Focused Feedback: Travel Power Updates (Build 1)

[Mr Isotope]

I see its all getting a bit heated, personally I love fly i take it more than any travel power. The issue with the changes from what im seeing are fly is slower than the others but if you invest a few extra slots it gets you near the cap where the others need no extra investment slotwise. This seems unfair as what i read and hear are most builds are extremely tight for slotting. Lets say you leave fly as is but to get to the new caps for ss and sj you need to allocate the SAME investment slotwise as fly. Would this seem fair. I only use the initial slot that fly gives you so what about that the single fly slot and the single afterburner slot takes you to cap that a compromise??

[Bopper]

23 minutes ago, Mr Isotope said:

I see its all getting a bit heated, personally I love fly i take it more than any travel power. The issue with the changes from what im seeing are fly is slower than the others but if you invest a few extra slots it gets you near the cap where the others need no extra investment slotwise. This seems unfair as what i read and hear are most builds are extremely tight for slotting. Lets say you leave fly as is but to get to the new caps for ss and sj you need to allocate the SAME investment slotwise as fly. Would this seem fair. I only use the initial slot that fly gives you so what about that the single fly slot and the single afterburner slot takes you to cap that a compromise??

That seems to be a huge misconception. On Live, Fly easily hits its cap with no investment however that cap is only 58.63 mph. To achieve significant speed, you needed to take a 2nd power (Afterburner) then invest some slotting in Afterburner to get you to the 87.95 mph speed cap.

 

Now, you can take Fly by itself, invest 2 +5 IOs into it and you will achieve the 87.95 mph speed cap (Correction: It would get you to 87.58 mph by itself). Then, you can use Afterburner to hit 102.26 mph. That is one power and one extra slot, as opposed to two powers and atleast one extra slot.

Edited March 16, 2021 by Bopper

[Captain Citadel]

15 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

Feedback was given complaining that the changes Increase the disparity between the travel powers. Back and forth ensued.

Ultimately numbers were posted showing that in fact the disparity is less on beta. There's nothing more to be said on this topic.

Snipping this from @Bopper's post because I can't figure out how to quote two posts on two different pages in one post:

 

Quote

 

LIVE:

Standard Run Cap: 92.5 mph

Standard Jump Cap: 78.18 mph (85% of Run Cap)

Standard Fly Cap: 58.63 mph (63% of Run Cap)

Takeoff Cap: 92.5 mph (100% of Run Cap)
Afterburner Cap: 87.95 mph (95% of Run Cap)

 

Page 2:

Standard Enhanced Run Cap: 120.24 mph

Standard Enhanced Jump Cap: 101.8 mph (85% of Run Cap)

Standard Enhanced Fly Cap: 87.95 mph (73% of Run Cap)

 

Takeoff Cap: 110.39 mph (92% of Run Cap)
Afterburner Cap: 102.27 mph (85% of Run Cap)

 

The disparity is not less, it's greater. The numbers don't lie. Afterburner is now 10% slower than the run speed cap in Beta compared to Live. Fly's speed cap is closer to the run speed cap than it was, but still not close enough to be comparable. And now Afterburner only works for 30 seconds, with a 60 second recharge. That's a significant loss, if you ask me. But I keep being told it's meaningless.

[Wavicle]

1 minute ago, Captain Citadel said:

Fly's speed cap is closer to the run speed cap than it was, but still not close enough to be comparable.

In other words, the disparity is LESS, just not as much less as you would like.

The numbers don't lie but you can misrepresent them to try to make them say something the don't.

 

[Bopper]

Here I am using Fly + Afterburner, I slotted 3 SOs for 94.93% enhancement because I was too lazy to make 2 +5 IOs for 95.9% enhancement. I have no enhancements in Swift and no set bonuses. Those 3 SOs are the only thing slotted.

 

Here I am flying without AB, I am just a shade under the cap. If I did the Two +5 IOs I would've hit 87.58 mph (almost capped with no other contributions).

