Controversial Opinion of Population Decline

[Patti]

Population also matters for social stuff.   But diversity is the most self-sustaining way to maintain a population so it stands to reason that the best way to keep the population up is more stuff and more varied stuff, rather than taking anything away.

[Giovanni Valia]

4 minutes ago, Frostbiter said:

The only thing I really have to contribute is that the population of this game does matter. It takes donations to keep this all going and without that the HC server would not be the project it is now. I don't really foresee any problems meeting those goals for a long time to come but maintaining interest for players is a necessary goal of any MMO.

FYI, Thunderspy server costs are just $160 a month. The servers can still be functional on low operating fees.

[Solarverse]

1 minute ago, EmmySky said:

and a bit more know-how than i have 😞  

Same here. That is way above my pay grade, lol.

[Solarverse]

Just now, Patti said:

Population also matters for social stuff.   But diversity is the most self-sustaining way to maintain a population so it stands to reason that the best way to keep the population up is more stuff and more varied stuff, rather than taking anything away.

I agree with this 100%. However, please understand (I keep repeating myself here but people seem to keep skipping those posts and are still not understanding) that I am not trying to take anything away from anybody...not now, not ever.

[Ruin Mage]

3 minutes ago, Giovanni Valia said:

Thunderspy server costs are just $160 a month. The servers can still be functional on low operating fees.

A server that operates with barely double digits is going to cost less, I imagine.

I mean, HC makes all its stuff quite transparent.

[Frostbiter]

2 minutes ago, Giovanni Valia said:

FYI, Thunderspy server costs are just $160 a month. The servers can still be functional on low operating fees.

HC is quite a bit more than a Thunderspy server but I assume scaling down would be done if the population warranted it. It just probably wouldn't be easy because nothing is ever simple. There's also the volunteer team to consider as well. Scaling back would mean far less being done with the game itself. That's when I see interest really starting to wane.

[Solarverse]

Just now, Shadeknight said:

A server that operates with barely double digits is going to cost less, I imagine.

I mean, HC makes all its stuff quite transparent.

I remember speaking with one of the Devs of WeHaveCake about a year ago I think...maybe not that long ago, my sense of time is horrible, however, if memory serves me correctly, he was saying that the cost of their server was dirt cheap...even less than 165 as mentioned above. I just remember how cheap exactly. However, I don't even want to consider that for as long as Homecoming is up and running. I have grown very fond of this server and the people in it. Including some of the Devs here.

[jubakumbi]

26 minutes ago, Glacier Peak said:

This is not really relevant to the discussion per say, but great job @Solarverse with keeping a good eye on the thread and getting in replies. Folks will disagree (like I have) with your opinion, but it is good to see you've shepherd your thread along and keep it on track. Tough topic, lots of opinions. And thank you volunteer Mods!

Cannot say the same.

I presented my opnion based on my observations and was attacked, causing clean-up to occur.

 

IMO, the game is not as fun when played on a personal server, they are easier to setup than you miught think, you just have to have enough HW to run it.

The City is not intended to be that desolate, even for a loner like me.

The worst thing that can happen is you download all the bits and it does not run, give it a try!

 

I am happy the population has been as stable and long-lasting as it has, it a safe place for a lot of gamers. I had hoped the population would have spread out more, but that does not seem to have happened to any large degree. 

 

To the specifc topic of the thread, IMO, no one playstyle, no one type of player, no specific sub-group of the CoH community is any more, or less, responsible for the ebb and flow of players and to try and even start to take that POV is a negative way to see it.

IMO, it's looking to draw lines and put people into little boxes, when there is simply no good reason to do so.

[Glacier Peak]

1 minute ago, jubakumbi said:

Cannot say the same.

I presented my opnion based on my observations and was attacked, causing clean-up to occur.

 

IMO, the game is not as fun when played on a personal server, they are easier to setup than you miught think, you just have to have enough HW to run it.

The City is not intended to be that desolate, even for a loner like me.

The worst thing that can happen is you download all the bits and it does not run, give it a try!

 

I am happy the population has been as stable and long-lasting as it has, it a safe place for a lot of gamers. I had hoped the population would have spread out more, but that does not seem to have happened to any large degree. 

