taunt All Scrappers must have Taunt Auras

[Purrfekshawn]

l think all Scrapper Secondary Powersets must have one power that generate Taunt at surrounding enemies. Because they are listed in character creation screen as those who can "Tank", along with Tankers, Brutes, Peacebringers, Warshades, and what is the tank w/out Taunt Aura?

 

Right now because of demented AI programming enemies (AV included) begin to marathonn away across the map like tiny, little, scared to death chicklings. That means Scrapper with Shield Secondary (has Taunt Aura) can stop that nonsense, while with Super Reflexes for comparison (has no Taunt Aura) cannot. Primary Powerset Taunts are gimpish because they are single-target only, and after a while the Taunt wears off, so a reapplication of that is required, which means loss DPS and they require to spend Power Point specifically to. Why some Secondaries must be better than other EVEN in regards of basic combat mechanic that the Taunt is? Thus let all Scrappers taunt everything around them, anyway Tankers & Brutes have bigger Threat values and will outaggro them.

 

[FrauleinMental]

DPS is their Taunt.  That's why scrapperlock is a thing.

[Vanden]

46 minutes ago, Purrfekshawn said:

Because they are listed in character creation screen as those who can "Tank"

They sure aren't, only Tankers, Brutes, and Kheldians show up on that list.

[Purrfekshawn]

33 minutes ago, FrauleinMental said:

DPS is their Taunt.  That's why scrapperlock is a thing.

But will it prevent Archvillain from Headless Chickenning away? l somehow doubt it will, need to apply exact Taunt status.

[Greycat]

Counterproposal:

Scrappers should have Fear auras. They're walking love children of Ginsu knives, Slap Chop and Cuisenarts. It makes sense that enemies would want to run away from that.

 

 

[Moka]

Where does it say scrappers can tank? They can take a hit, for sure, but...

[Purrfekshawn]

26 minutes ago, Greycat said:

Counterproposal:

Scrappers should have Fear auras. They're walking love children of Ginsu knives, Slap Chop and Cuisenarts. It makes sense that enemies would want to run away from that.

Then good luck playing the game when you'll be melee and everything will cluck away from you. l don't think someone else will play that.

 

[Greycat]

So, issue - as pointed out - with your premise.

"Because they are listed in character creation screen as those who can "Tank", along with Tankers, Brutes, Peacebringers, Warshades, and what is the tank w/out Taunt Aura?"

 

This is what's shown for the "Tank" role. No archetypes at all are listed. However, the description lists "soaking damage." Which is not a Scrapper's job. They *can,* sure, since they're made for melee, and I've seen some decent Scrappers tank, but - not their job.

 

Hit next,

 

Four ATs. Tanker, PB, WS, Brute.

 

Not sure where you're seeing "Scrapper" here.  Your list doesn't even fit if you pick "Melee" (the next one down) accidentally, as neither Kheld is listed. The Arachnos soldier and widow is.

 

So, if your argument is "Scrappers need a taunt aura because they're listed under the tank role in the selection screen," they aren't.

 

Edit: I should also point out Peacebringers and Warshades* do not have a taunt aura, and they *are* listed under that.

 

*Warshades do get Orbiting Debt, but only in human form, where most tanking is done in Dwarf.

Edited December 30, 2020 by Greycat

[Alchemystic]

if scrapper had a taunt aura, then why bother playing a brute?

[Ruin Mage]

Calling it now: "On my server they're under Tank."

[AerialAssault]

If some guy just turned five of my friends into a meat smoothie with one swing of their claws, you can guarantee i'm going to high tail it the hell outta there.

 

[Parabola]

I certainly think it's worth considering giving scrappers taunt auras on all the armour sets. They have to exist in an ecosystem with brutes and stalkers (and even the new more damaging tanks) and I find myself struggling to roll a concept as a scrapper these days. Only one armour set gives me a compelling reason to use scrapper and that's shield, with its pseudopet telenuke, +dam aura and of course taunt. Everything else just seems better as one of the other AT's and that's a bit sad. Chasing runners isn't the only consideration in this but it's certainly a factor.

[Parabola]

14 minutes ago, Tyrannical said:

if scrapper had a taunt aura, then why bother playing a brute?

Higher hp, higher res cap, stronger taunt auras (mag 4 vs 3), and they can often output higher consistent damage?

[Alchemystic]

1 hour ago, parabola said:

Higher hp, higher res cap, stronger taunt auras (mag 4 vs 3), and they can often output higher consistent damage?

