Focused Feedback: Travel Power Updates (Build 1)

[Bopper]

6 minutes ago, QuiJon said:

On current live 87.5 requires alot of investment but leaves you 5-6mph behind the speedsters and leapers

Incorrect. On live, the jump speed cap is 78.18 mph, which Afterburner can beat by almost 10 mph.

 

You would have to take mighty leap and use takeoff to hit ss speed.

Edited March 15, 2021 by Bopper

[QuiJon]

Just now, Glacier Peak said:

Okay, this seems to me like an internal bias that prevents objective observation. I could just as easily choose to believe I live in the Matrix or that I am made of jelly beans. The point of this beta feedback thread is to provide the HC team with analysis based on actual testing. **Focused feedback**

 

Here is the link to General Feedback for the proposed changes from Issue 27, Page 2:

 

I am providing feedback. To me more important that within reason all travel powers are closer to equal then it is to their over all speed. right now i get to doors slightly behind leapers and runners. You increase my speed but increase theirs more, you are slowing me down overall. 

[Bopper]

I'm so glad we're spending pages on patchnote feedback over getting to mission doors a few seconds later than others. And here I am using Mission Teleporter and Team Teleporter with Ninja Run as my travel power and not noticing I'm failing my teammates.

[CaptainLupis]

15 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

Fly is not horrible and the suggestion that it is is laughable hyperbole.

It's not horrible, and it is better than on live but there is a very clear disparity. On test I can get to 119.6 mph, within a whisker of the run cap, with no investment of slots or powers beyond superspeed itself. With fly you need an investment of slots or an extra power pick to hit the 102.2 fly cap which is available only while afterburner is up. So you are still slower for more investment. Personally it doesn't bother me, I took fly on many alts before any buffs were handed out to it anyway, but I can see why this is annoying some people.

[QuiJon]

10 minutes ago, TygerDarkstorm said:

Second: I still don't understand these arguments. The same amount of powerpicks in fly as you made before allows you to fly even faster than on live currently (meaning you'll still be just a few seconds behind someone using SS or SJ, even with their beta changes), and as an added bonus, you get Afterburner as a free power that will help boost your cap speed even further for 30 seconds!

It is a few seconds now, when i am moving maybe 5 mph behind the speed and jump cap with current fly+AB. With the new one IF AB is active i will be traveling 18mph behind speed. If it is not 32mph behind speed. In the old days before AB flight maxed out around 60ish mph, while SS was 92.5. No matter the raise this change gives flight, it gave more disparity between the travel powers over all. It essentially has taken back what the original afterburner gave us. Period. There is no way to say it has not, over all even IF where i am going i can get there in 30 seconds speedsters are going to be moving 3 times faster in comaprison to me then they did before the change. 

 

In a strait line sure that might only be a few seconds, what if i am the one that needs to go level or sell before the mission door, or i have to do the fedex and talk to someone in another zone to get a mission door set. Many things can make traveling take more then 30 seconds and leave a team waiting for a flier. 

[Sovera]

56 minutes ago, Glacier Peak said:

The numbers I provided were from the Beta server. And your analysis of travel power parities are in line with what I have seen described by our HC team (though I strongly disagree with your conclusion, as myself and others have stated many times in this thread). SS is fastest, followed by SJ, the Fly. In the middle (or fastest) you have Teleport. They all come with different levels of investment to reach their maximum potential, but the powers themselves have inherent benefits and trade offs. Super Speed is the fastest in a straight line, SJ can come out on top (literally) if there is vertically in your direction of travel, Fly may even beat both of them if the destination is located at the top of a building. Teleport can do all the things with enough slotting and point and click action. 

 

The speed caps for all travel powers have increased (Jump height remains the same, albeit double jump makes this moot). So how you came to conclude that these changes "brought us right back to being slow", I am at a loss.

 

Edit:

 

Further cost/benefit analysis on travel powers:

 

Super Speed has the highest cap (reached easily with minimum investment). It's trade off as a travel power is that it cannot travel vertically (short of the jump boost you get after 4 seconds of travel).

