Weekly Discussion 84: Kinetic Melee

[Myrmidon]

1 minute ago, Erratic1 said:

 

Hmmm...both of best worlds? A power which when taken gives a permanent lower effect and clicks for augmented effect?

That is pretty close to one of Galaxy Brain’s ideas of it granting the first stack permanently and then adding more when triggered. Perhaps something like these are the Power Siphon way to go.

[Myrmidon]

10 hours ago, Safehouse said:

 

I don't know how I slept on EA when the game was live but I always ignored it.

Likely because the set was 💩 when it launched and even after it was fixed, you just never got around to it.😁

 

My reason was that I was waiting for it to port over to Tankers (which is a discussion for another thread, so derail over).

[Safehouse]

Just now, Myrmidon said:

Likely because the set was 💩 when it launched and even after it was fixed, you just never got around to it.😁

 

My reason was that I was waiting for it to port over to Tankers (which is a discussion for another thread, so derail over).

You're probably right, I do have vague recollection of people saying "EA is crap, no touch." Joke's on them, my main was an elec/regen scrapper on live 😛

 

Heh, yeah I could do whole threads about EA too!

[Myrmidon]

On 1/10/2021 at 10:29 AM, Greycat said:

Ah, yes. Nascar Melee...

 

Mechanics wise, I don't know. Animations/look and feel wise, it's just ... eh, not been that appealing with the random waving about. Plus, well... thanks to the sound, I can't help but call it Nascar Melee.

Solarverse made a sound addon that sounds a lot like MCU magic. I am going to keep using that until I have to drop it when Kinetic Melee (eventually) receives a balance pass.

Edited January 12, 2021 by Myrmidon

[Hew]

Update on noob (nascar/wp):

 

T2 and T3, despite supposedly having fast casts, feel slow as dirt. I know that my fast cast ranged and melee attacks (~1, 1.2 secs) on other sets are FAST. This is like, when will I get there.

 

I don't understand why that is, but the numbers dont represent the feel of other powers that have "the same" cast time. How is that even possible? It feels like 2 second cast time powers.

 

Also, my damage seems pretty beat, comparatively speaking. 

 

edit: Compare body blow and smashing blow with tranq dart, and the pain is obvious. 😞

Edited January 12, 2021 by Hew

[Galaxy Brain]

3 minutes ago, Hew said:

Update on noob (nascar/wp):

 

T2 and T3, despite supposedly having fast casts, feel slow as dirt. I know that my fast cast ranged and melee attacks (~1, 1.2 secs) on other sets are FAST. This is like, when will I get there.

 

I don't understand why that is, but the numbers dont represent the feel of other powers that have "the same" cast time. How is that even possible? It feels like 2 second cast time powers.

Like with Burst, it has to do with when the hits land. IIRC the T2 actually hits *after* the animation is over/cancellable lol

 

If you string them all together it feels faster as they flow one into the other more smoothly

Edited January 12, 2021 by Galaxy Brain

[Hew]

3 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

Like with Burst, it has to do with when the hits land. IIRC the T2 actually hits *after* the animation is over/cancellable lol

yeah that might be it. not sure. been comparing powers i can get at low levels with similar cast times.

[Myrmidon]

17 hours ago, Vanden said:

I think @Galaxy Brain up there has a pretty good handle on what the set is lacking.

To be clear, I believe that GB’s ideas would make a perfect template to expand upon.

[Myrmidon]

32 minutes ago, Hew said:

yeah that might be it. not sure. been comparing powers i can get at low levels with similar cast times.

Add the T1 to the chain and then see how it flows. Kinetic Melee is one of those sets that actually makes use of the it.

[Eldyem]

My biggest issue with KM's design is that I just don't care about the last 2 powers. I can have my full game single target rotation down by level 4, which leaves very little to look forward to.

 

I think there's plenty of issues with the set - Repulsing Torrent has a bizarre design philosophy for a melee set, Power Siphon doesn't feel like it works right, and the overall damage feels like I'm working extra hard for middling gains at best - but by the time I have Burst the set feels "over". Focused Burst and Concentrated Strike feel bizarrely bad.

