A Bit Disappointed Devs. Here is Why.

[Solarverse]

Don't take this in a harsh way, I just feel a bit defeated at this moment in time. I don't play much these days, I log on for a small bit, might run a mission or two and log out. There are many reasons for this, but that's not what this is about, this is more of an incident that reminded me as to one of the reasons why I don't play much these days.

 

So I always loved the sound effects for what is now called Dynamo. I know some people hated that the sound never died off, so to help fix that for them so that I can keep the sound for me and those of us who like it, I created a mod that ANYBODY can install that actually gives them a very very quiet version of that. We even have ways of making it silent so that they don't have to hear it if that isn't good enough for them.

I log on my Elec Blaster today and noticed that the sound effects fades out now. It honestly was not needed Devs, this is one of the primary reasons I started making sound mods, so that people can have what they want without you all nerfing the sounds for everyone. I really wish you all would stop nerfing sound effects when you have players who were completely ready to make custom mods for players who took issue with them.

I just feel pretty defeated when I take time (and it does take time if you want your mods to be good) to create mods for the community just to have you guys nerf those sounds anyway. It's nothing more than a reminder to me why I don't play so much anymore. Really wish you all would have left that sound effect alone.  😞

Edited March 17, 2021 by Solarverse

[SaintD]

The majority should mod out the annoying sound instead of the minority modding to keep the annoying sound?

.....how about no. Mod it back in if you want.

[Solarverse]

30 minutes ago, SaintD said:

The majority should mod out the annoying sound instead of the minority modding to keep the annoying sound?

.....how about no. Mod it back in if you want.

 

Majority?

It can't be modded back in. We have no control over sounds that fade out. And like, it takes literally 30 seconds to mod the sound if a player doesn't like it. Really...

 

 

Edited March 17, 2021 by Solarverse

[Solarverse]

This was actually not a suggestion or idea. It was an open letter to the Devs. Not quite sure why this was moved from General Forums to the Suggestion Forums. I did not want this to become a suggestion and ideas war back and forth between people like idea threads usually end up being. @GM Korvin can we get this moved back or is that an action that can't be undone?

Edited March 17, 2021 by Solarverse

[Vanex]

hello,

 it happened to me some time ago: running a beast mastery / nature affinity MM got few tells from a teammate to stop using my powers (Call Swarm maybe) because of annoying sound to them.

 

I'm ok with some option to avoid listening other teammates sound-effects

 

[Snarky]

I think it should just continue forever, for any character that has heard it.  That way...they always know...yeah.

 

seriously though.  There are some really troubling sounding sets.  Sonic Blast?  It sounds like it was created by a guy addicted to OxyContin and Speed Metal.  It is so intrusive just to be on a team with it.  And the set?  Unusable to me.

Edited March 17, 2021 by Snarky

[TemporalVileTerror]

This topic can't be fully discussed without broaching potentially political commentary . . . but . . . 

 

One reason we are seeing trends to accommodate a threshold of minimal barriers these days is the spirit of things like diversity and maximizing accessibility.

The reasons for -that- might be cynical, misguided, or personal . . . but there's also math to back it up as the most beneficial in the long term.

 

While efforts to obtain broad accessibility don't always hit the mark, and there are costs associated with everything, most of the time choices like these have been examined from cost effectiveness and resource allocation viewpoints (somewhere on a scale of "informally and haphazardly" to "thoroughly, rigorously, and scientifically").

 

The short of it:  The Devs are trying to do the right thing.  They won't always have the time, energy, and resources to do it . . . so they try to do the next best thing.

That means some of us have to experience sacrifices to the things we want or enjoy to benefit people who would otherwise be harmed or denied access.

And mathematically . . . the opportunity for people to play this game without barriers is well worth the minor cost of a few of us being disappointed.

[TemporalVileTerror]

Also (since my other post could potentially be seen as walking a tightrope, and may go "poof") . . .

I believe your thread was moved to this board because it constitutes Feedback, @Solarverse.  Just a guess.

 

Edited March 17, 2021 by TemporalVileTerror
Typo correction.

[Solarverse]

31 minutes ago, Snarky said:

I think it should just continue forever, for any character that has heard it.  That way...they always know...yeah.

 

seriously though.  There are some really troubling sounding sets.  Sonic Blast?  It sounds like it was created by a guy addicted to OxyContin and Speed Metal.  It is so intrusive just to be on a team with it.  And the set?  Unusable to me.