Super Jump allows for very fast horizontal and vertical travel, but slower than SS and it's verticality is limited to Double Jump's 30 second timer (though hitting a zone ceiling can be achieved with proper positioning).

Fly is third in terms of speed cap, but again, as a power it allows a player maximum freedom of movement. You can literally go anywhere with fly - the trade off is it not as fast as SS or SJ. UNLESS you activate the 30 second Afterburner ability, which then gives a player a faster than Super Jump speed cap level of movement.

Teleport is the fastest in my opinion and in terms of distance traveled over time, but it requires a player actively engage in the movement by clicking the location of the next jaunt. 

 

 

11 minutes ago, TygerDarkstorm said:

First: Fly should be slower than SS and SJ; it has a pretty big advantage over those two. 

 

Second: I still don't understand these arguments. The same amount of powerpicks in fly as you made before allows you to fly even faster than on live currently (meaning you'll still be just a few seconds behind someone using SS or SJ, even with their beta changes), and as an added bonus, you get Afterburner as a free power that will help boost your cap speed even further for 30 seconds!

 

As @Wavicle said, you lot arguing against these changes are doing so over a matter of a few seconds. A few seconds should not be that big of a deal. And it's frustrating seeing SJ's new double jump feature being brought up as if it doesn't have limitations similar to the new afterburner.

 

 

 

The whole thing about Fly being 'superior' is a relic from the early issues of the game. Anything now has the ease of use that Fly has with a jetpack costing 5k.

 

Superspeed. The fastest in a straight line. Arch nemesis: walls. Super speed needs to go around them. Cake layer cave room, needs to find the lil ramps.

 

Yes, back in the day. But now with one click the SS character activates their jetpack, clears the wall, and carries on at SS speeds. Same with cake layer room.

 

 

Super-jump. Mid way speed. Terrible at getting all the way up there a really tall place since it means the character needs to land on a ledge so they can jump again.

 

Back in the day that is. Nowadays they purchase a jetpack and climb all the way up. Not even a 10 million purchase. Just 5k for half hour.

 

 

Teleport. Really fast. Terrible at navigating offices. Between animation and inability to click on 'thin air' a teleporter character will be much slower in navigating narrow spaces.

 

Back in the day that is. Nowadays they purchase Athletic Run for free and run around in missions from pack to pack with no hassles in using their main travel mode.

 

 

Where is Fly's 5k purchase that completely negates the downsides of the power? The jump pack allows to push the speeds to cap, but without AB the cap is already near reached so jump pack or not the bottleneck is AB.

 

 

I took Fly back on live because I loved it. And I put up with the -horrible- 58mph cap to slowly float after everyone. Returning to HC it was with immense pleasure that I discovered AB, and then further tremendous pleasure when Bopper posted the interactions of the jump pack and AB (because I never have slots I would consider dropping into a travel power as opposed to getting something like another 0.20 EPS).

 

Are the changes terrible and the devs hate Fly? No. But the paradigm that Fly is da bestest and laziest travel power is incredibly outdated when all other travel powers have their shortcomings easily solved by a minuscule sum and a click.

[Captain Citadel]

I'd be perfectly fine with bumping up the new effective jump speed cap to sit anywhere between 102 and 120. Say...112? Then it's still faster than Flight and not as much slower than Speed as Flying would be. In exchange, leave everything like it currently is on Beta, but allow players who have taken Fly, Hover, and Evasive Maneuvers to have an unlimited toggle on Afterburner. Keep the Only Affecting Self limitation, it doesn't bother me. All I want from this update is for Fly to be not as much slower than SJ and SS than it is now. With the current proposed changes, Fly will end up being even slower relative to SS and SJ than it was before Afterburner was created specifically to address that gap.

[Sovera]

18 minutes ago, Bopper said:

I'm so glad we're spending pages on patchnote feedback over getting to mission doors a few seconds later than others. And here I am using Mission Teleporter and Team Teleporter with Ninja Run as my travel power and not noticing I'm failing my teammates.