Edited March 16, 2021 by Bopper

[Bopper]

I hope that previous post puts to bed any commentary on Fly requiring more investment to hit the Enhanced Cap (87.95) and Afterburner Cap (102.27) compared to other travel powers. One extra slot is hardly a crime, and it is far less investment than what needs to be done on Live to hit that same Enhanced Cap (87.95).

Edited March 16, 2021 by Bopper

[Wavicle]

6 minutes ago, Captain Citadel said:

Afterburner is now 10% slower than the run speed cap in Beta compared to Live.

And now Afterburner only works for 30 seconds, with a 60 second recharge. That's a significant loss, if you ask me. But I keep being told it's meaningless.

It is meaningless because you are comparing Live Afterburner with Beta Afterburner and they are two very different things. It is a textbook cases of apples and oranges.

[Duck-Smokes-Quack]

Astonished to see this thread so heated 

The one thing ive always long for were changes to travel powers (my no.1 thing was always for SS to run on water)
Its great to see the tweaks


IMO 

• Fly - brain dead to use, unmatched mobility should always be the slowest. I thought that was obvious but apparntly not
• Jump - is very active but also such nice mobility that should always come in 3rd
• Super Speed - least mobility and so rightly is the fastest and always should be since the vertical sacrifice is so great, very active like SJ since few zones are like IP where you can just set and forget autorun
• Teleport - its own special thing - it used to be by far the most "difficult" to use and had/has the highest potential in return. Maybe the 15s hover buff is too generous? But imo TP should always be king for speed
  
   

 

I think these chanes are cool and love them - not sure why people seem so angry (mostly about fly) Fly deserves to be the slowest.

[Captain Citadel]

6 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

In other words, the disparity is LESS, just not as much less as you would like.

The numbers don't lie but you can misrepresent them to try to make them say something the don't.

 

You're saying I shouldn't be dissatisfied with this change because the gap between Fly without Afterburner and the run speed cap got smaller. The only time Fly's speed becomes close to that of Super Speed's run cap is when Afterburner is running, for 30 seconds. The rest of the time, the best most builds can afford without giving up something else is 87 mph without Afterburner. That means more than half the time, Fly is lagging behind Super Speed by 33 mph. This is a greater disparity in speed than what currently exists on live, with 100% uptime on Afterburner. Because again, currently on Live there's almost no comparison between Fly and Super Speed without it.

Just because I'll fly faster on Beta without Afterburner turned on, doesn't mean I should be happy about being 33 mph slower than Super Speed characters most of the time when I used to be just 5 mph slower all of the time. Even with Afterburner turned on, I'll be 18 mph slower. No matter how you slice it, I'm relatively a lot slower than a Super Speed character compared to how much slower I am on Live.

That's why I previously suggested a compromise: Could the changes to Afterburner be tweaked so that the 60-second CD is eliminated if you have 3 or more powers from the Flight pool? This would preserve the significant speed disparity between characters that have only taken Fly or Super Speed, while softening the blow for those of us who would like to remain invested in the Flight pool. -18 mph is a lot bigger of a gap than -5 mph, but if I had to choose, I'd rather keep 3 powers in Flight like I have on Live and suffer that -18 mph if the alternative is a -33 mph difference instead.

[Wavicle]

No, I'm saying you shouldn't be dissatisfied because you STILL go 87.95 mph all the time but now with less investment, and often you get to go 102.27 mph with NO investment, which you couldn't do at all before and how fast Super Speed goes isn't relevant to the conversation because the difference in TIME it takes to get places is barely noticeable.

[BrandX]

Never bothered me on the speed disparity on travel powers, as they made sense.  Sounds like all this is faster speed now too.

[Bopper]

3 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

No, I'm saying you shouldn't be dissatisfied because you STILL go 87.95 mph all the time but now with less investment, and often you get to go 102.27 mph with NO investment, which you couldn't do at all before and how fast Super Speed goes isn't relevant to the conversation because the difference in TIME it takes to get places is barely noticeable.