I've seen a lot of suggestions for Concentrated Strike, but I think it should also just have a normal crit for Scrappers and Stalkers. I also generally agree with Power Siphon either refreshing all stack durations or having much longer stack times; it's presently worse than build up in a lot of situations, which is a terrible thing for a build up replacement to be.
 

As an aside, I think the animations with /Shield look really awful, but I'm not sure what could be done to fix them.

[siolfir]

1 hour ago, Eldyem said:

I've seen a lot of suggestions for Concentrated Strike, but I think it should also just have a normal crit for Scrappers and Stalkers.

I agree with you, but in the Energy Melee discussion it was brought up that Total Focus (same damage/recharge/endurance cost) hit too hard to have a full damage critical. I was also pushing for a higher percentage on Total Focus, and instead critical damage was added to Energy Transfer. That's why I suggested - since it also recharges Power Siphon, and Total Focus now grants Energy Focus - that it share the critical damage percentage that Total Focus has (28% of base damage).

[Eldyem]

1 hour ago, siolfir said:

I agree with you, but in the Energy Melee discussion it was brought up that Total Focus (same damage/recharge/endurance cost) hit too hard to have a full damage critical. I was also pushing for a higher percentage on Total Focus, and instead critical damage was added to Energy Transfer. That's why I suggested - since it also recharges Power Siphon, and Total Focus now grants Energy Focus - that it share the critical damage percentage that Total Focus has (28% of base damage).

I get the logic on some level, but I think as just a design philosophy there's something incredibly unfair about Scrappers and Stalkers getting variants of sets that just ignore a portion of their mechanic - it feels like there's something intrinsically wrong with the set design if we can't just make them work with the mechanic but somehow can make other sets work with it. Pushing Scrapper/Stalker damage down while leaving Tanker/Brute damage in place feels unfair.

If the disparity of Scrappers/Stalkers getting Power Siphon AND crits while the other two get nothing is a problem, then add the Power Siphon recharge to Brutes/Tankers. KM is, to my knowledge, middle-bottom of the pack, and I don't think pushing it up a few places is problematic, especially if we fully uncouple Power Siphon recharge and crits so that ATOs don't make it too crazy.

[Zepp]

My thoughts were:

• Power Siphon should be like Reach for the Limit. (auto with ability-specific timers)
• The animations feel long (although the DpA is actually fine).
• The sound is a little annoying.

[Machariel]

One of my most played characters is a KM/EA stalker (50+3 IOs etc) so here's my thoughts:

Obviously the fact that Stalker KM gets the highest DPA assassin's strike in the game - by a LOT - means that

I like that KM is an early blooming set.  T1-T4 being the best chain means it's a great set for rolling through low level content. 

I LOVE Burst.  It may not be the best AoE but the animation is awesome and it looks great when you're surrounded by enemies.  Please never change the 100% crit rate on Hide.  This power is my MVP on things like the Citadel TF.

I don't use Focused Burst, which I think is fine.  I use Zapp for my ranged attack needs.  I think it's good that Focused Burst is available if people want the utility of a ranged attack but I don't think it needs any changes.

Concentrated Strike is, as others have stated, a noob trap.  I take it because I like the animation and because you can turn it into a proc bomb which helps make up for the fact that it can't crit, but the 'recharge build up' effect is pretty superfluous with the Stalker ATO.  While I'm a little torn because I think the set is strong enough without it and some people enjoy the utility, if I were to change anything on KM it'd be this power.  The description of Kinetic Melee says it's a mix of slow and fast attacks so rather than speeding it up I'd prefer to see it get maybe a little more base damage and be able to get some, if not full, damage on criticals.

 

Visually, I love almost all the animations in the set (CS is a little wack) and the sound effects. 

[carroto]

On 1/11/2021 at 9:23 AM, Safehouse said:

my main issue is the lack of impact that the sounds design has. When you strike an enemy, it really doesn't FEEL like you've hit them hard.