 

To the specifc topic of the thread, IMO, no one playstyle, no one type of player, no specific sub-group of the CoH community is any more, or less, responsible for the ebb and flow of players and to try and even start to take that POV is a negative way to see it.

IMO, it's looking to draw lines and put people into little boxes, when there is simply no good reason to do so.

I actually went the personal server route before I went to Homecoming, partly due to a lack of awareness. I am much happier after the switch as well.

[macskull]

I think it was hit on earlier in the thread but... I'm pretty sure the lowering population numbers are due to the lack of new content (it was what, 6+ months between Page 5 release and I27 going to open beta?) and not so much the ease of leveling and building new characters. Hell, that second point is a plus to me and it's one of the biggest reasons I haven't seriously played on any of the other servers.

[Yomo Kimyata]

1.  It is clear to me that population on HC has dropped over the past year.  I could provide some numbers, but they are mostly anecdotal.

2.  This server, or its predecessor, survived for *7* years with very little change and with a static population.  I'd love to hear more about that from someone who was there.

3.  I adore this game on many levels, but there is no way I'm going to be playing it ten years from now.  Shoot, I quit the game before it went off subscription model.

 

So what?  Enjoy the game where and while you can enjoy it.  It's not going to disappear.  However, just like groups of young people in a big city (think Friends, sorry but it's probably most understandable), things are going to change.  People move to the 'burbs, get married, have kids, do other things.  You have no way of making any current player or new players stick around to do the things you want them to do when you want to do them.  So just enjoy the ride while it lasts!

 

I've likened managing HC to managing a series of dinner parties.  I'm glad to be invited, and I'll bring my specialty dishes when asked, but sooner of later, *unless new participants come in*, the dinner parties are eventually going to be less frequent and probably will eventually stop.  That's ok.

[Mezmera]

I think it's the limited amount of new stuff to do for the fully powered characters.  You can only run the same ol' TF's and Itrials so much until you start asking what's next?  What I was most looking forward to with the Going Rogue expansion was much more to do after you're fully powered.  People with alititis have their cake and that's fine but those that were looking for more to do at 50+ they only got a bite.  New stuff to do at high level benefits everyone because it's more content for alts.  For me I latch onto a few characters I like most and play those and I've watched the same cutscenes over and over so I've found other things for a while so I don't get burnt out on this.      

 

The lack of new stuff for quite a while and the disheartening thing I heard about a nerf to Energy doms when they were just revamped really had me just going to do other things.  I'm all for rebalancing things when they are made too good by mistake but some changes seem so ham handed and things have been tinkered with for so long without any input from those that have grown fond of the very things they are tinkering with.  I'd rather not play that game of constantly buffing/nerfing.  I'd so much rather have more challenging stuff to do with these supposedly OP characters.  

 

As for powerleveling being any culprit I doubt it.  I find the 1-30's mundane I've played them so much in the past, I PL to 30 and play from there.  It's a lot more fun to play with more toys and there's probably a lot that feel this way too.

Edited November 3, 2020 by Mezmera

[Darmian]

Content content content.

 

I am very much looking forward to Piecemeal's work (I, like others, am  not "spoiling" it for myself by doing it on the beta) and more of those please.  But I think that finding a way to port decent AE material into the game in specific instances is a step forward.  Yes, it may be the cable TV version of what you want but it would still be there in the game and with expansion of the AE tools cover the gamut of 1 to 50+.

And "real".  Because I know a lot of players who enjoy AE but for them it's still not really a part of the game, it "doesn't count", despite getting XP (however nerfed) and influence from it.

 

I have copious notes to myself on all this, I must brush them up and look at them, before throwing them here to be savaged LOL.

Edited November 4, 2020 by Darmian

[Yomo Kimyata]

My opinion re: content:

 

Let's be honest.  Complaining about doing the Hollows arc for the umpteenth time is structurally identical to complaining about running ITFs for the umpteenth time is structurally identical to complaining about running incarnate material for the umpteenth time.  You would not still be playing this game if you didn't find repetitive behavior of *some* type enjoyable.  Personally, I don't pay much attention to people who want to PL in order to skip the terrible content they have done a thousand times and then run a thousand ITFs.  To each their own.

