The Warriors are boring - is that a problem?

[Beef Ninja]

My only problems with the warriors are their designs are super boring and all their leaders are just regular members with names.

[DougGraves]

1 hour ago, Beef Ninja said:

My only problems with the warriors are their designs are super boring and all their leaders are just regular members with names.

 

Right?  They could be wearing armor from different time periods.  They could have bosses with a mythological connection.  Something interesting

[Take One]

The Warriors are the scions of Cimerora, who are also entirely non-magical bad-asses. Maybe they could use some updates along those lines... But don't ruin them with dual pistols or boring stuff like that. Give them battle-shouts that buff the lot of them, give them the ability to summon more of their kind, give them thrown weapons or even molotovs. Keep them as the pinnacle of natural humans, because in a sea of weird freakish street gangs, they are the Warriors, and they don't need any weird gimmicks. Just a sword, a spear and a sweet-ass vest. Okay, maybe a shield?

[Grouchybeast]

22 hours ago, Piecemeal said:

I don't think anyone would object to these pinnacles of human perfection being rewarded with the use of relics to augment their already formidable powers... would they? 🤭

I would.  I mean, I wouldn't cry into my pillow at night over it, or anything, but it would be a shame to have the single solitary Natural origin group who actually have a philosophical commitment to achieving perfection as unaugmented humans turn out to be just another bunch of magic users after all.

[Replacement]

I think if you're going to give more warriors magic items, it's best to imagine they use it like ammunition.  Something used, as opposed to something they build themselves around. 

 

The warriors also highlight, to me, the lack of "natural" power sets outside of melee and archery.  Like yeah, I'd love to see some of the later sets migrated over, (though they're all over dark astoria and night ward  with dual blades, street justice, titan weapons, and even dual pistols), but those sets wouldn't really help break up gameplay with new combat roles.

 

I'd like to see a dedicated archer with some trick arrows in their quiver for starters (tac arrow version of Entangling, maybe poison gas?)

 

On a different note, I think it would be fantastic to run into a unique boss with a magical beam rifle. Just imagine the captions with all the other warriors freaking out when it starts firing.

 

... And now suddenly I wish staves were in the list of beam rifles for players.

Edited February 17, 2021 by Replacement

[Soyuz]

While it would be nice to see the Warriors change up their game a bit after all this time, I tend to agree with Grouchybeast - having the Warriors break their own code and veer away from the philosophy that defines them would be a little disappointing. From a philosophical point of view, they're not boring at all, in fact they're one of the more interesting groups out there. Everyone else scrambles for whatever scraps of power they can get, but not the Warriors.

 

The only other gang that comes close to this ethos is the Outcasts, but they were born with their gifts. They didn't have to work for them like the Warriors did.

 

There are certainly some options that aren't currently being used which could make the Warriors more interesting or challenging. Starting with pool powers, the whole of the Fighting, Leadership and Presence pools would be appropriate options for them, along with parts of the Concealment pool (but see below).

 

The Warriors strike me mainly as filling the Scrapper niche at present. They hit very hard, they prefer an in-your-face approach to problem solving but perhaps don't feel as tanky as some other groups in the level range. There are plenty of valid options there that have come along since the group was first created back in issue 0. Staves and Shields have already been mentioned, and I'd love to see a Warrior boss using Shield Charge.

 

How about some Ninja Training or Martial Combat options from the Blaster secondaries? Anything you can pass off as just better tactics would seem to be in their wheelhouse. I'm not sure if they'd go full Archery Blaster on you, because I'm not sure it fits their ethos, but they might if it helps them to handle the Freaks and the Tsoo. Same goes for Stalker tactics - it would work, but they might see it as being beneath a true Warrior to strike from hiding.

 

There's another problem with Warriors using archery and TA though. Mainly TA, if I'm honest. Where exactly do you draw the line between the Natural and Technology origins? How many gadgets are needed before the group starts to feel more reliant on tech than training? It's the same issue with magic artifacts, of course, and to a large extent has to be left an exercise for the individual reader.

 

 

[Take One]

On 2/16/2021 at 12:52 PM, Piecemeal said:

I don't think anyone would object to these pinnacles of human perfection being rewarded with the use of relics to augment their already formidable powers... would they? 🤭

I would be disappointed if they gave up their style and special niche and turned into Hellions 2.0

The Warriors are fine the way they are. If you want to beef them up, give them Leadership buffs, war-cries (Cimeroran style), Shield Defense with its buffs for allies, and so on. Let the Warriors continue to sell dangerous and fickle magical items to those lesser gangs who can't handle the true Warrior lifestyle.