This is me as well.  The hit sounds are, for me, too high-pitched.  Seems like I'm hitting an empty tin box.  They really grate on me.  Maybe I should try a sound mod and see if that helps.  The combination of the animations and sounds makes for a set that just doesn't feel powerful or even congruous.

 

Otherwise I think I agree with a lot that others have said.  On paper it seems like the set should be mostly okay.  Animation times for at least the lower-level powers are okay.  The set sure does feel slow though.  It would be great if not all of the higher powers were so slow.

 

The set actually has a lot of things I like.  A ranged attack in a melee set is a real plus for me.  A decent(ish) PBAoE (KD also a plus).  A cone is nice, but needing to burn a slot on KB-to-KD is a negative.  A mix of secondary effects with low chances means it might as well not have secondary effects, but whatever.  Not uncommon.

 

It seems like it should be at least playable, but I have never been able to make it work for me.  I think it comes down to the feel.  Sounds and animations.  I wouldn't want to take the animations from those who like them, but I don't know what the solution would be.  I'm guessing that alternate animations would need to keep the same hit times, which is presumably a significant factor in why they feel slow.  So other than just speeding up some of the animations I'm not sure what to suggest.

 

I think that if some of them could be sped up and I applied some kind of sound mod that would probably address the feel of it, which would likely be enough to edge the set over into playability for me.  On top of that some of the other suggestions from this thread to improve Power Siphon and Concentrated Strike would bump it up into at least a mid-low tier set instead of bottom of the barrel.

[JelloMold]

Anyone else remember the original sounds for the set back when it was in beta? It got a lot of hate for being “whisper melee” but then, oh man... Talk about over correcting. I lie awake at night dreaming of the old Whisper Melee sounds turning up in some forgotten corner of the spaghetti code.

I wouldn’t mind the sounds quite so much if they didn’t seem to break the ‘rules’ that every other combat sound follows, namely getting quieter as you get farther away. Someone using KM anywhere in range sounds like they’re using it RIGHT IN MY EAR. No other powerset has this quirk that I’m aware of - standing farther away makes MA punches sound like they’re (gasp) happening farther away - and boy is it the worst one to get that privilege. Is there any chance this counts as a bug that can get fixed?

[eknudson]

Is Burst supposed to be an automatic critical from hide on a stalker?  Kinetic Melee, in my experience, is pretty good on a stalker and that's where it's easily the best. Even there, the only thing that makes it good enough are the lightning-fast assassin's strike, and the screen full of criticals when I hit Burst from hide. If either of those gets nerfed in a balance pass then the rest of the set needs to be significantly buffed to make up for it. 

[Chris24601]

My suggestion for Power Siphon is to make it like Follow Up on Claws... a melee attack that starts off a period where you can build stacks and, if you slot enough recharge, can essentially be permanent. Maybe, set the stacks to 50-75% of their current values with the idea that you'll be playing a mini-game of maintaining stacks pretty much full-time in combat (slightly more involved than even Follow Up since that only builds stacks from itself... this would build stacks from every hit you make).

 

Option two for Power Siphon is make it an auto-power something like Blaster Defiance where once you pick it, each hit automatically adds a stack (with the cyclone effect around you triggering when you reach full stacks as a visual cue that you're at/maintaining full stacks).

 

My personal peeve with the set overall is that it plays like Claws' slower gimped cousin. Both have the same sort of ranged attack, PBAoE and ranged knockback cone... but KM's effects let it work for a lot more concepts (martial arts, magic, repulsor tech, etc.) while claws are... claws. The cast time/recharge on a lot of the attacks could stand some speeding up. For example, Focused Burst takes nearly twice as long to cast and has about a 30% longer recharge time compared to Claws' Focus for about a 20% increase in damage. Burst vs. Spin is similarly gimped and and does even less damage despite being in a higher tier (I know... secondary effects, but the ultimate secondary effect is death... which claws delivers).

 

 

[Cutter]

I rolled up a Kin/Elec brute the other day, prompted in large part by this thread. I definitely notice the animation speed > effect issue (also, Burst just takes  f o r e v e r). I will say tho, the attacks do seem to have a nice flow to them (unlike, say, Psi Melee, which feels all kinds of choppy). I'm not high enough for Concentrated Strike but based on the comments I've seen (plus just looking at it in the builder) it's likely not making the cut, from both an animation time & aesthetic pov. Srsly it looks awful.