 

This game is kind of like a really simple "choose your own story" book, and if you want to choose one aspect of it over and over again, that's cool.  And if someone else wants to choose a different aspect of it over and over again, that is also cool.  But even with brand new content, how many times are you going to be able to run it and keep it fresh?  Twice maybe?

 

Back in the day, I was unhappy with the introduction of both the AE and PvP.  Personally, I thought it was sloppy and it was a way to get players to pay the developers in order to create the players' own new content.  It's the same reason I quickly hated the tv show Lost, which had a great concept, but wrote its weekly scripts based on audience feedback rather than coming from the mind and pen of a dedicated story teller.  I was a little bit on a high horse about stuff like this back then, to be honest.  Nowadays, since this game is free (outside of occasional donations which are voluntary), I don't expect the devs to continuously surprise and delight me, and I take my enjoyment from the static version that is currently in play.  Any other changes are just gravy.  

 

Two more of my inf.

[RageusQuitus2]

8 hours ago, Solarverse said:

Well, keep in mind I do not believe it to be the only reason. I am just saying it is a large contributing factor. There is a reason that people are getting bored fast while others are not. That is just my observation as to why they are getting bored faster than people like me who prefer to play differently from them.

The first time i came back i leveled a toon to 50 the hard way.  Got accolades.  Then saw how much time it would take to io out and incarnate.  Total time maybe 3 months. Left. 

 

Next time i made a fire farmer.  Iod, incarnate accoladed.  Pld a few toons.  Made a couple more accounts.  Dipped back into pvp.  Did some end game.  Made a bunch of alts.  Farmed a ton.  Im logging on less and less but we are talking a year of regular playtime. 

 

Farming is boring but regular content wont fuel my alts.  

[Darmian]

41 minutes ago, Yomo Kimyata said:

Back in the day, I was unhappy with the introduction of both the AE and PvP.  Personally, I thought it was sloppy and it was a way to get players to pay the developers in order to create the players' own new content.  

 

Two more of my inf.

I won't bring PvP into this but how about now re AE? Aside from the Holy Mittens work last year and what's in the new beta, the AE is the only place you CAN get new content, whether that's a farm or an SFMA arc or some wacky thing I could never have imagined. I can't comment on your argument about it being a way to get the players to do whatever etc, because RL stuff had taken me away from the game before it dropped and I only got to use it when I came here.   But right now, right now my tiny bunch of AE testers slot in things for ourselves along with levelling, trying different ATs etc.  As of yesterday there were 2500 slots with no plays/zero stars. So we randomly pick one and look at it.  Or there were 165 1 star arcs.  Why did this only get 1 star?  Let's find out.  Oh dear god make it stop.  

 

If it wasn't for the simple fact that I really don't want to hurt anyone's feelings I would be so tempted to do a MST3K like set of reviews for the truly awful stuff we've looked at!

 

Anyway, I've wandered.

[Yomo Kimyata]

6 minutes ago, Darmian said:

 how about now re AE?

I want to be clear that my attitude then was why are the developers using the reality tv model?  Like I said, high horse.

 

I have zero issues with AE or PvP.  Given a choice I will play "real" content over AE, but sometimes you just want to smash thousands of minions in a riskless manner, and AE is great for that.  There are probably some great stories too, but if I read the text once then it's old content to me.  A niche aspect of AE that I use on another server is that AE tickets are the best way to get specific salvage and sometimes recipes if the AH on that server is, um, sparse.

[Darmian]

8 minutes ago, Yomo Kimyata said:

I want to be clear that my attitude then was why are the developers using the reality tv model?  Like I said, high horse.

 

I have zero issues with AE or PvP.  Given a choice I will play "real" content over AE, but sometimes you just want to smash thousands of minions in a riskless manner, and AE is great for that.  There are probably some great stories too, but if I read the text once then it's old content to me.  A niche aspect of AE that I use on another server is that AE tickets are the best way to get specific salvage and sometimes recipes if the AH on that server is, um, sparse.

Fair points all I reckon.  And the reality tv analog is probably apt in many ways. As for story becoming old content?  Well, true for all the content really that is played for story.  I think right now, in the volunteer economy we have if they could get the training wheels off the AE then it might (I emphasize might) produce decent replayable content.  Or as decently replayable as any number of Posis or Mantis at the very least!