Let's not forget, Afterburner required 2 other powers to be taken and available at level 20. This only requires one power taken and is available at level 4.

[Tigraine]

1 minute ago, Bopper said:

Let's not forget, Afterburner required 2 other powers to be taken and available at level 20. This only requires one power taken and is available at level 4.

 

And I'd rather have Afterburner have its functionality restored, even with all its original requirements.

[Bopper]

1 minute ago, Tigraine said:

 

And I'd rather have Afterburner have its functionality restored, even with all its original requirements.

Noted

[Captain Citadel]

1 minute ago, Bopper said:

Let's not forget, Afterburner required 2 other powers to be taken and available at level 20. This only requires one power taken and is available at level 4.

I appreciate that aspect of the change, but that's also why I've repeatedly suggested a compromise that no one seems to want to acknowledge.

If someone is currently deeply invested in the Flight pool on Live for reasons beyond just having Afterburner, and doesn't mind continuing to give up those power slots in the Beta version, could the 30-second timer on Afterburner be conditionally removed? The Fighting pool already has a similar feature. It would be nice to have the recharge time taken off of Afterburner if you have 3 or more Flight pool powers.

[Bopper]

2 minutes ago, Captain Citadel said:

I appreciate that aspect of the change, but that's also why I've repeatedly suggested a compromise that no one seems to want to acknowledge.

If someone is currently deeply invested in the Flight pool on Live for reasons beyond just having Afterburner, and doesn't mind continuing to give up those power slots in the Beta version, could the 30-second timer on Afterburner be conditionally removed? The Fighting pool already has a similar feature. It would be nice to have the recharge time taken off of Afterburner if you have 3 or more Flight pool powers.

It's functionally possible. It's just not balanced. There is a clear design goal of making Fly a percentage capability of Run Speed, with Jump landing in the middle ground. There won't be an avenue that gives Flight permanently faster speed than Super Leap without significant costs (like how AB currently makes you OAS). You might be able to sweet talk CPH into increasing the temporary speed buffs, but I've tried and had no luck. I wish anyone else luck on that endeavor 

[twozerofoxtrot]

14 hours ago, Macchiato said:

I still really want that No/Min FX teleport option too.

 

So I'm only up to page 18 in quoting this- forgive me if it's already been addressed and I'll wipe this post but---

 

Is this a very big ask? To have new FX options for several powers? I truly don't know, but it seems like it would solve some aesthetic issues if people could:

- Choose between "stealth" and "invisibility" FX for the new combined Stealth power. (+anything else that's currently there that I'm missing)

- Choose between "magneto flight" and "superman flight" for both Hover and Fly. Seems like it would make everyone happy to have the options, and would fix the animations issue.

- Also what I quoted from Macchiato, cause there is merit here too.

 

 

 

Edited March 16, 2021 by twozerofoxtrot

[Captain Citadel]

19 minutes ago, Bopper said:

It's functionally possible. It's just not balanced. There is a clear design goal of making Fly a percentage capability of Run Speed, with Jump landing in the middle ground. There won't be an avenue that gives Flight permanently faster speed than Super Leap without significant costs (like how AB currently makes you OAS). You might be able to sweet talk CPH into increasing the temporary speed buffs, but I've tried and had no luck. I wish anyone else luck on that endeavor 

I wouldn't even mind if Super Jump got buffed to put it more firmly in the middle between Fly and Super Speed. I just think not having 100% uptime on Afterburner sucks when Fly becomes 33 mph slower than Super Speed 66% of the time.

Thing is, most people are still taking SS/SJ together, right? And even someone only taking Super Speed is still getting a Super Jump once every 4 seconds, plus 100% uptime on their new Speed Phase ability. It doesn't feel good to get an overall speed boost and then see that people with Super Speed and/or Super Jump are not just still faster, but way faster compared to my flying character than they already used to be, and now I can't even enjoy 100% uptime on my maximum speed.

