Make MM upgrades permanent

[xl8]

Rather than having to upgrade pets every time they're summoned, just have the empowerment be a permanent selection from the primary pool. Keep it level dependent, so your level 15 exemped pets don't have access to lv32 upgrades.

The current state of play puts MMs at a significant disadvantage with time consuming buffs. You're at the entrance only just on to your secondary buffs, while everyone else is halfway through the map.

Time's have changed, let's have MMs catch up.

[Dragon Crush]

Forget which one but think one of the other servers made it so the training powers became auto-powers for the MM that pulsed every few seconds upgrading nearby pets, so at the very least we know something like that could be done.

That said, I don't mind it being something you cast too much since they made it area rather than single target, but maybe they could drastically reduce the end costs. Something like 5.5 end base vs the current 22.75

[golstat2003]

22 minutes ago, Dragon Crush said:

Forget which one but think one of the other servers made it so the training powers became auto-powers for the MM that pulsed every few seconds upgrading nearby pets, so at the very least we know something like that could be done.

That said, I don't mind it being something you cast too much since they made it area rather than single target, but maybe they could drastically reduce the end costs. Something like 5.5 end base vs the current 22.75

I'd be down with with this. It would make me play mms more. Between now and live I've only ever had 3 mms in my COH playtime. Sadge, as the kids say.

[Galaxy Brain]

I'd honestly opt for the auto power version unless there was reason to use the Upgrades more than when you resummon.

[Snowdaze]

Alternate argument: Let MM's buff/upgrade each others pets... What we really want/need is Lions with photon grenades, and Lichs with rocket launchers!

Edited December 10, 2020 by Snowdaze
this post was created for humor value

[Greycat]

1 hour ago, xl8 said:

The current state of play puts MMs at a significant disadvantage with time consuming buffs.

 

I'm ... confused with calling the buffs time consuming. It takes longer to *summon* the pets than to buff them all. You hit two buttons once and they're fully upgraded. It's pretty quick.

[xl8]

15 minutes ago, Greycat said:

I'm ... confused with calling the buffs time consuming. It takes longer to *summon* the pets than to buff them all. You hit two buttons once and they're fully upgraded. It's pretty quick.

It's a delay and it slows you down significantly when you're doing it on a difficult mission with multiple resummons.

The worst part is when you lose 1 hench pet and have to resummon and upgrade twice. Meanwhile you're dead, your other pets are taking significant damage, and/or team has moved on.

[Doc_Scorpion]

3 hours ago, Greycat said:

I'm ... confused with calling the buffs time consuming. It takes longer to *summon* the pets than to buff them all. You hit two buttons once and they're fully upgraded. It's pretty quick.

I'm confused too...  Especially with the "I'm still at the mish door buffing" comment.  I summon and buff when I log in...  Why wait until you're in a mish?  You stopped having to do that in an Issue back in the low teens (IIRC) when summoned pets became permanent.
 

2 hours ago, xl8 said:

The worst part is when you lose 1 hench pet and have to resummon and upgrade twice. Meanwhile you're dead, your other pets are taking significant damage

Unless it's your tier 2 or 3 pet...  Why are you resummoning and buffing rather than managing your other pets?  And even when it's your tier 2 or 3, it's not always tactically intelligent to be summoning and buffing instead of managing your other pets.  (And sometimes the better tactical choice is to summon and send them into the fight unbuffed entirely.)

Effectively playing an MM is hard and there's a punishingly steep learning curve, especially with some of the more fragile pets (or less useful secondaries).
 

2 hours ago, xl8 said:

It's a delay and it slows you down significantly when you're doing it on a difficult mission with multiple resummons.

By design, Nuke grade powers have lengthy recharges - regardless of the AT.  (MM's aren't any different from any other AT in that respect.)  And your fully upgraded tier 2 pets are awfully close to Nuke grade, and your fully upgraded tier 3 is most definitely Nuke grade.  It's the price you pay for the power you command.

Edited December 10, 2020 by Doc_Scorpion

[Vanden]

I'm wary of this idea. The time and endurance spent summoning and upgrading pets is really the only cost MMs have to their damage output, whereas every other AT has to spend the endurance and animation time every single time they attack.

[Greycat]

1 hour ago, xl8 said:

It's a delay and it slows you down significantly when you're doing it on a difficult mission with multiple resummons.

The worst part is when you lose 1 hench pet and have to resummon and upgrade twice. Meanwhile you're dead, your other pets are taking significant damage, and/or team has moved on.

... don't resummon that often? And if you're dead and your team has moved on, there are bigger problems than resummoning a pet. (Besides, if you're dead, your other pets are not taking damage - they die when you do. There may be an exception - I don't recall if Necro's ghost hangs around or not - but your T1, T2, and T3 pets die.)

 

And to test - fired up a MM. Took 9 seconds from no pets to all pets - you don't have to wait for the animation to finish, after all. To buff? ~4 seconds. (Again, you don't have to wait for the animation to finish before hitting the next buff and starting to move.)