[Piecemeal]

2 hours ago, Grouchybeast said:

I would.  I mean, I wouldn't cry into my pillow at night over it, or anything, but it would be a shame to have the single solitary Natural origin group who actually have a philosophical commitment to achieving perfection as unaugmented humans turn out to be just another bunch of magic users after all.

This is the feedback I crave 😋

 

This logic is irrefutable, and only steers my thoughts slightly left of center 😅👍

[TemporalVileTerror]

I'm a very strong proponent of Natural.  There are some very compelling narratives to explore there in a setting otherwise dominated by magical-space "gods."

 

I like @Take One's comment.  There's a LOT of wiggle-room in the form of leaning on the Cimeroran Traitors' toolkit.

 

I'd personally like to see a schism erupt in the Warriors, between those who are willing to lean on magical relics (current Warriors) and those who find that repugnant (perhaps influenced by the likes of Malta and the truth about the Rikti).  The existing content is ripe for such a civil war in the faction.  The Preached Ideology versus the Practised Activities.

Couple that with the proposed Anti-Incarnate content, and you could have a splinter faction of Warriors who seek to leverage social forces as much as personal physique to make themselves the pinnacles of humanity.  Undermine the power of Incarnates by uniting people much the same way the Rikti united humanity in that alternate reality to slay their "gods."

[Piecemeal]

38 minutes ago, TemporalVileTerror said:

I'm a very strong proponent of Natural.  There are some very compelling narratives to explore there in a setting otherwise dominated by magical-space "gods."

 

I like @Take One's comment.  There's a LOT of wiggle-room in the form of leaning on the Cimeroran Traitors' toolkit.

 

I'd personally like to see a schism erupt in the Warriors, between those who are willing to lean on magical relics (current Warriors) and those who find that repugnant (perhaps influenced by the likes of Malta and the truth about the Rikti).  The existing content is ripe for such a civil war in the faction.  The Preached Ideology versus the Practised Activities.

Couple that with the proposed Anti-Incarnate content, and you could have a splinter faction of Warriors who seek to leverage social forces as much as personal physique to make themselves the pinnacles of humanity.  Undermine the power of Incarnates by uniting people much the same way the Rikti united humanity in that alternate reality to slay their "gods."

I don't want you guys to think every villain I touch is gonna get broken up into a civil war. 😄

[Take One]

15 minutes ago, Piecemeal said:

I don't want you guys to think every villain I touch is gonna get broken up into a civil war. 😄

I'd go the opposite route. Let the Warriors stand up for humanity - against the Rikti, against mutants, against undead overlords from the shadows. They are pro-Human. Earth for Humans. Want to fight back but you didn't win the super-power lottery? Join The Warriors, learn how to fight on your own terms. Be the best you can be. Fight for yourself and your family. Protect your home and your world. Don't let so-called heroes acting all high and mighty tell you what to do, or act like they are better than you just because they got lucky. The Warriors just want to find their way home through a city that is out to kill them all...

They are pro-human bigots, so they don't care about your race or creed, as long as you're not a freakish cyborg, unnatural mutant, deranged wizard or insane science experiment. They  are all about unity between humans, because humans are almost an endangered species in this weird world. Join the Warriors. We're family.

Edited February 17, 2021 by Take One

[Ukase]

My grandmother used to say, "If you're bored, it's because you're boring". 

I can understand finding them (or any other npc faction) a bit routine. I consider the Warriors to be an element in the game that makes the suspension of disbelief less necessary. All criminals don't wear flashy spandex with sparks flying from their fingers and farts. I don't find them boring any more than freaks, arachnos or the overly-noisy cimerorans. 

If you were to change anything, change the dialogue while fighting them, or at other points within the arc. 

If you suffer defeat, I can just imagine something along the lines of, "Ha! You might have the hitpoints of a security level 25 @archtype, but you fight like a level 7 hellion!" or "That's what happens when you spend too much time in a fire farm" 

 

Edited February 17, 2021 by Ukase

[Glacier Peak]

Striga Island and arcs aside, I have only ever ran in to them while hunting for badges or in a random mission where the AV for the group shows up. I'd like to see more of them in game in the levels between 35-40, or even pre-incarnate 45ish. I can easily see their AV stumbling upon the Well of the Furies or something like that and then embodying one of the numerous gods of the Greek or Roman pantheons.

