Trapdoor Test Results - the other half of Pylon testing?

Kanil · March 10, 2021

so, i've been hanging on making this thread until vids were unbanned because a lot it is "source: trust me bro" and there are factors that could be observed in terms of how folks handle clearing through maps, buuut i've been curious about this stuff for awhile in terms of comparing results with other folks. this is also a place to encourage me to keep better record of this because i love hitting pylons and doin' this just for fun, haha.

what is the trapdoor test?

it's running mender ramiel's "defeat trapdoor" mission at +4x8. this is the second mission in the "power overwhelming" arc found in ouroboros. specifically it is the second mission in mender ramiel's chain after talking to positron or lord recluse and the "view your future" mission.

it's looking for completed builds with incarnates in and similar rules to pylon testing where you don't use hybrid active nor lore pets - only destiny and yellow insps for the blinds that the arachnos do when it comes up. you kill everything up to trapdoor except the popup turrets (this favors ranged by a lot to run off to the sides) and then waste trapdoor. timer starts when you self-buff w/ destiny or whatever and ends when trapdoor turns blue.

note: do NOT click trapdoor or else the mission will complete and you will lose it - part of the good parts of the test is that it's insanely easy to get and reset! if you have mender ramiel as a regular contact, you can ouroboros portal out and then just reset the mission normally. if you are doing it as part of an ouro mission, you will have to log out of the char to reset it.

why trapdoor?

it has a good combination for testing parameters in terms of accounting for issues that you will come across at lvl50 and being a very straightforward map that has good enemy grouping and very, very simple layouts making runs simple and clean while still accounting for taunt auras/how diff powersets generate runners.

in terms of the spread of enemies and what they do. the combination of arachnos having a bunch of asshole things (include holds, -end, blind, -def, etc) and council mostly having their standard s/l loadout, means you get a realistic measure of defensive power.

it's effectively a way to measure a build's general clearing power in a mission rather than raw ST DPS. when combined with pylon tests it can be used get a general ideal of the overall firepower of high end builds i've made.

results that i've recorded:

rankings based on averages:

PLAYLIST OF RECORDED RUNS HERE: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLRcxfxypPPGjsGMnEwDzswMxGqKDniZcl

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postnerf tw/bio scrapper (crit strikes in AoD)

avg: 5m38s

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postnerf tw/bio scrapper (crit strikes in FT)

avg: 5m33s

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postnerf tw/bio brute

avg: 5m59s

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fire/bio/fire scrapper (crit strikes in cremate)

avg: 5m1s

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fire/bio/fire scrapper (crit strikes in GFS)

avg: 4m52s

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battle axe/bio/phys scrapper

avg:5m29s

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kat/bio scrapper

avg: 5m16s

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db/bio scrapper

avg:5m28s

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ice/bio/mu scrapper

avg: 4m47s

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EM/bio/fire scrapper

avg:5m45s

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EM/bio/mu scrapper

avg:5m25s

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rad/bio/fire scrapper (all in on procs, bad build with like 22% s/l def)

avg: 4m38s

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fire/time/dark corr

avg: 6m11s

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fortunata/soul

avg: 4m42s

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bio/ss/mu tank (doublerage active from the start)

avg:4m51s

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broadsword/bio/weapon mastery (lmao) scrapper

avg (redraw off): 5m32s

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stj/ena/fire stalker

avg: 6m31s

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Edited August 6, 2021 by Kanil

Bopper · March 10, 2021

@Kanil
For those who are not familiar, can you provide a brief tutorial on how to choose the Trapdoor mission? I could see this thread quickly growing, and it'll be good for others who want to test their own times to refer back to your OP and know how to quickly load up the mission.

Thanks

Kanil · March 10, 2021

On 3/10/2021 at 10:09 PM, Bopper said:

@Kanil
For those who are not familiar, can you provide a brief tutorial on how to choose the Trapdoor mission? I could see this thread quickly growing, and it'll be good for others who want to test their own times to refer back to your OP and know how to quickly load up the mission.

Thanks

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i put in a brief description - not sure how detailed i should get into getting the mission, haha.

anyways, also added a ranking sorting and average times for my own results, haha.

Bopper · March 10, 2021

On 3/10/2021 at 10:21 PM, Kanil said:

i put in a brief description - not sure how detailed i should get into getting the mission, haha.

anyways, also added a ranking sorting and average times for my own results, haha.

