The Warriors are boring - is that a problem?

[DougGraves]

8 hours ago, Grouchybeast said:

it would be a shame to have the single solitary Natural origin group who actually have a philosophical commitment to achieving perfection as unaugmented humans turn out to be just another bunch of magic users after all.

 

What powersets in the game would you accept as natural origin?  The only 2 I can think of are willpower and street justice for primaries and secondaries, with the fighting pool and leadership for pools.  Everything else is not something a human can do or uses technology.

[SwitchFade]

1 hour ago, DougGraves said:

 

What powersets in the game would you accept as natural origin?  The only 2 I can think of are willpower and street justice for primaries and secondaries, with the fighting pool and leadership for pools.  Everything else is not something a human can do or uses technology.

Super reflexes

Broadsword (not a device, a tool)

Battle-axe (not a device, a tooll

Katana (not a device, a tooll

Martial arts

Acrobatics

Combat jumping

Gymnastics

 

To name a few 🤪🤪

[ForeverLaxx]

1 hour ago, DougGraves said:

What powersets in the game would you accept as natural origin

Depends on the character backstory. Anything can be "natural" if given the right framing. That's part of what makes this game interesting.

 

For me, the deciding factor between whether a character is Natural or Technology (or even Magic) comes down to how that character functions as a whole. Are the gadgets mostly in the realm of one-shot effects designed to even the playing field while the majority of your skills comes from years of training and martial skill, or are you essentially just a squishy nerd without your power armor? This is the difference between Natural and Technology, at least in regards to basic humans, in my opinion. Batman vs Ironman: both are geniuses, both build tools to aid them heroing (depending on the version of Batman, of course), but only one of them is a threat in combat without any such gadgets.

 

In another example, I have a Magic-origin character based on the technowizard class from Rifts. It's a class of magic defined by its reliance on technogadgets that are nonfunctional on the inside unless you have magic energy to dump into them to "turn them on", so to speak. To an outsider, those guns, grenades, etc are just fancy children's toys; but in the hands of someone with magical prowess they function as you'd expect they would were they mechanical. While this character is entirely dependent on "gadgets" to achieve effects, those gadgets are useless without the character's innate magical ability to power them, so he's Magic-origin.

 

When it comes down to it, you're Technology-origin only if the technology is pulling the heavy lifting in the majority of cases. There's obviously going to be crossover depending on story needs, such as when Batman has to wear a powersuit in order to "stall" Superman in direct combat, but that isn't the normal situation for him. Ironman has to use his powersuit every time.

 

---

 

Back to the thing about the Warriors, I personally feel that if the guys at the top of their gang's inner hierarchy were to use select magical gear it wouldn't affect their Natural origin. While they are in contact with artifacts on a daily basis, only the guys at the very top are "trusted" to use one or two of them. You can even limit the magic they're willing to use to things that simply enhance or compliment their physical training: a power bracelet that works better on someone already strong because it multiplies the wearer's strength (giving a Warrior Super Strength, for instance, where a normal civilian might get something closer to Street Justice). A belt that raises the durability of the wearer, making a Warrior effectively bullet-proof due to their higher physical prowess over a regular person who might only be able to shrug off punches with the same item. They could even use items for special purposes, like the Vulcan gauntlets or Peeble's Ring that have an in-built "timer" forcing the wearer to not become reliant on them in the event the timer ends in the middle of combat.

 

I could go on and on. My point here is that you can sprinkle in aspects to make the faction more interesting to fight that also enhances their backstory rather than runs contrary to it. They don't have to just be guys in yellow vests that swing big swords around and talk a big game.

[Rishidian]

Origins do not need to be strict.  I remember when Batman didn't have body armor (before Michael Keeton), and his gadgets were specific tools for specific situations (think of handcuffs, or Bat Shark Repellant).  His gadgets were most visible in his transportation.

 

Technology is a much wider field than just hi-tech.  Scribes from 1000 years ago, finding a better recipe for ink, are using technology.

 

So I see the Warriors using bows as fitting the Natural Origin, and the Tech Origin.  Using a broadsword could also go both ways.  Is that a mundane broadsword?  Or does it have a little 'extra' in it to make it sharper, lighter, and more durable.  Maybe they found a new steel recipe that makes a superior metal, or maybe they found an unknown substance that improves the end product (like the brewers from 200 years ago that had a 'magic' stirring paddle that started the fermentation).

 

My vision tends to run like this: We all start out as Natural.  Do we rely on something else to give us our power?

Tony Stark relies on Technology

Bruce Wayne relies on his Natural abilities, and augments them with Technology

Scarecrow would be from Science

Clark Kent is weirdness from outer space - he don't count

[Take One]

The Technology origin is a bit weird. For something to count as Tech origin, I think it should be a unique item, probably more advanced than anything in the real world, or something that only works for the user. You could say it's practically magic, just as the saying goes. Thus, a Natural hero using ordinary, non-unique technological items such as guns, kevlar vests, cars, etc should not be considered a Technological hero.

 

To further delve into this: if the gun makes you super, you are tech origin. If you make the gun super, you are natural origin. If the gun shoots for you, you are tech origin. If you can pick up any gun and shoot better than anyone else, you are natural origin.