 

This is why I have created Mods...I actually created a sound mod for that very set.

[Solarverse]

30 minutes ago, TemporalVileTerror said:

This topic can't be fully discussed without broaching potentially political commentary . . . but . . . 

 

One reason we are seeing trends to accommodate a threshold of minimal barriers these days is the spirit of things like diversity and maximizing accessibility.

The reasons for -that- might be cynical, misguided, or personal . . . but there's also math to back it up as the most beneficial in the long term.

 

While efforts to obtain broad accessibility don't always hit the mark, and there are costs associated with everything, most of the time choices like these have been examined from cost effectiveness and resource allocation viewpoints (somewhere on a scale of "informally and haphazardly" to "thoroughly, rigorously, and scientifically").

 

The short of it:  The Devs are trying to do the right thing.  They won't always have the time, energy, and resources to do it . . . so they try to do the next best thing.

That means some of us have to experience sacrifices to the things we want or enjoy to benefit people who would otherwise be harmed or denied access.

And mathematically . . . the opportunity for people to play this game without barriers is well worth the minor cost of a few of us being disappointed.

 

If I had not put in place a mod that already addressed that particular power (and many many many more) it would not be an issue for me. However, my mod was an absolute masterpiece if I do say so myself. Sadly, now the sound fades out and all that work was for nothing.

The thing is, I make mods so that players who hate the sounds can have a customized sound or I can make them not have any sound at all. I have spent countless hours making mods just for this very reason...I mean, literally countless hours. I have stayed up all night on more nights than I can count..to a point that my wife and I would even have words with each other over it because it was upsetting her that I wasn't coming to bed. I did this so that not only the community could have what they wanted, by having loud sounds toned down or changed, but also so that those of us who loved those sounds could continue to enjoy them.

I understand sacrifice...but to be honest, as much as I feel this game has sacrificed since its launch, this game just simply has finally broke the mark of, "It's gone too far" for me to want to continue to play anymore...and that is sad, considering that this game was my favorite game of all time. It's good that "the majority" of players got what they wanted...sadly, I am left with little choice but to pack up my bags and leave.  😞

[Solarverse]

42 minutes ago, Vanex said:

hello,

 it happened to me some time ago: running a beast mastery / nature affinity MM got few tells from a teammate to stop using my powers (Call Swarm maybe) because of annoying sound to them.

 

I'm ok with some option to avoid listening other teammates sound-effects

 

 

That's the problem, this sound change was not made an option. Options existed, I made those options myself and made them easily available to anyone who wanted them. It literally takes 30 seconds to download my mods thanks to @The Philotic Knight and his CoH Modder Tool...this change to make Dynamo fade out was completely not needed...like at all. I had a mod in place to replace that sound with a sound effect that you could barely hear. Now, after a few short seconds, you can't hear it at all...you see the electricity scattering all around you, but it is dead silent now. The work that I put in to try and make this community happy so that they could have what they want without affecting players who want it...was all for nothing. I just wish the Devs would stop doing this type of thing....especially now that ALL sounds in game have a ton of modders out there who are more than willing to customize a sound bite for players so that we can preserve the core sounds of this game for everyone else.

[Parabola]

36 minutes ago, Solarverse said:

 

If I had not put in place a mod that already addressed that particular power (and many many many more) it would not be an issue for me. However, my mod was an absolute masterpiece if I do say so myself. Sadly, now the sound fades out and all that work was for nothing.

The thing is, I make mods so that players who hate the sounds can have a customized sound or I can make them not have any sound at all. I have spent countless hours making mods just for this very reason...I mean, literally countless hours. I have stayed up all night on more nights than I can count..to a point that my wife and I would even have words with each other over it because it was upsetting her that I wasn't coming to bed. I did this so that not only the community could have what they wanted, by having loud sounds toned down or changed, but also so that those of us who loved those sounds could continue to enjoy them.

I understand sacrifice...but to be honest, as much as I feel this game has sacrificed since its launch, this game just simply has finally broke the mark of, "It's gone too far" for me to want to continue to play anymore...and that is sad, considering that this game was my favorite game of all time. It's good that "the majority" of players got what they wanted...sadly, I am left with little choice but to pack up my bags and leave.  😞

Surely the risk of a mod being made obsolete by game changes is inherent in the mod creation process? Particularly when writing mods for a game that is in active development as this one now is again? I sympathise with the feeling of lost work but it seems an odd thing to be thinking of quitting over. In my day job I have had software solutions I've been very proud of rendered obsolete by wider system changes but it doesn't change the fact that it was good work at the time.