Which then makes the idea of Scrappers getting taunt aura redundant.

 

 

[Darkneblade]

What is next? Higher hp cap for blasters? Oh wait we already have that didn't we?

Jokes aside I can imagine this working for dark armor on all AT's except Stalkers maybe. But something like ninjutsu?  Not so much.

[Apparition]

Captain Powerhouse has specifically stated a couple of times over the past two years that he believes any Scrapper armor set having a taunt aura was a mistake and that any new Scrapper armor set will not have a taunt aura.  So the chances of this happening are exactly zero.

[Razor Cure]

1 hour ago, Apparition said:

Captain Powerhouse has specifically stated a couple of times over the past two years that he believes any Scrapper armor set having a taunt aura was a mistake and that any new Scrapper armor set will not have a taunt aura.  So the chances of this happening are exactly zero.

But wasn't rad Armour 'new'? I dont recall it being on Test at the time of the SHutdown (unlike Bio).

Also, scrapper sets NOT having a taunt aura would make powers like Invincibility and RttC way less effective, not to mention other sets WANTING baddies close, like Fire Armour or DA, or even Energy Aura.

1 hour ago, Apparition said:

So the chances of this happening are exactly zero.

Which is pretty stupid. To just flat out say it will never happen, even in the case of a new powerset that needs/requires/makes sense to have a taunt aura.

[Haijinx]

3 hours ago, Greycat said:

So, issue - as pointed out - with your premise.

"Because they are listed in character creation screen as those who can "Tank", along with Tankers, Brutes, Peacebringers, Warshades, and what is the tank w/out Taunt Aura?"

 

This is what's shown for the "Tank" role. No archetypes at all are listed. However, the description lists "soaking damage." Which is not a Scrapper's job. They *can,* sure, since they're made for melee, and I've seen some decent Scrappers tank, but - not their job.

 

Hit next,

 

Four ATs. Tanker, PB, WS, Brute.

 

Not sure where you're seeing "Scrapper" here.  Your list doesn't even fit if you pick "Melee" (the next one down) accidentally, as neither Kheld is listed. The Arachnos soldier and widow is.

 

So, if your argument is "Scrappers need a taunt aura because they're listed under the tank role in the selection screen," they aren't.

 

Edit: I should also point out Peacebringers and Warshades* do not have a taunt aura, and they *are* listed under that.

 

*Warshades do get Orbiting Debt, but only in human form, where most tanking is done in Dwarf.

Kheld Dwarf Form should have a Taunt Aura built in

[Haijinx]

2 hours ago, Apparition said:

Captain Powerhouse has specifically stated a couple of times over the past two years that he believes any Scrapper armor set having a taunt aura was a mistake and that any new Scrapper armor set will not have a taunt aura.  So the chances of this happening are exactly zero.

This.

 

Luckily he didn't want to go so far as remove the ones that exist.  So if you want to have a taunt aura on a Scrapper play one of the sets that get them.  There's several good choices. 

[Parabola]

8 hours ago, Tyrannical said:

Which then makes the idea of Scrappers getting taunt aura redundant.

 

 

Sorry I'm not following your reasoning here. In my opinion scrappers are struggling a little in their niche sandwiched between brutes and stalkers. Brutes are far tougher, generally easier to use and often don't do noticeably less damage. Stalkers have a whole different feel but are in a very good place due to their very strong ato's. It feels to me like scrappers are crowded out a little in this, taunt auras aren't the only consideration but they would help.

 

8 hours ago, Apparition said:

Captain Powerhouse has specifically stated a couple of times over the past two years that he believes any Scrapper armor set having a taunt aura was a mistake and that any new Scrapper armor set will not have a taunt aura.  So the chances of this happening are exactly zero.

And I think this is a shame. I agree with Cap P on much of what he says about game balance etc, but on this I'm not convinced. Chasing runners is simply not fun and many melee sets don't have any ranged options other than provoke which is an unpopular power for a good reason.

 

Maybe they could add psi damage to provoke so we could use it to insult running enemies to death (not an entirely serious suggestion but it would be funny).

[Grindingsucks]

I don't mind that they don't have a taunt aura.  I don't mind chasing mobs down. But, then, I'm one of the few that doesn't gripe about ranged characters using knockback, either.