When the patch notes -are- about travel powers having feedback on them is not something I find weird myself.

[CaptainLupis]

17 minutes ago, Bopper said:

I'm so glad we're spending pages on patchnote feedback over getting to mission doors a few seconds later than others. And here I am using Mission Teleporter and Team Teleporter with Ninja Run as my travel power and not noticing I'm failing my teammates.

They talk about you behind your back though, you should hear some of the things they call you! 😛

 

Can you use the mission/team TP to get to the new badge tips? Now that would be handy for exploration badges when I'm feeling lazy.

[Bopper]

14 minutes ago, Sovera said:

But the paradigm that Fly is da bestest and laziest travel power is incredibly outdated when all other travel powers have their shortcomings easily solved by a minuscule sum and a click.

I fully agree with the points you made as it pertains to Live. I would NEVER take Fly on live as it was replaceable with a jet pack. Give me Hover, Air Superiority, Afterburner, Jet Pack and Jump Pack please, I'll be hitting that 87.95 mph without breaking a sweat and will do so without taking the namesake power of the pool. The fact I was doing that was a problem for Fly, as it should not be that way.

 

This update fixes that. Now, Fly (or Mystic Flight) is the only way you will be able to get to 87.95 mph. No more Jet Pack getting Afterburner to achieve it. So now, once again, Fly is the easiest travel power to take while hitting speeds other travel powers can't match through P2W purchases. Super Speed and Super Leap will fix their hang-time through a 58.63 mph jet pack while Fly can zoom by and show off with its occasional 102.26 mph Afterburner.

Edited March 15, 2021 by Bopper

[Bopper]

3 minutes ago, Bopper said:

I fully agree with the points you made as it pertains to Live. I would NEVER take Fly on live as it was replaceable with a jet pack. Give me Hover, Air Superiority, Afterburner, Jet Pack and Jump Pack please, I'll be hitting that 87.95 mph without breaking a sweat and will do so without taking the namesake power of the pool. The fact I was doing that was a problem for Fly, as it should not be that way.

 

This update fixes that. Now, Fly (or Mystic Flight) is the only way you will be able to get to 87.95 mph. No more Jet Pack getting Afterburner to achieve it. So now, once again, Fly is the easiest travel power to take while hitting speeds other travel powers can't match through P2W purchases. Super Speed and Super Leap will fix their hang-time through a 58.63 mph jet pack while Fly can zoom by and show off with its occasional 102.26 mph Afterburner.

Shoot...I would take Group Fly over Fly, now that I remember it (still didn't, but I would have, as it has more utility on Live than Fly)

[Doc_Scorpion]

54 minutes ago, QuiJon said:

First off i am not sure i have ever had a door at the top of a building

There's more to the game than mission doors...  Badge hunting and street sweeping will also take you to the rooftops.  Rooftops are also often a "safe zone" from ground level spawns.

And that's setting aside the zones with vertical obstacles and barriers to surface level transit - The Hollows, Steel Canyon, Boomtown, Skyway City, Striga Isle, Terra Volta, Faultline, Talos Island, Founder's Falls, the Rikti War Zone...  And that's just blueside.  (It's been a long time since I spent much time Redside, but I recall vertical travel being handy there too.)

And that's setting aside the advantage Flight offers of being able to hit autorun and go to the kitchen for a refill while traveling.  Or to simply hover in mid air fair out of reach of any aggro.
 

 

35 minutes ago, QuiJon said:

And this happened ALL THE TIME back on live before afterburner was added. I could be on teams of 8 all day and be lucky if i saw one other flier because it was considered to slow.

I never encountered that on Live, and I sure as heck don't encounter it on HC.  Flight is (and was) far and away the most popular travel power choice I see.  

And I doubt the changes in this Page will make much difference to that.  Even with the changes/upgrades to Super Jump and Super Speed, Flight still has an enormous number of advantages.  (It's the only travel power that absolutely, unquestionably allows for one hundred percent safe point-to-point transit.)  Obsessing over arriving at a mission door fifteen seconds later than everyone else is just pointless nitpicking.