 

I can understand why the devs would prefer to go with solutions that in their opinion suit the majority without expecting people to apply mods themselves. It's a shame you are unable to simply substitute the looping sound file back in for your particular enjoyment though. Perhaps raise it with the devs as a request if you haven't already done so?

[Solarverse]

11 minutes ago, parabola said:

Surely the risk of a mod being made obsolete by game changes is inherent in the mod creation process? Particularly when writing mods for a game that is in active development as this one now is again? I sympathise with the feeling of lost work but it seems an odd thing to be thinking of quitting over. In my day job I have had software solutions I've been very proud of rendered obsolete by wider system changes but it doesn't change the fact that it was good work at the time.

 

I can understand why the devs would prefer to go with solutions that in their opinion suit the majority without expecting people to apply mods themselves. It's a shame you are unable to simply substitute the looping sound file back in for your particular enjoyment though. Perhaps raise it with the devs as a request if you haven't already done so?

 

That isn't exactly the point though. The point is that it was a change that was not needed. As far as the looping question...yeah, I asked...no, I begged for that a looooong time ago. It got a bit of support from the players, but the Devs never even blinked an eye at it.

I can see where this thread is going though, so I'm going to bow out. You all take care and thanks for the input.

Edited March 17, 2021 by Solarverse

[golstat2003]

2 hours ago, TemporalVileTerror said:

This topic can't be fully discussed without broaching potentially political commentary . . . but . . . 

 

One reason we are seeing trends to accommodate a threshold of minimal barriers these days is the spirit of things like diversity and maximizing accessibility.

The reasons for -that- might be cynical, misguided, or personal . . . but there's also math to back it up as the most beneficial in the long term.

 

While efforts to obtain broad accessibility don't always hit the mark, and there are costs associated with everything, most of the time choices like these have been examined from cost effectiveness and resource allocation viewpoints (somewhere on a scale of "informally and haphazardly" to "thoroughly, rigorously, and scientifically").

 

The short of it:  The Devs are trying to do the right thing.  They won't always have the time, energy, and resources to do it . . . so they try to do the next best thing.

That means some of us have to experience sacrifices to the things we want or enjoy to benefit people who would otherwise be harmed or denied access.

And mathematically . . . the opportunity for people to play this game without barriers is well worth the minor cost of a few of us being disappointed.

 

Not looking into accessibility (ADA) can also (and has) result in lawsuits.

[golstat2003]

1 hour ago, TemporalVileTerror said:

Also (since my other post could potentially be seen as walking a tightrope, and may go "poof") . . .

I believe your thread was moved to this board because it constitutes Feedback, @Solarverse.  Just a guess.

 

 

Correct, the forum section name is Suggestions & Feedback

Edited March 17, 2021 by golstat2003

[Snarky]

1 hour ago, Solarverse said:

 

If I had not put in place a mod that already addressed that particular power (and many many many more) it would not be an issue for me. However, my mod was an absolute masterpiece if I do say so myself. Sadly, now the sound fades out and all that work was for nothing.

The thing is, I make mods so that players who hate the sounds can have a customized sound or I can make them not have any sound at all. I have spent countless hours making mods just for this very reason...I mean, literally countless hours. I have stayed up all night on more nights than I can count..to a point that my wife and I would even have words with each other over it because it was upsetting her that I wasn't coming to bed. I did this so that not only the community could have what they wanted, by having loud sounds toned down or changed, but also so that those of us who loved those sounds could continue to enjoy them.

I understand sacrifice...but to be honest, as much as I feel this game has sacrificed since its launch, this game just simply has finally broke the mark of, "It's gone too far" for me to want to continue to play anymore...and that is sad, considering that this game was my favorite game of all time. It's good that "the majority" of players got what they wanted...sadly, I am left with little choice but to pack up my bags and leave.  😞

I am going to be as non Snarky as I can be.  YMMV

 

I do not use addons.  I did finally start using the map overlay on live to find badges.  i got it here as well.  But I cant get it to update and so any new badges I hunt through coordinates.