 

So here's what you do:

- Other than low levels, don't worry about your T1s. Past... oh, 20, they're cannon fodder anyway. Don't resummon T1s every time one dies. The only time to worry about one dying is with Necro, and that's just to summon the ghost.

- Worried about not keeping up with the team? Stay with them. Keep them buffed. Summon and buff your pets as you go.

- Don't wait for animation times to finish. You don't need to.

 

[TygerDarkstorm]

2 hours ago, Doc_Scorpion said:

I'm confused too...  Especially with the "I'm still at the mish door buffing" comment.  I summon and buff when I log in...  Why wait until you're in a mish?  You stopped having to do that in an Issue back in the low teens (IIRC) when summoned pets became permanent.
 

I agree with all of your points, but unless you're going to be soloing or whatever, the second you join a team where the level changes, your pets die and you have to resummon them. So, if you know you're going to be teaming and that it won't be at your current level, then it's not that wise to summon and buff them upon login. And if your secondary powerset also has buffs, those don't follow your pets into missions, requiring them to be rebuffed in the mission door (pets may be "permanent" now, but they still technically die and resummon upon entering a mission).

[Doc_Scorpion]

2 minutes ago, TygerDarkstorm said:

I agree with all of your points, but unless you're going to be soloing or whatever, the second you join a team where the level changes, your pets die and you have to resummon them. So, if you know you're going to be teaming and that it won't be at your current level, then it's not that wise to summon and buff them upon login.

True.  But even so, that's only when you join (or leave) the team.  Unless you're re-teaming every mission - that's a once-and-done (at least for a while) thing.  Certainly not enough to justify perma, a radical change in the AT's design.  (And one that's almost certainly going to require a balancing nerf somewhere, lest MM's grow OP.)

I'm in the habit of summoning-and-buffing when I login...  I never know if I'm going to team, or streetsweep a little while watching the LFG channel, or what.
 

3 minutes ago, TygerDarkstorm said:

And if your secondary powerset also has buffs, those don't follow your pets into missions, requiring them to be rebuffed in the mission door (pets may be "permanent" now, but they still technically die and resummon upon entering a mission).

Also true.  But buffing them takes...  seconds?  Considerably Less than a minute certainly.  Again, not that big a deal.  If the team really is halfway across the map (not likely, more likely OP is significantly exaggerating), then it's unclear how much the MM would be contributing in the first place.  (Though I certainly understand the desire!  It's frustrating to not contribute.)  If I'm on a steamroller team, I usually content myself with just the highest tier pet I have available and concentrate on buffing the team (mostly to make myself feel useful).
 

[xl8]

It's easier

2 hours ago, Doc_Scorpion said:

I'm confused too...  Especially with the "I'm still at the mish door buffing" comment.  I summon and buff when I log in...  Why wait until you're in a mish?  You stopped having to do that in an Issue back in the low teens (IIRC) when summoned pets became permanent

Maybe you're unfamiliar with how buffs are stripped from pets between missions? Only empowerments remain. So why not make them perma?

3 hours ago, Doc_Scorpion said:

Why are you resummoning and buffing rather than managing your other pets? 

This is in between fights, or if I'm soloing and the other pets are capably holding their own, I'll resummmon. FYI most sets have a specialist T1 that is great bonus to every tier pet.

 

3 hours ago, Doc_Scorpion said:

And your fully upgraded tier 2 pets are awfully close to Nuke grade, and your fully upgraded tier 3 is most definitely Nuke grade.  It's the price you pay for the power you command.

This is a redundant point. MM's can't shave down arcana time and their T9 i still on a long rch if killed. Sentinels can get a 24 sec rch T9 and other ATs can shave there's down to ~40secs with rch and even less with FF +rch.

 

30 minutes ago, Doc_Scorpion said:

If I'm on a steamroller team

That's a personal experience. That's why it's okay for people to have a difference of opinion.

[TygerDarkstorm]

2 hours ago, Doc_Scorpion said:

True.  But even so, that's only when you join (or leave) the team.  Unless you're re-teaming every mission - that's a once-and-done (at least for a while) thing.  Certainly not enough to justify perma, a radical change in the AT's design.  (And one that's almost certainly going to require a balancing nerf somewhere, lest MM's grow OP.)

I'm in the habit of summoning-and-buffing when I login...  I never know if I'm going to team, or streetsweep a little while watching the LFG channel, or what.
 

Also true.  But buffing them takes...  seconds?  Considerably Less than a minute certainly.  Again, not that big a deal.  If the team really is halfway across the map (not likely, more likely OP is significantly exaggerating), then it's unclear how much the MM would be contributing in the first place.  (Though I certainly understand the desire!  It's frustrating to not contribute.)  If I'm on a steamroller team, I usually content myself with just the highest tier pet I have available and concentrate on buffing the team (mostly to make myself feel useful).
 

