside of AE, well over 10M healing that would have gone undelivered, ~2000 hours of leaning into Help/LFG/General, more than a handful of donation windows paid into...

Okay. And the reason that you do all of that is entirely because of being able to powerlevel and/or farm.

 

I don't keep track of my marketing like you have. Conservatively, I would guess at this point that I have crafted and sold over 20k enhancements (I would say more likely to be well over 50k to be honest, but I don't keep track. I just churn the things out.) I sell other stuff, but I don't keep track. I too help people on the help channel and in looking for group. I haven't hit a donation window due to timing, but I am unsure how powerleveling relates donations.

 

None of these things show that power-leveling retains players. Donating show that you are more likely to continue playing but that is different than saying that people that power level are more likely to continue playing.

 

So I have no reason to read your post further as it is purely defensive.

[madicen]

10 minutes ago, UltraAlt said:

why is that?

 

I have over 60 characters. I don't powerlevel, and I'm still playing.

I don't understand why having multiple characters requires you to powerlevel.

Okay. And the reason that you do all of that is entirely because of being able to powerlevel and/or farm.

 

I don't keep track of my marketing like you have. Conservatively, I would guess at this point that I have crafted and sold over 20k enhancements (I would say more likely to be well over 50k to be honest, but I don't keep track. I just churn the things out.) I sell other stuff, but I don't keep track. I too help people on the help channel and in looking for group. I haven't hit a donation window due to timing, but I am unsure how powerleveling relates donations.

 

None of these things show that power-leveling retains players. Donating show that you are more likely to continue playing but that is different than saying that people that power level are more likely to continue playing.

 

So I have no reason to read your post further as it is purely defensive.

Powerleveling keeps THIS person here. That is player retention. Powerleveling keeps me here as well. It adds to MY enjoyment of the game. Its something I enjoy. It does not matter to me how others view what I enjoy in games. 

 

This argument is as pointless now as it was during live. What's the end goal? Remove XP from AE? With less and less people logging in each week you really think intentionally turning away people is a good idea? People will leave. Maybe people you could care less for, but the community will suffer as a result.

 

[Solarverse]

3 minutes ago, madicen said:

Powerleveling keeps THIS person here. That is player retention. Powerleveling keeps me here as well. It adds to MY enjoyment of the game. Its something I enjoy. It does not matter to me how others view what I enjoy in games. 

 

This argument is as pointless now as it was during live. What's the end goal? Remove XP from AE? With less and less people logging in each week you really think intentionally turning away people is a good idea? People will leave. Maybe people you could care less for, but the community will suffer as a result.

 

If you read my original post (and if you have read it, check out the edited version) then you will know exactly what my goal is. I have also mentioned my goal on page 2 or 3. However, people keep talking to me like I am trying to remove it, or trying to tell people they are wrong for doing it, or trying to control how others play or whatever. They keep projecting that on to me and then arguing with me over it when I never even said that crap. It's a strawman argument and I really can't stand strawman arguments. One poster on this thread was even ignored by me because they were making insinuations as to my goals and using strawman arguments, then they acted like it was me who was bashing them for me defending myself against their strawman arguments. It's absurd really.

The thing about strawman arguments is that other readers read those comments and then their views become coerced and then they start thinking the same thing. Anyway, check out my Edit in the OG post and then check out my response found here....then you will have a full understanding of what my goal in this thread is and then you can ignore any post that projects some evil plan to be rid of Power Leveling on me because you will know the truth, heh. Post below. Edit is on the Original Post.
 

 

[UltraAlt]

7 minutes ago, madicen said:

Powerleveling keeps THIS person here. That is player retention. Powerleveling keeps me here as well. It adds to MY enjoyment of the game. Its something I enjoy. It does not matter to me how others view what I enjoy in games. 

 

This argument is as pointless now as it was during live. What's the end goal? Remove XP from AE? With less and less people logging in each week you really think intentionally turning away people is a good idea? People will leave. Maybe people you could care less for, but the community will suffer as a result.

 

This is one person.

I understand that some stay that do power-level or farm.

 

The point is that it appears that the group of people that stay because of powerleveling in the game is below the number of people that don't stay because they were power-leveled.

 

The OP is talking about overall negative effect, and not about the people that stay that do power-level.

There is a difference between overall retention and individual retention.

 

I would say that far more people are retained because they love this game versus the ones that just come to check it out because it is F2P.

Where does that love stem from? I'm assuming it is because they love the superhero genre, but I'm sure that isn't the case for absolutely everyone.

 

I think the end-goal is to enjoy the game.

The end-goal of the OP is what is driving down player-retention from their view point.

What do you think that is?

You appear to see it going on as well.

 

In my view point, Power leveling is not good for player retention. Other people have their own viewpoints.

Even as number maybe dropping  (not sure where these are listed), the donations still seem to be coming in to support the game.