 

I do not use Discord.  Everytime i try it is a nightmare.  I wont go into details but a thousand dollar comp and a hundred fifty dollar set of headphones should just work...right?  Evidently freaking not. I recently joined a big SG and will have to try to get Discord working again.  I am really looking forward to that.  (That was sarcasm, not snark)

 

I am not dumb.  In my past I have even studied mathematics up through multi variable calculus.  I still struggle to put IKEA furniture together and everything to do with this comp.

 

In short, thank you for making MODs.  I am sure they are great and many will find them useful.  I won't even touch them.  Not unless you are willing to pay me by the hour to figure them out.  Even then....prob going to cost you a bit lol.  

 

My point....not everyone is good at modifying things or even want to.  The Devs are trying to make the game a comfortable place for everyone.  Not everyone will like it.  I still am charging the hill of letting Blasters be truly ranged.  Wish me luck.

 

I am sorry this change was really bad for you.  I honestly am.  People who like the game and play are tops in my book.  I am sorry you cannot mod it back to the way you wanted it.  That does seem crappy.  To have something you like and then it gets messed with.  But I have lived through the great Brute nerf.  Recently discovered Rune of protection, modified my main build to cram it on.  Heard they have a nerf for it planned.  Game goes on.  Hey! You just ran over my toe!  "Progress" the voice shouted back.

 

 

[AboveTheChemist]

Just to be clear, are you saying you can't mod it back in because:

1. You have the original sound file (for the sound you prefer) but it doesn't work the same way it used to because of the change the devs made, or
2. You don't have access to the original sound file any more, or
3. Some other reason I have not considered.

Because if the answer is 2, I have a modest archive of pigg files from a few points in HC's history and would not mind taking a look through them to see if I have the version of the file you need.

[Solarverse]

20 minutes ago, AboveTheChemist said:

Just to be clear, are you saying you can't mod it back in because:

1. You have the original sound file (for the sound you prefer) but it doesn't work the same way it used to because of the change the devs made, or
2. You don't have access to the original sound file any more, or
3. Some other reason I have not considered.

Because if the answer is 2, I have a modest archive of pigg files from a few points in HC's history and would not mind taking a look through them to see if I have the version of the file you need.

 

Number 1. Nothing can be done about it. The only people who have any control over how long a loop file plays are the Devs.

[Nerio72]

I can understand how frustrated you are because of this, but I'm sure there are reasons for why they did change it. I can only guess what those are, but players annoyance, and people with hearing disabilities is my assumption.

 

You've said many times that you've created mods to address this, however people who don't look at the forums would have no idea. Some people are probably not even aware you CAN mod the game. Some people may not trust files that aren't "official". Some people don't know how. And some may just not want to.

 

I've never met you but from what I've seen on these forums you are a very helpful and nice person and it would be a shame to lose you over this. I hope you can find a way to stick around. Best wishes...

[Greycat]

So... just driving this (maybe forking part of the conversation off) in a different direction...

 

How can COH be made more mod friendly? Creation, testing, adding/removing, etc. We have some third party tools now, of course. But I'd be kind of interested from both the dev (or modder) and user perspective. I, obviously, don't know how much *work* would be involved (I tend to assume "quite a bit,") so honestly I'd bypass that just to start with "this would be nice/useful."

[Snarky]

13 minutes ago, Greycat said:

So... just driving this (maybe forking part of the conversation off) in a different direction...

 

How can COH be made more mod friendly? Creation, testing, adding/removing, etc. We have some third party tools now, of course. But I'd be kind of interested from both the dev (or modder) and user perspective. I, obviously, don't know how much *work* would be involved (I tend to assume "quite a bit,") so honestly I'd bypass that just to start with "this would be nice/useful."

I can guess at this a bit (and I have to as I am ignorant of all the tech 🙂 ) There are many things that are possible in the game, but everything takes time.  I am currently (and have been since the live forums 🙂 ) tilting at the windmill of getting more ranged Blaster set ups.  But i generally try to avoid suggesting things that would add more work on the current team of volunteer Devs.  They do a great job.  But they do it for the reward of being part of the community.  and life is busy.  

[Greycat]

13 minutes ago, Snarky said:

I can guess at this a bit (and I have to as I am ignorant of all the tech 🙂 ) There are many things that are possible in the game, but everything takes time.  I am currently (and have been since the live forums 🙂 ) tilting at the windmill of getting more ranged Blaster set ups.  But i generally try to avoid suggesting things that would add more work on the current team of volunteer Devs.  They do a great job.  But they do it for the reward of being part of the community.  and life is busy.  