I totally understand where you're coming from, and pretty much agree. MM's are my favorite AT and I do everything but PvP with them. I'm not sure I would advocate for the kind of sweeping change the OP is advocating for. Mostly I'd just like if there was less of an endurance penalty for having to resummon/recast the empowerment buffs, and maybe seeing pet levels be able to shift better in regards to doing 50+ content, but otherwise I'm pretty content with the way the AT plays. 

 

Like you have pointed out, it's not really necessary to be resummoning pets constantly, especially the T1's. I frequently go battle to battle with pets missing if the team is rolling pretty good and it's more important I be there buffing/debuffing rather than stopping to have to resummon and rebuff between fights.

[MTeague]

I guess I still remember CoV launch having to separately target and buff Every Stupid Henchman individually.

What we have now is So Much better than that, that I barely notice the casting of two buffs.

[krj12]

I think the auto upgrade would be a nice feature.  Definitely would make it less of a pain.

 

However, what I think would be nicer would be to convert them into some kind of toggle, like dual pistols have - where

your pets get some kind of different bonus based on which toggle is selected.

 

[Monos King]

This one is a net positive unless you want to have certain pets avoid gaining certain abilities. It would be the removal of choice in those instances, which is troubling. I've played on the server where this exact proposal is already installed, and it's very convenient, but it was terribly frustrating when I wanted a demon to not draw aggro or a pet to not flamethrow, or a knight to have broadsword instead of TW (they have knights). 

 

The toggle idea is the best way to deal with it really. Whether or not it would cost endurance I dunno.

[chi1701]

42 minutes ago, krj12 said:

I think the auto upgrade would be a nice feature.  Definitely would make it less of a pain.

 

However, what I think would be nicer would be to convert them into some kind of toggle, like dual pistols have - where

your pets get some kind of different bonus based on which toggle is selected.

 

This and a charge based system for summoning, more pets you need to summon, the longer the recharge, the less pets, the less recharge. And less endurance based on number of pets summoned as well

Edited December 11, 2020 by chi1701

[Galaxy Brain]

9 hours ago, Monos King said:

This one is a net positive unless you want to have certain pets avoid gaining certain abilities. It would be the removal of choice in those instances, which is troubling. I've played on the server where this exact proposal is already installed, and it's very convenient, but it was terribly frustrating when I wanted a demon to not draw aggro or a pet to not flamethrow, or a knight to have broadsword instead of TW (they have knights). 

 

The toggle idea is the best way to deal with it really. Whether or not it would cost endurance I dunno.

Ideally, we'd make the upgrades all useful too instead of detrimental lol

[Dragon Crush]

13 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

Ideally, we'd make the upgrades all useful too instead of detrimental lol

Now that's just crazy talk.

[Galaxy Brain]

2 minutes ago, Dragon Crush said:

Now that's just crazy talk.

@Monos Kingand I are cray cray

[Monos King]

27 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

Ideally, we'd make the upgrades all useful too instead of detrimental lol

Oh yeah. But what if I want my pets to be deliberately lacking for something too. Like, demons auras are great for instance, but if I need them to not draw aggro or stealth through something, I need them to not have that upgrade that gives it. Heals are good too, but if I want ember to just focus on attacking, I might skip that, or if I don't want enemies to scatter from damage patches like fire and caltrops even though those are good, etc etc. I just think the choice needs to be retained in some way for situations like those. 

[Dragon Crush]

What'd be great (and likely not feasible unfortunately) Would be a window with check boxes for the pet powers, so then you can remove 1 or 2 powers from the pet's rotation without sacrificing other parts of the upgrade. Though kinda get the feeling that some people will try removing all but 1-2 high DPA attacks and breaking the chain so maybe there would need to be a minimum number of allowed powers.

[golstat2003]

1 hour ago, Dragon Crush said:

What'd be great (and likely not feasible unfortunately) Would be a window with check boxes for the pet powers, so then you can remove 1 or 2 powers from the pet's rotation without sacrificing other parts of the upgrade. Though kinda get the feeling that some people will try removing all but 1-2 high DPA attacks and breaking the chain so maybe there would need to be a minimum number of allowed powers.

As much as I'd like this I can imagine how much of a nightmare this would be to code. Based on past discussions with the live devs and HC devs here on these forums, that code related to pet mms is not straightforward at all. I seem to recall they had a hell of a time working on melee vs no melee for mm pets. 

[xl8]

14 hours ago, Monos King said:

I've played on the server where this exact proposal is already installed, and it's very convenient, but it was terribly frustrating when I wanted a demon to not draw aggro or a pet to not flamethrow, or a knight to have broadsword instead of TW (they have knights). 

You can get around this with commands.

 

I don't think MMs should have the endurance problem they do currently and the argument that pets don't need to be resummoned is obviously false. Solo an AV and find out the hard way.

 

Toggles... I don't see the need apart from the draw aggro scenario, in which case dismiss or use, stay/go to. Just to clarify, I welcome more to do in terms of control and player dexterity, but not when it's a mindless chore.