[DougGraves]

2 hours ago, SwitchFade said:

Super reflexes

Broadsword (not a device, a tool)

Battle-axe (not a device, a tooll

Katana (not a device, a tooll

Martial arts

 

🤪

 

Yes on super reflexes.  And Martial Arts sets that are melee and do not have shuriken.

 

But it is "Technology" not "Devices".  A broadsword, battle axe, and katana are definitely technology.  Unless you think humans naturally have broadswords somehow.

[Galaxy Brain]

Just now, DougGraves said:

 

Yes on super reflexes.  And Martial Arts sets that are melee and do not have shuriken.

 

But it is "Technology" not "Devices".  A broadsword, battle axe, and katana are definitely technology.  Unless you think humans naturally have broadswords somehow.

Technically... it is natural for us to use tools. Even little kids know how to pick stuff up and fling it around 😛

 

 

[Sakura Tenshi]

Culture can also muddle things a bit: Eastern cultures basically wouldn’t recognize a big difference between natural and magic. Train hard enough and boom! Magic powers but it’s all natural stuff. Throwing fire? Natural from that stand point. Riding clouds? Natural for the pure of heart. Laser Beam eyes? Look up Bodhidarma.

[Grouchybeast]

38 minutes ago, Take One said:

To further delve into this: if the gun makes you super, you are tech origin. If you make the gun super, you are natural origin. If the gun shoots for you, you are tech origin. If you can pick up any gun and shoot better than anyone else, you are natural origin.

I like this distinction, very well put.

[Replacement]

It continues to be an extension of what I said about magic items earlier: if you use it to gain an edge, but have no specific reliance upon the thing, you're probably still Natural. 

* If batman needed an exoskeleton just to fight crime, we would call him Technology.  But he's still a badass ninja, so Natural.

* And yet if Iron Man picked up some kung fu, we would still call him Technology just because it's what defines him!  Unless there was a serious sea change as part of a story arc that realigned what defines him and gives him power, he'd still be Tech.

 

To be honest, and before this spirals too far off-topic, I would call the blurred lines between origins a feature.

Edited February 17, 2021 by Replacement

[Piecemeal]

Necro edit: This idea has been tabled and will possibly expanded upon later.

 

Edited May 25, 2021 by Piecemeal

[Replacement]

25 minutes ago, Piecemeal said:

4) If Warriors were to be expanded and staying in theme, I'd be looking at their thematic weaponry, and enchanting. These would result in potential leadership buffs or something more exciting.

I like this distinction of "the magic is my high-end gear" here.  

It also happens to open the door to... flaming battleaxes and ice arrows (we desperately need more sources of incoming Cold damage), "force gauntlets" that add energy damage to their punches, lightning spears, etc.

 

I don't know how impossible it would be to, for example, add a Fire version of Envenomed Blades to an NPC and have it trigger at 50% health -- and actually add a visible flame effect to their sword (I suppose maybe it's possible to just change out their sword skin?)

 

Another avenue to explore is location effects with dropped "totems", similar to Devouring Earth.  This could provide an interesting way to create area buffs/debuffs without straight up giving them magical powers directly.

Edited February 18, 2021 by Replacement

[twozerofoxtrot]

5 hours ago, DougGraves said:

 

What powersets in the game would you accept as natural origin?  The only 2 I can think of are willpower and street justice for primaries and secondaries, with the fighting pool and leadership for pools.  Everything else is not something a human can do or uses technology.

 

Weren't VEATs on Live restricted to Natural Origin? IIRC Psionics are considered in the game lore to be "natural."

 

Though, with that said there are obvious deviations like Penny Yin who as a youngster in Faultline is described as using her powers "naturally" but is considered a mutant later on when she shows up in Indy Port.

 

Probably not super helpful, other than to illustrate that the lore is... flexible. 

[twozerofoxtrot]

33 minutes ago, Piecemeal said:

5) WITHOUT a civil war, an intrepid member could offshoot as a charismatic leader of relic users.

Titan Weapon Warriors?

[Replacement]

Just now, twozerofoxtrot said:

Titan Weapon Warriors?

Ok, unsure if intentional.  My brain is now imagining bosses titan wielding magical objects never intended to be weapons.

 

"These statues were built to maintain a containment field!"
"Don't care, they hit hard."

[Piecemeal]

3 minutes ago, Replacement said:

Ok, unsure if intentional.  My brain is now imagining bosses titan wielding magical objects never intended to be weapons.

 

"These statues were built to maintain a containment field!"
"Don't care, they hit hard."

You just scooped me on Monument Melee.

[Bionic_Flea]

[Black Zot]

1 hour ago, Piecemeal said:

You just scooped me on Monument Melee.

 

I would laugh my head off if I saw someone grab that humongous statue behind Positron in Steel Canyon and clock some Outcasts with it.  Talk about overkill.

[Sakura Tenshi]

One possible suggestion to amp warriors up a bit could just be as simple as elemental weapons. Still mostly smash and lethal but with a fiery/electrical/dark/cold kick.