Expand

The description looks very good. If anyone needs pictures, these might help.

Go to Ouro, expand the level 50 category:

Then scroll down to 19.03 to find Power Overwhelming

Bopper · March 10, 2021

Just ran it with my stone tank. I like the mission, it was interesting to see where my vulnerabilities were with my build. In my case, getting Blinded (I used no insps) and taking -Recharge slowed me down quite a bit (and having to TP into the trapdoor...stupid curb haha). Something I didn't see specified in your up-front matter, should people run this with Archvillains or Elite Bosses? Speaking with you in the past, I believe you run it against AVs. So it might be good to add an up front parameters summary:

Parameters:

Set Notoriety: +4/x8, Solo Bosses, ~~Solo AVs~~ (disregard, Trapdoor always is an EB)

Inspirations Allowed: Yellows only (for the Blind debuffs)

Incarnates Allowed: Alpha, Destiny, Interface, Hybrid (Passive only, cannot activate toggle)

Edited March 10, 2021 by Bopper

Elmyder · March 10, 2021

First blind test on my fire/fire blaster was 4:34. I used ageless core, had assault hybrid passive (not clicked), alpha and interface slotted, no other incarnates. (+4x8 and EB, as per what Kanil said in discord.)

There were lots of mistakes. Lost at least 20 seconds chasing down a boss who ran away. Had a few attack chain mistakes, didn't prioritize bosses well at all, and some movement inefficiencies. Will try again in the future. I expect to get at least sub 4 with a little practice.

Ratch_ · March 10, 2021

I've been doing some trapdoor test ever since kanil told me about it a few months ago. Here are some of my results (fire/fire blaster did use defense amplifier) everything else followed said rules. Trapdoor is an EB, not an AV. 4/8, solo bosses, yellows only with allowed incarnates.

Fire/Fire/Fire Blaster (exclosure -> ageless core with defense amplifier for mez protection)

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Fire/Mental/Mu blaster (clairon - no defense amplifier)

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Spines/Bio/Mu Scrapper

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Dm/Bio/Fire Scrapper

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I've got 2 doms ready to test and I'll report those later once I get some tests under my belt.

Edited March 11, 2021 by Ratch_

Kanil · March 11, 2021

broadsword/bio/weapon mastery (lmao)

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overall happy with my big brain respec into having target drone and explosive shuriken together since proc builds generally tend to lack accuracy/tohit

Keleko · March 11, 2021

I've done a few runs with my toons, too. I clearly need better practice to

Rad/SS/Soul Tanker - no active incarnates used, just passives

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Claws/Bio/Soul Scrapper - no active incarnates used, just passives

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Frosticus · March 11, 2021

Would the perception proc provide enough to see thru blind?

I run +perception on everything so I'm not sure, but that could remove the need for inspirations.

Keleko · March 11, 2021

It might. If you have tactics it would do it, too. I just didn't have tactics on my scrapper. My tank had no issues with that.

EidoIruson · March 11, 2021

Without an AV at the end it feels more like an AOE DPS test than an overall test, but maybe that's just me?

Troo · March 11, 2021

On 3/10/2021 at 11:29 PM, Bopper said:

Parameters:

Set Notoriety: +4/x8, Solo Bosses, ~~Solo AVs~~ (disregard, Trapdoor always is an EB)

Inspirations Allowed: Yellows only (for the Blind debuffs)

Incarnates Allowed: Alpha, Destiny, Interface, Hybrid (Passive only, cannot activate toggle)

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Quick question: Isn't +4/0 on a T4 50 the same as 0/8 on a 50 with alpha slotted?

Edited March 11, 2021 by Troo

Bopper · March 11, 2021

On 3/11/2021 at 4:55 AM, Troo said:

Quick question: Isn't +4/0 on a T4 50 the same as 0/8 on a 50 with alpha slotted?

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I don't know if I follow. I want to say no, but I'm curious on how you're defining their equivalence.

Bopper · March 11, 2021

On 3/11/2021 at 3:40 AM, Frosticus said:

Would the perception proc provide enough to see thru blind?

I run +perception on everything so I'm not sure, but that could remove the need for inspirations.

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You can grab the Increase Perception Base Empowerment buff. I think it does +100 ft, which I think is the same for the Reticle proc.