 

Not even going there. (I thought I sort of explained that.) More like what would make modding and such easier for both modders and those who want to use them. Something might come up that is "Oh.. you know what, they were actually looking into that on live and there are these hooks available, that can be done quickly" easy, for all we know.

 

This is just throwing out "what would you like to see?"

[AerialAssault]

I'm sorry that the Devs did not personally consult you on these matters.

 

[Solarverse]

@Greycat

To answer the question on how to make it easier for the players, I mean, it has already been made insanely easy for the players, all the way down to a tutorial video and a program that has ALL the mods built right in to it and it installs and uninstalls the mods for you. The tutorial that I mentioned is a tutorial on where to download the program and how to use it...and trust me, once you have the program installed, it literally takes a whole 30 seconds or less to add mods to the game. It was made easy like this so that players would stop requesting to the Devs that sounds be removed, or toned down or faded out. If there is a sound you hate or just want the volume decreased, chances are, it's in there. If you want new sounds to replace a sound you hate, (looking at you Beam Rifle) it's in there. People even have expressed a dislike for Sonic...well guess what, I have a banshee mod just for that. I mean, there is absolutely not reason that anyone should be requesting sound nerfs anymore...these mods are easily available and a 10 year old can install them...I know, I tested my ten year old to see if she could figure it out. It's that damn easy. The whole purpose of me making those mods, was to A: Give people better quality sounds to replace sounds that were poor quality and volume control of sounds people dislike...toggles being the main culprit.

The place to go to find the mods shouldn't be hard either, I mean it's right on the front page (and has never left the front page) of the Tools, Utilities and Downloads section. It can be found here....
 

The Devs don't have to do anything. In fact, all those sound nerfs made since the beginning of this game can even be turned back on now that we can give the players customized sounds at customized volumes. Nerfing sounds for City of Heroes in 2021 is just absolutely not necessary. It was made so easy that when I see players say things like, "I can't be troubled to take the time to download mods" I just shake my head and face palm. To steal a line from Geico, "It's so simple even a caveman can do it!"

Edited March 18, 2021 by Solarverse

[TemporalVileTerror]

I apologize, @Solarverse.  I misinterpreted your initial post, allowing our past conversations to pre-emptively bias my perception of what you were saying.

I'm sorry.

 

And . . . I'm disappointed too.

Not with that particular sound effect, nor with the lack of interest in your mods or @The Philotic Knight's . . . which are both lamentable for their own reasons.

But rather I am disappointed by the fact that the Devs haven't worked with you two (and all the other hard-working community members who provide similar services) to integrate such important features as content customization in to the game itself.

 

Now, of course, I understand that there are some mitigating factors which complicate things.

Foremost, assumably and likely, due to the nature of this being a pirate operation where there's a desire not to poke the sleeping bear of ncsoft when it comes to revealing what is still legally protected code and assets.

Secondarily, and more irksomely, there seems to be a very nebulous and questionable system at play in regard to ownership and rights of original code and assets being created by the volunteers.  I've heard some disturbing rumours about how that stuff is being handled, and that's very disappointing to me.  I hope the rumours are incorrect . . . but I've seen no evidence to contradict them.

Third, there's a limit on time and energy, and recruiting and training members of the community takes considerable time and energy.   . . . of course, there are ways to seriously mitigate that cost, which I'm still struggling to find the way to effectively encourage the Team to further explore.

And fourth . . .

 

And this one probably applies to me too, so I'm not blind to the potential appearance of hypocrisy . . . 

 

The Devs are human beings, with personal feelings and opinions, and generally don't like to be upset.

So, even when someone explicitly provokes you, or you misinterpret someone's actions as a provocation, and then respond with an escalation . . . then it very likely makes the Devs disinclined to cooperate and share freely.

 

And that one's on us.

We've got to step up and be better.  Even if the first, second, and third issues don't or can't be resolved, we can at least strive toward bettering ourselves.  Conducting ourselves professionally.  Or failing that, courteously.  Even in the face of our own personal feelings and opinions.

 

 

 

I think the mods you've been working on enrich the community, and I would like to encourage you to continue sharing them.

A break from things here might be refreshing, but I hope you consider returning if you do end up stepping away.