[arthurh35353]

Just now, Doc_Scorpion said:

o.0  Seriously?  Are we going to go there?  I can fly across both zones absolutely safely absolutely 100% of the time without even trying.  If you choose to fly too low and get popped by a sniper - that's a consequence of your choice, not a failure of the power.

You were the one stating it is 100% safe. That is not actually a true fact.

[theDarkeOne]

1 hour ago, QuiJon said:

Your fox newsing the numbers. Look at the beta, the speed caps for both leaping and jumping are full time caps that can be reached with as little investment as the caps for flight. The flight cap is only achievable if using afterburner, which is not ALWAYS going to be available. The real flight cap is 87.5 mph. SO if AB only last 30 seconds that means you can travel .9 miles before it turns off for 1 minute. .9 miles is less then halt the distance to cross IP or Talos island. So while your AB turns off, speedsters and leapers get to keep their cap bonuses.

 

On current live 87.5 requires alot of investment but leaves you 5-6mph behind the speedsters and leapers, still 3rd but not by alot. Now if you wanted to say that AB was still a toggle, still self effecting only, and capped you at 102 and maybe give leaping another 5 percent speed cap, that would be much closer to a equal boost to all travel powers that kept them in closer relation to how they now work but increased travel speed over all for everyone. 

 

But it isnt a fair comparison to say that the investment and net results are fair when one power will lose roughly 15mph for one third of the time you are in the air. 

I like how everyone overlooked the political commentary. . .

Anyways, was just on beta and the changes - across the board - are pretty nifty. Is something faster than something else. . . Yes. . .

Should it be. . . YES!

Do you seriously want every travel power to be equal?!?!? And to what end?!?! What does that accomplish?

Seriously, this isnt game breaking stuff. . . Heck, this is a game. . . You are cnn'ing the fun out of it. 😉

[Infinitum]

16 minutes ago, arthurh35353 said:

You were the one stating it is 100% safe. That is not actually a true fact.

Please, back in the good ole days I've hiked many a level 1 to portal Corp to level in the battle maiden map, and that wasnt an issue - flying over head is 100% safe unless you stop moving and well that really isn't the powers fault.

[Captain Citadel]

6 minutes ago, theDarkeOne said:

Do you seriously want every travel power to be equal?!?!? And to what end?!?! What does that accomplish?

I think what they're asking for is to have equal or slightly reduced disparity between travel powers as we have now. The proposed changes will leave Flight at least as far behind Speed and Leaping as it was before Afterburner was created specifically to try to reduce the huge gap between flight speed and running/jumping speeds.

But it seems the present consensus against this proposal amounts to "Your travel power is the easiest one to use, so sit down, shut up and be happy that Fly is faster on Beta than it is on Live." The fact that Fly's speed relative to Super Speed on Live has gone down in Beta is apparently immaterial, and we're not allowed to be unhappy about that.

[Wavicle]

Because the absolute performance is so high now that the Relative performance is no longer relevant.

[Captain Citadel]

5 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

Because the absolute performance is so high now that the Relative performance is no longer relevant.

Lagging behind Super Speed by 18 mph all the time, and 35 mph two-thirds of the time feels pretty relevant to me. That's a significantly wider disparity than the current flight speed vs. run speed caps. It's awesome that everyone with a full travel power gets to go faster, but I don't want to be lagging even further behind. Travel powers don't need to be perfectly equal, but they should be more or less in line with each other.

[Bopper]

6 minutes ago, Captain Citadel said:

I think what they're asking for is to have equal or slightly reduced disparity between travel powers as we have now. The proposed changes will leave Flight at least as far behind Speed and Leaping as it was before Afterburner was created specifically to try to reduce the huge gap between flight speed and running/jumping speeds.

But it seems the present consensus against this proposal amounts to "Your travel power is the easiest one to use, so sit down, shut up and be happy that Fly is faster on Beta than it is on Live." The fact that Fly's speed relative to Super Speed on Live has gone down in Beta is apparently immaterial, and we're not allowed to be unhappy about that.