Ratch_ · March 11, 2021

On 3/11/2021 at 4:22 AM, EidoIruson said:

Without an AV at the end it feels more like an AOE DPS test than an overall test, but maybe that's just me?

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I find all the bosses to really slow down AoE heavy sets like spines. I can agree that 4/8 does have a pretty decent lean to having good AoE, but a good ST can still definitely show in this test. I'm curious if changing to an AV at the end would devolve into only certain archetypes/set combos being able to out dps an AVs regen solo, while as it is currently I feel all combos would be able to reasonably make it through.

Edited March 11, 2021 by Ratch_

Kanil · March 11, 2021

On 3/11/2021 at 4:22 AM, EidoIruson said:

Without an AV at the end it feels more like an AOE DPS test than an overall test, but maybe that's just me?

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it's meant to be in conjunction with pylon testing for hard sustained ST DPS, which is why i mentioned that in the OP. however, the combination of the amount of frequent bosses and an EB at the end actually makes a massive difference for clearing times so while it leans to AOE it isn't strictly aoe-only for the reasons ratch mentioned. a good example is the dark/fire corr - it actually blazes through the mission relatively quickly but upon reaching the AV, but once getting to trapdoor it takes a bunch of extra time to get him down. it matters a lot.

so, it's not quite fully an "aoe DPS" test either. it's much more evocative of real mission parameters which are naturally AOE focused because the majority of content structure is beating up groups of enemies and not AVs. i'd also argue it's not an aoe DPS test either because it's not sustained but at the same time that kinda falls into the same trap of how realistically sustained aoe DPS isn't really goign to matter vs. the actual expression of content this is meant to mirror since initial aoe burst damage and openings between groups/downtimes between groups are all accounted for as part of this and massive parts of real play

also, trapdoor can only be an EB anyways lol

stj/ena/fire stalker

avg: 6m31s

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Troo · March 11, 2021

On 3/11/2021 at 5:08 AM, Bopper said:

I don't know if I follow. I want to say no, but I'm curious on how you're defining their equivalence.

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Ah, I guess that may have been a little cryptic. > Level shifts <

With Incarnates come level shifts. A 50+3 is effectively a level 53 fighting 54s at +4.

My question "Isn't +4/0 on a T4 50 the same as 0/8 on a 50 with alpha slotted? " was incorrect.

It should have been: Isn't a max character with all incarnates (50+3) doing +4/8 the same as a 50 non incarnate doing +1/8?

InvaderStych · March 11, 2021

Edit:

No wait, I might have this totally wrong.

Wouldn't the Trapdoor mission keep you at 50+1; so the equivalent would be a non-incarnate at +3x8? The other two level shifts are only active in DA, iTrials, and the Belladonna/Number Six arcs, right?

Either way, I was going to say that the iPowers toolbox of the Post-Incarnate toon should result in a faster clear time against the same relative con level than a Pre-Incarnate (same toon, same build).

Edited March 11, 2021 by InvaderStych

Kanil · March 11, 2021

On 3/11/2021 at 8:54 AM, Troo said:

Ah, I guess that may have been a little cryptic. > Level shifts <

With Incarnates come level shifts. A 50+3 is effectively a level 53 fighting 54s at +4.

My question "Isn't +4/0 on a T4 50 the same as 0/8 on a 50 with alpha slotted? " was incorrect.

It should have been: Isn't a max character with all incarnates (50+3) doing +4/8 the same as a 50 non incarnate doing +1/8?

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mender ramiels arc isnt incarnate content so you only get the +1 boost from it as per "normal" 50 content

EidoIruson · March 11, 2021

On 3/11/2021 at 8:26 AM, Kanil said:

so, it's not quite fully an "aoe DPS" test either. it's much more evocative of real mission parameters which are naturally AOE focused because the majority of content structure is beating up groups of enemies and not AVs. i'd also argue it's not an aoe DPS test either because it's not sustained but at the same time that kinda falls into the same trap of how realistically sustained aoe DPS isn't really goign to matter vs. the actual expression of content this is meant to mirror since initial aoe burst damage and openings between groups/downtimes between groups are all accounted for as part of this and massive parts of real play

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If the goal is trying to mirror real play why do we limit Incarnate powers in this test? By limiting them you are already changing the environment.