If Super Jump's jump speed cap got upped to 110 mph, this would maintain the pecking order of Fly < Jump < Speed while allowing us to have full-time Afterburner back (even if we had to take 3 Flight powers to lose the 30-second recharge, I'd call that an acceptable "tax") while still having a larger difference in speeds (relative to Live) that is less than that 33 mph gap.

Edited March 16, 2021 by Captain Citadel

[Mr Isotope]

54 minutes ago, Bopper said:

Here I am using Fly + Afterburner, I slotted 3 SOs for 94.93% enhancement because I was too lazy to make 2 +5 IOs for 95.9% enhancement. I have no enhancements in Swift and no set bonuses. Those 3 SOs are the only thing slotted.

 

Here I am flying without AB, I am just a shade under the cap. If I did the Two +5 IOs I would've hit 87.58 mph (almost capped with no other contributions).

Bopper many thanks for posting this, i am happy with the way the changes are being proposed ie i get to fly faster and get a free booster, but given that 90 % of this thread is all about fly maybe its a compromise thats needed, what about doubling uptime for afterburner or halving down time. Im at work right now so my brains sort of wired into that right now. I am not trying to make things worse but it all seems focused on fly that tells me mabye we should be taking a step back and giving it another flyover/recon/whatever you want to call it. As for the binds and macros i wont even go there as i dont use them. 

[Excraft]

Only had an opportunity to test out Fly tonight, so can only comment on that one so far.

 

Objective feedback:  It seems to work as described.  I very much dislike having the pop up tray now for Afterburner

 

Subjective feedback:  I know you all don't want any kind of criticism,  but I don't like this change.  I didn't have a problem with the flight pool to begin with.  Didn't mind taking Afterburner and slotting it for the extra speed boost.  Doing that actually worked for some of my builds.  Now you're taking away a power I liked and had tuned the way I wanted and replacing it with a garbage power I don't want at all that's completely useless to me.  I don't have fly turned on in combat, never have, so Evasive Maneuvers is a total waste for me.  Afterburner having the recharge on it is badly thought out. 

 

If you wanted to make temps less attractive, then nerf the temps.  These changes are a whole lot of work for a whole lot of nothing for no real reason at all in my opinion.  This is work for works sake and not an improvement at all for me.  Please don't roll this out to live.

[Bopper]

38 minutes ago, Excraft said:

Only had an opportunity to test out Fly tonight, so can only comment on that one so far.

 

Objective feedback:  It seems to work as described.  I very much dislike having the pop up tray now for Afterburner

 

Subjective feedback:  I know you all don't want any kind of criticism,  but I don't like this change.  I didn't have a problem with the flight pool to begin with.  Didn't mind taking Afterburner and slotting it for the extra speed boost.  Doing that actually worked for some of my builds.  Now you're taking away a power I liked and had tuned the way I wanted and replacing it with a garbage power I don't want at all that's completely useless to me.  I don't have fly turned on in combat, never have, so Evasive Maneuvers is a total waste for me.  Afterburner having the recharge on it is badly thought out. 

 

If you wanted to make temps less attractive, then nerf the temps.  These changes are a whole lot of work for a whole lot of nothing for no real reason at all in my opinion.  This is work for works sake and not an improvement at all for me.  Please don't roll this out to live.

 

Let's break down what you're saying. You currently take Fly and Afterburner, and you invest slotting into Afterburner to achieve the 87.95 mph speed. I'm not sure what your third power pick is, but can I assume Hover (if you take Air Superiority, let me know)?

 

Now, you get Fly in one pick and you can achieve the same speed as Afterburner by investing one extra enhancement slot into Fly (as opposed to however you slotted Afterburner). Plus, you can temporarily go above and beyond that speed (10 mph faster than what super speed does on live) with the new sub-power Afterburner for free.

