Richness, sense, Mistborn, Marvel Comics, the MCU, and CoH

[DougGraves]

The Mistborn trilogy has massive world building along with the story.  And in the end you find out that almost every detail that has come up as the story went along matters.  It all ties into a massive plot that explains everything and depends on everything.  Very satisfying in its way.

 

In Marvel comics, things are messy.  60 years of history with lots of different comics, storylines, etc.  Things exist that are unrelated to one another - and then they bump into each other. 

 

But the MCU rewrites Marvel to fit the Mistborn model.  A Stark or alien technology explains almost all advanced technology.  Tony built Ultron instead of Henry Pym.  Vulture gets his wings from alien technology. 

 

While I love Mistborn, I reject the same everything ties together in the MCU.  I don't want the entire world of superheroes to have just a few things that drive the whole world. 

 

CoH has lots of different villain groups, organizations, etc.  It also has Nemesis.  And when you play arcs you discover connections between different groups.  So how do you want the CoH lore to go? 

 

Do you want it all to ultimately make sense?  These are the sources of power, the things that changed our world into the CoH world.  This is the grand plot behind everything?

 

Or do you want it just chaotic and random.  Hellions worship demons and the Banished Pantheon worships evil gods and someone else worships demons and there are no connections between them - there are plenty of demons to go around?  There are endless mad scientists creating freakshow, sky raider technology, etc.  It is not all a Nemesis plot.

[tidge]

The steam-powered representative from Prussia votes "The diverse elements of the Lore should not be connected."

[Rishidian]

My thoughts are: they are all related.  But not necessarily discoverable. 

 

There are many points in the CoX timeline, with lots of gaps that may not be linearly connectable.

[The_Warpact]

Well if this group worships this demon and this other group likes this demon. I would theorize being that they are demons they probably don't get along since I never heard of demon Bridge clubs.

But, there's an evil God who has his own worshippers and they all think demons are scum, would the two opposing demon groups join up to go beat on the evil gods worshippers?

I think with it all it has to be connected, seeing how tech and magic connect would probably be different, but, then I think of Rom space knight and there were tech wraith and magic wraith and they didn't get along but did have a common ancestry namely male and female of the same species. 

In the end, I believe everything should be connected and yet chaotic as everything is in the world today.

[Arctique]

I say, aim for a middle ground. Does everything need to be connected in some way? No. But I wouldn't put everything into its own isolated bubbles either, because finding plot threads connecting things in places you didn't expect can be a lot of fun. If everything is connected by some central unifying thread (it all coming back to the Well or all a Nemesis plot), it becomes less of a surprise when you find two seemingly separate parts of the lore tie in with each other.

[MTeague]

I mean, we know, beyond any possiblity of doubt whatsoever:   It's All A Nemesis Plot. 

We just haven't found all the connections yet 😀

 

That said, I think *some* connections make sense.  {A,B,C} connected, but not D, and none of those connected to {E,F}.

People are going to have their own personal headcanons and backstories that involve misc factions too. 

So I actually prefer HINTS that some things might be connected vs any kind of PROOF that things are connected.

Then people can pick and choose what makes sense for them.

 

Of course, lots of us will pick or choose things anyway, Lore Be Damned... just not Lt Commander Data <ducks>

 

Plus, jeez, with the Amount of Time Travel and Janked History Rewrites via Ouroborous, I mean, good luck to anyone trying to puzzle out Paragon's "real" timeline. 

The entire universe should have already imploded from massive paradoxes already. 

And that's before we start involving Alternate Dimension versions of NPC's trying to muscle into this Dimension. (not just Praetoria, but others too).

I think it's safe to say even the most determined kitten is going to spend lifetimes on this ball of yarn. 

[DougGraves]

30 minutes ago, The_Warpact said:

then I think of Rom space knight

 

Is this the only time Rom has been mentioned in the 21st century?  I'll mention poor Torpedo as well so he is not forgotten.

[Apparition]

16 minutes ago, DougGraves said:

 

Is this the only time Rom has been mentioned in the 21st century?  I'll mention poor Torpedo as well so he is not forgotten.

ROM was rebooted about five years ago and is no longer affiliated with Marvel Comics, but with the Transformers and G.I. Joe.  There is also a live action ROM film in the works.

[Herotu]

2 hours ago, DougGraves said:

Do you want it all to ultimately make sense?  These are the sources of power, the things that changed our world into the CoH world.  This is the grand plot behind everything?

 

Or do you want it just chaotic and random.

Given that it's all a nemesis plot, the point is moot, right?

[cranebump]

There's what we think we know, and what is actually happening (or not). The breadth of what matters often depends on what the concerned actors can do about it.

 

More specifically, the inconsistencies only seem so because we haven't been given all the information (or the right information). This is why "Nemesis plot" works so well as a rationale. Sow chaos, so that your real agenda can hardly be identified, much less resisted. 