You're looking at it through the eyes of raw number disparity, which is not how you want to look at it. If I told you one power goes the speed of light while the other goes 30 mph slower than the speed of light...would you care?

 

You want to look at the ratios. Here is a quick breakdown of Live versus Page 2 numbers:

 

LIVE:

Standard Run Cap: 92.5 mph

Standard Jump Cap: 78.18 mph (85% of Run Cap)

Standard Fly Cap: 58.63 mph (63% of Run Cap)

Takeoff Cap: 92.5 mph (100% of Run Cap)
Afterburner Cap: 87.95 mph (95% of Run Cap)

 

Page 2:

Standard Enhanced Run Cap: 120.24 mph

Standard Enhanced Jump Cap: 101.8 mph (85% of Run Cap)

Standard Enhanced Fly Cap: 87.95 mph (73% of Run Cap)

 

Takeoff Cap: 110.39 mph (92% of Run Cap)
Afterburner Cap: 102.27 mph (85% of Run Cap)

 

What you'll notice, the enhanced cap ratio for Jump stayed the same as Live, while the enhanced cap ratio for Fly improved by 10 percentage points (15% ratio improvement). As for the Live caps for Takeoff and Afterburner, they honestly should not have been so close to Super Speed. The fact that it now lands as 92% and 85% for Takeoff and Afterburner, respectively, is in my opinion a good landing spot. Now, if CPH wants to up it to 95% and 90%, respectively, I would not oppose. 
 

[Wavicle]

2 minutes ago, Captain Citadel said:

Lagging behind Super Speed by 18 mph all the time, and 35 mph two-thirds of the time feels pretty relevant to me. That's a significantly wider disparity than the current flight speed vs. run speed caps. It's awesome that everyone with a full travel power gets to go faster, but I don't want to be lagging even further behind. Travel powers don't need to be perfectly equal, but they should be more or less in line with each other.

It's not. Because in practice you're not going to be doing any lagging unless you're still playing on the machine you used back in the NCSoft days. You're looking at the numbers and not the ingame reality, where in fact the only place you can go for LONG enough for the difference to be noticeable is in the Shadow Shard where you will beat the SS and SJ folks every time.

[gameboy1234]

On 3/13/2021 at 7:13 AM, damienray said:

Use of the "server tray". Will there be an option to add the power icon (ie: Afterburner, Speed Phase) to our regular trays and it greys out when not available? I work with it, but not a fan of the pop-up server tray powers and try to, personally, avoid them. Thanks 🙂

 

Group Fly - love this!! My MM loves you!

I just want to nth this, squared.  This would be a super option to get rid of those annoying extra trays that we can't do anything with.

 

[Wavicle]

Just now, gameboy1234 said:

I just want to nth this, squared.  This would be a super option to get rid of those annoying extra trays that we can't do anything with.

 

Null The gull will turn off the server trays for you.

[TygerDarkstorm]

1 minute ago, Wavicle said:

Null The gull will turn off the server trays for you.

Regarding this, if you do this currently in beta with the new server tray powers, can you still use the powers? I tried dragging double jump down onto my regular bars and it kept disappearing from there when I zoned in and out of a mission.

[gameboy1234]

On 3/13/2021 at 7:14 AM, Gorgar said:

I'd like for that to be selectable too.  I like both visual effects and would use one or the other, depending on character.

Want to +1 this as well.  Personally I hate being invisible because then no one can see my costume.  Having a slider for how invisible you are would be ideal, but even a click button to toggle between "Really invisible" and "Not too invisible" would be ok.

[Arcanum]

Okay, time to take a breather, everyone.
 

There are lots of opinions being tossed around. All feedback provided by a player who has tested the changes and shares their experience is valid feedback, even if you disagree with it.  The point of the thread is to provide your feedback/experience with the changes, let's try and stay focused on that as opposed to attacking other players' experiences.

Or don't, but I'll likely just hide your post.

Carry on!