 

And I honestly don't know if this would address population decline but (famous last words!) it could hardly make it worse, could it?

Edited November 4, 2020 by Darmian

[CrudeVileTerror]

I haven't deep-dived on this topic yet, but seeing where things are circling at this moment on this latest page . . . 

I sense an opportunity to pose a question for the lot of you that's been on my mind for over a decade!

 

Would the development of new forms of gameplay be something you would appreciate, be indifferent to, or feel negatively toward?

Let's say . . . the addition of City Sim gameplay, such as buying property, starting businesses (or magical cults), and hiring and managing staff (cultists)?

Or perhaps a civilian gameplay mode?

The sort of things which lean in to the "City" part of the title, rather than the "Hero/Villain" part.

 

I mean, I'm quite certain some of you would immediately baulk at this, but overall . . . assuming it doesn't take away any development time or energy from the existing Devs and an entirely new team worked in tandem to provide it.

 

Or, hell!   Any other types of varied gameplay.  Whether it be choose your own adventure stuff.  Dating sims.  Platforming.  Puzzle gameplay.

Would you be alright with that?  Would you be happy if we expanded the fundamental types of gameplay available in City of Heroes/Villains?

[Darmian]

9 minutes ago, CrudeVileTerror said:

I haven't deep-dived on this topic yet, but seeing where things are circling at this moment on this latest page . . . 

I sense an opportunity to pose a question for the lot of you that's been on my mind for over a decade!

 

Would the development of new forms of gameplay be something you would appreciate, be indifferent to, or feel negatively toward?

Let's say . . . the addition of City Sim gameplay, such as buying property, starting businesses (or magical cults), and hiring and managing staff (cultists)?

Or perhaps a civilian gameplay mode?

The sort of things which lean in to the "City" part of the title, rather than the "Hero/Villain" part.

 

I mean, I'm quite certain some of you would immediately baulk at this, but overall . . . assuming it doesn't take away any development time or energy from the existing Devs and an entirely new team worked in tandem to provide it.

 

Or, hell!   Any other types of varied gameplay.  Whether it be choose your own adventure stuff.  Dating sims.  Platforming.  Puzzle gameplay.

Would you be alright with that?  Would you be happy if we expanded the fundamental types of gameplay available in City of Heroes/Villains?

I'm never happy, you should know that by now.

[Darmian]

Oh sweet goobus. Being able to play the PPD and responding to a zone event and telling the heroes to back off because of jurisdiction.  LOL.  

[Solarverse]

37 minutes ago, CrudeVileTerror said:

I haven't deep-dived on this topic yet, but seeing where things are circling at this moment on this latest page . . . 

I sense an opportunity to pose a question for the lot of you that's been on my mind for over a decade!

 

Would the development of new forms of gameplay be something you would appreciate, be indifferent to, or feel negatively toward?

Let's say . . . the addition of City Sim gameplay, such as buying property, starting businesses (or magical cults), and hiring and managing staff (cultists)?

Or perhaps a civilian gameplay mode?

The sort of things which lean in to the "City" part of the title, rather than the "Hero/Villain" part.

 

I mean, I'm quite certain some of you would immediately baulk at this, but overall . . . assuming it doesn't take away any development time or energy from the existing Devs and an entirely new team worked in tandem to provide it.

 

Or, hell!   Any other types of varied gameplay.  Whether it be choose your own adventure stuff.  Dating sims.  Platforming.  Puzzle gameplay.

Would you be alright with that?  Would you be happy if we expanded the fundamental types of gameplay available in City of Heroes/Villains?

Honestly, I think that would be bad ass and a one of a kind. I don't think that any other game has tried that.

[UltraAlt]

10 hours ago, Coyotedancer said:

The tone of the entire opening post is essentially "I think you're playing in a bad way and you should feel bad for doing it because you're killing the game".

I think you are being defensive because you feel it is an attack on how you play.

If you think power leveling is good for the game, then please post to explain why you think it is good for the game and helps player retention.

[Troo]

interesting

[CrudeVileTerror]

Follow-up question to my earlier ones:

Would anyone who doesn't personally want to experience the content I proposed begrudge anyone else who did?