 

Not related, I guess, but I enjoy Lore gaps, or Lore that hasn't been fully fleshed out. I can use it as creative grist in AE (EX: Mobius is all about what the Battalion threat really was/is; current Leviathan arcs focus on the Storm Korps).

Edited March 25, 2021 by cranebump

[cranebump]

Oops. double post

Edited March 25, 2021 by cranebump
double post

[Greycat]

I want a middle ground.

 

Some things can be tied together in a grand plot that even some of the participants aren't aware of, being used by some other being or group, absolutely. There can, of course, be multiple of these, to a point, and of different scales. Mix in local plots of a group or individual that can be seen and stopped that have nothing to do with the big group's plot to TRY to TAKE OVER the WORLD! 

 

What I'd also like to see, frankly, are some older plot hooks (*cough*gadzul/BotBS*cough*) picked up, fleshed out and finished.

[Rishidian]

What is the Devs at Paragon Studios had a team name of Nemesis...

[Omega-202]

I know people in this thread seem to be half jokingly saying "its all a Nemesis plot", but in all seriousness, isn't it?  

 

To answer OP's question, CoH already has a canon answer: all of the major plot threads legitimately lead back to Nemesis.  Rikti invasion, Praetorian invasion, Oroboros, Shadow Shard...

 

And whatever isn't Nemesis related seems to be tied back to the Circle of Thorns in some way.  All storylines fall in a Venn diagram of like 5 circles with the Nemesis circle covering most of them.  If anything Nemesis is more involved in the CoH lore than Stark tech is in the MCU.  

[Techwright]

We already have it all tied together, do we not?  And the tie isn't Nemesis or Circle of Thorns.  It's POWER.  They're just prominent because they have so much of it.  The real source is, well, the Well.  The Well has power and the Well enjoys displays of power.  Anything not already known to be pointing to the Well is likely a thread we've just not discovered yet.  And if I understand correctly, the Well is beyond the limitation of the universe as well, meaning it intersects all parallel universes.  From my limited perspective (I've not played every mission) the Well is this game's version of Infinity Stones.

[Outrider_01]

OP is over thinking it.  If the story doesn't make sense, something is wrong.  If the story makes sense, it's a Nemesis plot and something is wrong.

[Techwright]

2 hours ago, Outrider_01 said:

OP is over thinking it.  If the story doesn't make sense, something is wrong.  If the story makes sense, it's a Nemesis plot and something is wrong.

But how do you know it is a Nemesis plot?

Because it doesn't make sense!

What makes you think it doesn't make sense?

Well, because I turned into a Ritki monkey during the mission!

(silent stares)

...I got better.

There are other ways of telling if it is a Nemesis plot.

Tell us!

It is a Nemesis plot if it makes sense.

But...if it doesn't make sense...it is a Nemesis plot.

True.  But if it also does make sense...?

It...                ....it is a Nemesis plot?

Good!

But that doesn't make sense!

And therefore....

....it is a Nemesis plot?

Exactly!

[DougGraves]

12 minutes ago, Techwright said:

And therefore....

....it is a Nemesis plot?

Exactly!

 

that old woman is right

[Outrider_01]

2 hours ago, Techwright said:

But how do you know it is a Nemesis plot?

Because it doesn't make sense!

What makes you think it doesn't make sense?

Well, because I turned into a Ritki monkey during the mission!

(silent stares)

...I got better.

There are other ways of telling if it is a Nemesis plot.

Tell us!

It is a Nemesis plot if it makes sense.

But...if it doesn't make sense...it is a Nemesis plot.

True.  But if it also does make sense...?

It...                ....it is a Nemesis plot?

Good!

But that doesn't make sense!

And therefore....

....it is a Nemesis plot?

Exactly!

I couldn't say it any better 👍

[Sovera]

It's peculiar that the winging way of making up things as we go (Marvel/DC comics, that at some point become so rife with contradictions (oh hey, lets make the Flash say he can react to things in a femtosecond -and- can break the light barrier. Now lets have him get surprise punched by someone who throws boomerangs) that they are forced into period reboots) is actually being sighed at with nostalgia.

 

I much prefer things explained and related to each other even if the in-game explanation is not how the lore says things actually happened.

 

 

Guild Wars 2 did one thing I rather liked at the time and was that the lore found in the game (usually taken as iron clad gospel by players) was -not- a retcon but rather a mix of racial propaganda and rewriting history. Things -had- happened as lore said they did, but the races rewrote things to their liking either because they were the victors or because enough time had passed to distort things.

[Clave Dark 5]

I'm not much a fan of the lore* so I don't really care all that much.  Just make the current story I'm in the middle of compelling enough.

 

*Fandoms obsessively tracking stupidly tiny details as if it matters that Darth Vader once met Bigg's great-uncle in some comic from twenty years ago is one of my bug-a-boos.