 

51 minutes ago, Chris24601 said:

My personal peeve with the set overall is that it plays like Claws' slower gimped cousin.

I like the Claws comparison. I'll have to dust of my claw tank and play her back to back with my kin broot so I can better see how they stack up.

 

Echoing the calls to change Power Siphon somehow, and do a pass on the animations in terms of when the attacks actually hit. I don't have enough experience to say what those should be, but PS sure feels lacking somehow. Reach for the Limit clone sounds interesting, or maybe a +dam/tohit mechanic similar to Blood Frenzy stacks?

[RCU7115]

8 hours ago, Chris24601 said:

My suggestion for Power Siphon is to make it like Follow Up on Claws... a melee attack that starts off a period where you can build stacks and, if you slot enough recharge, can essentially be permanent. Maybe, set the stacks to 50-75% of their current values with the idea that you'll be playing a mini-game of maintaining stacks pretty much full-time in combat (slightly more involved than even Follow Up since that only builds stacks from itself... this would build stacks from every hit you make).

 

Option two for Power Siphon is make it an auto-power something like Blaster Defiance where once you pick it, each hit automatically adds a stack (with the cyclone effect around you triggering when you reach full stacks as a visual cue that you're at/maintaining full stacks).

 

My personal peeve with the set overall is that it plays like Claws' slower gimped cousin. Both have the same sort of ranged attack, PBAoE and ranged knockback cone... but KM's effects let it work for a lot more concepts (martial arts, magic, repulsor tech, etc.) while claws are... claws. The cast time/recharge on a lot of the attacks could stand some speeding up. For example, Focused Burst takes nearly twice as long to cast and has about a 30% longer recharge time compared to Claws' Focus for about a 20% increase in damage. Burst vs. Spin is similarly gimped and and does even less damage despite being in a higher tier (I know... secondary effects, but the ultimate secondary effect is death... which claws delivers).

 

 

I would love for Power Siphon to be changed to Follow Up. 

[Take One]

On the discord we talked about stances to replace Siphon Power.

 

I suggested Yin and Yang stances:

 

Yin Stance: when you take damage, your own damage is boosted.

Yang Stance: when you deal damage, your damage resistance is boosted.

 

Once you select Siphon Power (or whatever it will be renamed to), you are always in one of the two stances.

[Oskmey]

KM/Inv Stalker and I have her up to 47 at the moment with a few IO sets slotted. I prefer to run with teams and while she is a great solo character, when I am on teams I simply cannot deal my highest damage quickly enough. By the time my attack chain even starts most of the mob is down or heavily damaged. Then there are the corpse hits, a lot of those.

 

This is due to two reasons: long animations and assassin's strike being extremely interruptible. It feels like if the character even has a light wind go through the area, she has to restart the long ass animation/attack all over again, if there is another target to hit.

 

The last TF I went on, I ended up mostly hunting down glowies to click and helped hit the big bad at the end of the arc.

 

 

[arcane]

Power siphon clearly needs work but it’s only the animation of the big hitter and the ranged attack that keep me from playing the set, personally.

[arcane]

4 hours ago, Take One said:

On the discord we talked about stances to replace Siphon Power.

 

I suggested Yin and Yang stances:

 

Yin Stance: when you take damage, your own damage is boosted.

Yang Stance: when you deal damage, your damage resistance is boosted.

 

Once you select Siphon Power (or whatever it will be renamed to), you are always in one of the two stances.

Stances are neat... but should probably have some thematic relationship to the set... 

[Psyonico]

5 hours ago, Take One said:

On the discord we talked about stances to replace Siphon Power.

 

I suggested Yin and Yang stances:

 

Yin Stance: when you take damage, your own damage is boosted.

Yang Stance: when you deal damage, your damage resistance is boosted.

 

Once you select Siphon Power (or whatever it will be renamed to), you are always in one of the two stances.

Yin stance wouldn't work well with defense based sets.