 

At this point, you can take Evasive Maneuvers if you want (or don't, you have that freedom now that your speed is all taken care of) and do whatever set bonus slotting you might have been doing with Afterburner and there would be hardly a difference. But if you so desired, you could use EM with Hover in combat (or Fly with EM) and notice how nice it is to no longer have to wait 4s for your speed to turn back on when you're attacking. You can also enjoy not getting immobilized or knocked back if that was something your character would be interested in (if you're already melee, maybe not). You can also utilize the out of combat defense to help you stealth missions or potentially dodge out of combat attacks (if ranged attackers are nearby). 

 

I appreciate the fact you like taking 3 powers to achieve speeds that can now be done with 1 power selection. Personally, I will probably utilize the 2 powers that are freed up to take other things my character might need, or I might take Air Superiority and Evasive Maneuvers and just go ham hoverblasting (well...I guess I would have to call it evasiveblasting? meh...hoverblasting it shall remain).

 

EDIT: My post is coming across as more curt than I intended, so allow me to be explicit in what I am getting lost in with your feedback. Can you tell us what it is about taking and slotting Afterburner that worked for your builds? Can you tell us what it is about Evasive Maneuvers you don't like? How I am reading it, I made some assumptions, however those assumptions could be wrong, so I am curious as to what else you're trying to say in your feedback.

 

 

Edited March 16, 2021 by Bopper

[siolfir]

Wow, my last post was messed up by somehow getting a strikethrough font selection which couldn't be cleared, so I'll just summarize:

1. Stop arguing with other posters about their opinions; they are entitled to them.
2. Conversely, if you have already posted your concerns for the devs to read, stop arguing with those who disgree,

There is almost as much noise - if not more - as the EM feedback thread from people wanting perma-fast-ET about the flight speed cap, with what is likely the same resolution, and @Jimmy has already stated that part of the changes was to align travel power speeds in the order the dev team believes that they should be, so if that's your complain you have been heard and answered. Just because you don't like the answer (as I wasn't happy about the variable speed ET) doesn't provide justification to flood the thread with so much noise that it's impossible to filter out any other concerns others may have.

[Starforge]

So in an attempt to move one from the seemingly endless discussion about Afterburner, I did some testing of Super Jump in the Shadow Shard last night.

I should preface by saying my SJ character has a +5 boosted single generic Jump enhancement in Hurdle and one +5 boosted Unbounded Leap in Super Jump. In the attached image I tried to see how far I could get in one leap using Double Jump and as you can see, I got pretty dang close to the Storm Palace (the arrow pointing to where I started to fall at the end of the first leap). Unfortunately, with the elevation of the entrance portal compared to the Storm Palace, you won't be able to actually make it inside but it was an interesting test nonetheless.

Edited March 16, 2021 by Starforge

[Starforge]

In a separate test in the Cascade Archipelago, I was able to make it from the entrance portal to the top island in the cluster in the image below in one leap with I believe one activation of Double Jump.

It took two activations of Double Jump to make it to the northern cluster of islands from the entrance portal. (Though I was still well below the Tyrant's Rock marker due to elevation of both the entrance island and that particular island.)

 

I should add that I did eventually get to Tyrant’s Rock and it took two activations of Double Jump to get back to the entrance portal to the zone in one leap with purposely falling since the sheer elevation of that marker will have you overshoot the entrance portal island.

Edited March 16, 2021 by Starforge

[Monos King]

6 minutes ago, Excraft said:

 

You must've missed where I said I actually tested the powers and said I don't like the change.  I don't have fly turned on in combat, so Evasive is totally useless for me.  You must've missed that part too.  I didn't say anything about flight speed.  I just said I like the way it works now and don't see the need for a change.

Wait so how were you using it before which can't be replicated by evasive? The only difference I noticed was the defense buff on evasive not being good for protection from combat (as unlike afterburner the defense on that turns off if you're attacked).