 

I think Scrappers compare quite favorably to Stalkers (I enjoy both AT's and feel they are relatively well balanced with one another).  I do feel Brutes are too good compared to Scrappers, though.  If you want more balanced melee AT's, I think Brutes ought to have resists lowered to that of Arachnos Soldiers, or perhaps raise Scrappers resists to that of Arachnos Soldiers.

 

I think Tankers are fine for what they are created to do, it's just that the current power levels of the game make them relatively unnecessary in end-game content, since blasters and the like can destroy mobs before there's ever really much need to herd them.  That's not a problem with the Tanker, itself, though.

 

Brutes are the class that feel the most overpowered of the Melee sets to me.  They can get damage comparable to Scrappers when Rage is full, and resists and hp's pretty close to Tankers.  There is a reason Brutes are the most played class in the game and while, yes- a large part of that reason is that they make good farmers- it's not the only reason.  They're a very powerful melee AT, in their own right.

 

All of the above is just my personal feelings on the matter, of course.  Your own opinions and mileage may vary.  😉

 

 

[Alchemystic]

3 hours ago, parabola said:

Sorry I'm not following your reasoning here. In my opinion scrappers are struggling a little in their niche sandwiched between brutes and stalkers.

Exactly, so why push them towards a role that would only cause them to struggle more? You said yourself that Brutes have a higher health and res/def cap, so they're made to handle the aggro,  whereas Scrappers are not.

 

Giving Scrappers Taunt auras only creates more problems than it solves. As for their 'niche', they do more damage than Brutes, but have less protection, if you were to give them Taunt auras then the latter would have to be adjusted, and at that point you just invalidate Brutes entirely.

[Starforge]

11 minutes ago, Tyrannical said:

and at that point you just invalidate Brutes entirely.

I’m getting flashbacks to all of the discussions over the Tanker changes.

[Parabola]

19 minutes ago, Tyrannical said:

Exactly, so why push them towards a role that would only cause them to struggle more? You said yourself that Brutes have a higher health and res/def cap, so they're made to handle the aggro,  whereas Scrappers are not.

 

Giving Scrappers Taunt auras only creates more problems than it solves. As for their 'niche', they do more damage than Brutes, but have less protection, if you were to give them Taunt auras then the latter would have to be adjusted, and at that point you just invalidate Brutes entirely.

Well there's quite a lot to unpack in this discussion. I would very much question that scrappers do more damage than brutes across the board, it is very dependent on powersets and circumstances. I am certainly confident in saying that scrappers don't outdamage brutes to the same extent that brutes out tough scappers. Running at high fury is easy and the consistent damage that provides is generally easier to use than swingy random crits.

 

Aggro management is also very much dependent on circumstances. If you are a solo scrapper (or brute, blaster or whatever) then you are getting all the aggro regardless of taunt auras. The only difference being that most scrappers have to chase runners and brutes do not.

 

It's only when teamed that having a taunt aura could make a difference to how much aggro you get. If you are a scrapper on a team with no other melee then you are very likely to be the designated point man regardless of having a taunt aura or not, and you will be eating the alpha even if you might not be keeping all the aggro long term. Conversely if you a scrapper on a team with a tank or brute then even if you have a taunt aura it will be weaker than theirs and if things are working correctly you shouldn't be stripping aggro from them.

 

So either way it shouldn't make a huge difference and I don't see the problem with all scrappers having the weak taunt auras that some sets already have. It is just a quality of life feature because chasing runners on melee only characters isn't fun (to me, others may differ). Rad, inv, willpower and shield scrappers are hardly hamstrung by having their taunt auras, far from it. They don't collapse under the weight of the aggro they generate and at the same time their presence has also not invalidated brutes in any way. Scrappers could take much more significant buffs than taunt auras before this was even a remote possibility.

[Apparition]

12 hours ago, Razor Cure said:

But wasn't rad Armour 'new'? I dont recall it being on Test at the time of the SHutdown (unlike Bio).

Also, scrapper sets NOT having a taunt aura would make powers like Invincibility and RttC way less effective, not to mention other sets WANTING baddies close, like Fire Armour or DA, or even Energy Aura.

Which is pretty stupid. To just flat out say it will never happen, even in the case of a new powerset that needs/requires/makes sense to have a taunt aura.

 

From what I recall (and I may well be off here), Radiation Melee and Radiation Armor were in the database in the Issue 24 beta, but had no or few animations to go with them as Paragon Studios didn't get a chance to finish them.