 

as a side note on the aesthetics front, one thing to possibly consider (and maybe add tot their rivalry with The Tsoo) would be the Warriors no longer restricting themselves to Greek themes, but incorporating the warrior identities of other cultures (like Nordic, Japanese, Chinese, Arabian, etc.) because they’ve been playing too much For Honor. (And possibly them finding a way into night ward and swiping stuff from the black knights?)

[cranebump]

4 hours ago, Take One said:

If you can pick up any gun and shoot better than anyone else, you are natural origin.

Unless you have a mutation that makes you shoot better.

 

Or took a serum that gave you supernatural aim.

 

Or you ensorcelled the gun with “Deadshot Runes.”

 

(Not trying to argue. Just chiming in with the idea that it’s not as simple to classify as it appears):-)

 

Don’t see why the Warriors couldnt modernize their arsenal. It would be weird to see them with guns, though.

[Replacement]

2 hours ago, Piecemeal said:

You just scooped me on Monument Melee.

... Build Monumentum.

14 minutes ago, Sakura Tenshi said:

(And possibly them finding a way into night ward and swiping stuff from the black knights?)

Tbh, there's something to be said about the black knights eating the warriors' lunch.

[cranebump]

Instead of a Civil War, upgrades could just be the natural consequence of constantly being outclassed. The group evolves to amp up its game, while somehow rationalizing it to themselves that they’re still holding to “traditional values.” Whatever resistance to the movement there is is too feeble to stop the evolution.

Or maybe Traditional Warriors might remain in game as is, while the evolution of the group can be explored in a high level arc. It certainly feels like the Warriors might have some sort of affinity for the Well, or some similar source of power. Like, I dunno, the spiritual manifestation of “pure, human will?”

Edited February 18, 2021 by cranebump

[Glacier Peak]

I would dig having gender diversification with the Warrior enemy group. It's funny that I didn't even realize that their weren't any female enemies in the group until it was brought up in this thread, but now I'm thinking about what other groups are lacking in villainous diversity. That being said, I would hope it's not just a gimmick, but like @Piecemealalluded to, perhaps a strong willed woman leads an offshoot or splinter faction vying for mystic/magically imbued artifacts that can either tie in via story arc or be able to stand on their own in an appropriate zone like First Ward, or maybe even Cimerora.

 

Edit: I just wanted to add I love the work @Piecemeal did with the Vazhiloks, Freaks, and Freakloks. MORE OF THIS PLEASE!!!!

Edited February 18, 2021 by Glacier Peak

[Replacement]

One thing worth noting: the existence of Warrior Earth. I think those are in some Maria Jenkins missions, or maybe Tina.

They aren't exactly interesting, in fact they're really easy at that point, but at least there are a lot of lady warriors!

 

Could be a good place to check for skins, though memory tells me they're a bit bland and monotone.

[Draeth Darkstar]

7 hours ago, Piecemeal said:

3) Warriors need gender diversification.

If you decide to do this, please make a plot point out of it instead of it just suddenly being different.

 

From the original City of Heroes site description of the group (preserved here) "The Warriors are a fierce street gang in Paragon City. They operate primarily out of the Talos Island and Striga Isle zones. Their membership is wide and varied, and they don’t seem to discriminate based on ethnicity, race, or religion. The one common trait that all members share is the ability to fight and to fight well."

 

Notice what's missing there? Gender. The Warriors are the exact type of dudebro cult that I have always thought to have intentionally been written as sexist. They're obsessed with the ancient Greeks, after all - an extremely misogynistic society. As much as I am completely, 100% for diversity of all types, I would hate to see it added in a retcon instead of a plot development. This is a perfect opportunity to make a point out of prejudice being a weakness.

 

Also, as far as peoples' image of the Warriors being "all natural," that's not really accurate to what the lore has always said. Also from the original lore: "The Warriors’ martial skills are also seemingly enhanced by some exposure to magical energies. Nowhere is this enhancement clearer than among the bosses, although some suspect that the lieutenants and even some of the street soldiers have also benefited from a magical blessing. The Smasher Elite, Slasher Elite, and Hewer Elite are not only expert fighters, but are magically tough and resilient. Inexperienced heroes may be surprised the first time they land a powerful blow to see the Warrior laugh it off and strike back just as hard... Rumors suggest a man named Odysseus founded the Warriors after he stole a magical artifact from a defeated hero, or possibly did a favor for the Circle of Thorns, or even sold his soul to an Arachnos mystic. To date he has remained hidden, directing his soldiers from the highest levels."

 

The AE description states: "After making a deal with a demon prince, David Odysseus Hill formed one of the most powerful gang forces in Paragon City. In fact, he now leads the coalition of gangs known as Smuggler's Run. All of the Warriors gain power by drinking from an ancient mystical urn given to Odysseus by the demon. It is whispered around Paragon City that the urn is connected to the Well of the Furies. With his own highly trained fighting force adding the muscle provided by the Hellions and Outcasts, this group is a threat to take over all gang activity in Paragon City. "

 

Calling them a "purely Natural" group is very, very disingenuous inaccurate.

Edited February 18, 2021 by Draeth Darkstar
Added link to HCWiki Warriors article.