Getting Mez'd is something that will happen to Blasters, Corrs, etc. in real play, but they can use Destiny and get Mez protection to fill that giant hole in this test. However, if a ST toon can't use judgement you aren't allowing them to fill that lack of AOE hole.

I guess I'm have a hard time seeing it as an expression of real play vs just an AOE version of the Pylon Test. AOE dps was the wrong term to use when I really just meant AOE damage.

Troo · March 11, 2021

@InvaderStych @Kanil

Ah yes that's it. Thank you. I thought there was a wrinkle in there.

Kanil · March 11, 2021

On 3/11/2021 at 4:27 PM, EidoIruson said:

If the goal is trying to mirror real play why do we limit Incarnate powers in this test? By limiting them you are already changing the environment.

Getting Mez'd is something that will happen to Blasters, Corrs, etc. in real play, but they can use Destiny and get Mez protection to fill that giant hole in this test. However, if a ST toon can't use judgement you aren't allowing them to fill that lack of AOE hole.

I guess I'm have a hard time seeing it as an expression of real play vs just an AOE version of the Pylon Test. AOE dps was the wrong term to use when I really just meant AOE damage.

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honestly, you're overthinking it - its a similar deal to pylon testing for why some folks are OK with using judgement and not.

using stuff that drastically affects dmg or cleartime adds in too much of a fuzziness factor to the comparison points between powersets - same deal as hybrids bein on/off etc. especially in the scope of a full mission where those things get even more variable.

the most realistic view in scope of going "no holds barred" includes huffing insps and just going buckwild but at that point it's more of a race and not really generating that much valuable data for comparison points.

i don't really give a shit about rules lawyering results or anything, its just how i measure my own chars power levels to see build effectiveness.

its interesting to see results for stuff like elm where the scope of a char really pushing the limits even w defensive insps can clear at x rate so if you wanna post clear times go nuts my dude

cuz i just want dataaaaa

Show me your power levels

Edited March 11, 2021 by Kanil

Kanil · March 12, 2021

staff/bio/experimentation (adrenal booster picked)

avg: 8m45s

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i've posted the sentiment before, but i often times wonder where people get the idea that staff "has good aoe" besides the fact that it has a bunch of bad aoe powers.

this is the only melee char i've tested that regularly dies on this. it's specifically related to not being able to kill tarantula mistresses fast enough due to the looooooooooooong ticks of the AOEs so any time there's more than one the char explodes from a lack of def and DDR

ill/pain/scorp controller

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Edited March 12, 2021 by Kanil

Sovera · March 12, 2021

On 3/12/2021 at 3:06 AM, Kanil said:

staff/bio/experimentation (adrenal booster picked)

avg: 8m45s

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death

8m4s

9m23s

8m49s

death

i've posted the sentiment before, but i often times wonder where people get the idea that staff "has good aoe" besides the fact that it has a bunch of bad aoe powers.

this is the only melee char i've tested that regularly dies on this. it's specifically related to not being able to kill tarantula mistresses fast enough due to the looooooooooooong ticks of the AOEs so any time there's more than one the char explodes from a lack of def and DDR

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I mentioned this to someone else yesterday.

On one hand I had someone vociferously rejecting the idea that Claws on a Scrapper was a good AoE set because 'it only had one AoE' as opposed to Spines or Elec. Saying and showing that Shockwave takes the KB>KD IO and that Claws can chain those two AoEs with only Follow-up for infinity, effectively turning it into a blender, did not make them change their mind.

On the other I very recently leveled a Fire/Elec Melee character. Thunderstrike is slow but heavy AoE damage (better on a Tanker because it makes the small 7y AoE wider), Chain Induction bounces around, Lightning Rod kills minions and hurts all around every 26-ish seconds.

So, obviously it must be great in AoE, right? Well, no, it has the same farm map killing test times than Fire Armor paired with humble Martial Arts with its single low damage fast animation Dragon Tail.

-And- it has execrable single target damage.

To not derail I put my Fire/MA Tanker through the paces. No incarnates clicked, no inspirations, +4x8 with bosses:

- 6:20

- 6:12

- 5:58

- 6:01

- 5:57

Pylon times of 3 minutes (with -res procs slotted which I did not use here).

Interesting how the character feels pretty strong but still has low Tanker damage when we compare to Scrapper times.

Edited March 12, 2021 by Sovera

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