[Xenosone]

Probly give the bow wielders some trick arrow stuff and now theyre arachnos

[BZRKR]

They are not, and it is not.

[BZRKR]

20 hours ago, DougGraves said:

 

Right?  They could be wearing armor from different time periods.  They could have bosses with a mythological connection.  Something interesting

Heracles and Odysseus are mythological figures.

[DougGraves]

20 minutes ago, BZRKR said:

Heracles and Odysseus are mythological figures.

But they just have those names.  There is nothing special about them in either costumes or powers.

[Grindingsucks]

37 minutes ago, DougGraves said:

But they just have those names.  There is nothing special about them in either costumes or powers.

Right. 

 

The bosses need to have more interesting appearances and power selections that reflect the mythology of their namesakes.  Heracles should be a big muscly guy with a club, Ajax should be tall, Paris should be a long-haired pretty boy who is really good with a bow, Odysseus should be cunning (okay, the A.I. probably makes that a practical impossibillity), etc. 

[Replacement]

3 hours ago, Ukase said:

My grandmother used to say, "If you're bored, it's because you're boring". 

That is such a wonderfully simple way to explain an issue I've struggled to explain for years.

 

5 hours ago, Piecemeal said:

This is the feedback I crave 😋

 

This logic is irrefutable, and only steers my thoughts slightly left of center 😅👍

There's also a distinction to be made between Warriors, the gang, and Warriors - the individual members.  Heracles thought he found a secret weapon to take down [hero].  That's a Heracles problem.

 

I think if you make it individualistic, or as I mentioned before - emphasize that it's as disposable as the axes they swing or arrows they loose - then some magic here and there is just fine.  You could even say this is reinforced by the finite magic in the Wedding Band! 

 

I would also hope to see it paired with some more Badass Normals though like a (not named) boss that always starts out with Spring Attack on whoever they aggro.

 

So... new Warriors Arc: "Warriors discover Magic Origin SOs" 😄

Edited February 17, 2021 by Replacement

[DougGraves]

3 hours ago, Ukase said:

I consider the Warriors to be an element in the game that makes the suspension of disbelief less necessary.

 

I find the reverse.  The skulls use death magic and are lower level than the Warriors.  How are the warriors as normals with swords and camouflage pants tougher than Skulls?  Make the Warriors levels 1-5 and that makes sense. 

[SwitchFade]

Yeah... Warriors are boring...

 

Right up to the point that a warrior boss lands a hit... Lights out. They are powerful. Try fighting 2 warrior LTs in the 20s on a squishy in Talos, they hit HARD.

 

I'm all for making them look cooler, but I like how they are now, set and power wise.

[Replacement]

9 minutes ago, DougGraves said:

 

I find the reverse.  The skulls use death magic and are lower level than the Warriors.  How are the warriors as normals with swords and camouflage pants tougher than Skulls?  Make the Warriors levels 1-5 and that makes sense. 

B...atman?

[Galaxy Brain]

Put in Warrior-Berserker bosses who's power is 1000 pushups a day and use SS or StJ

[Herotu]

On 2/16/2021 at 11:24 AM, Clave Dark 5 said:

I have to admit I'm not wowed by the Warriors.  I like their nod to the movie of the same name, but beyond that (well they do make decent enough opponents), they're just rather dull ones.  Feel the same about the Family, super powers or no.  "Oooo, guys in suits are going to punch or shoot me, oooo, gang members!"  I mean, I know there's a bit more than that to both, but I'm really here for the further out ideas like "teleporting rocket pack soldiers" or something.

 

But I do still enjoying walking down a street when I'm much higher level and seeing how far I can send one flying with some KB powers.

They need an end drain or CC specialist. People would care then, but I think for the wrong reasons....

[DougGraves]

21 minutes ago, Replacement said:

B...atman?

 

Batman has body armor and gadgets.  He is considered a natural but many posters in this thread would consider him technology because of his gadgets.

 

Give some warriors armor and interesting weapons.  Give them trick arrows and other powers and I would be happy with them being interesting.