Focused Feedback: Travel Power Updates (FLIGHT POOL) - Build 3

[Captain Citadel]

It honestly feels like EvMa is struggling to justify its existence after the reasons most people spent a power slot on Afterburner have been pruned away into the new bonus Afterburner power. What good is bonus defense that only works outside of combat? What good is flight control when Hover already provides it, especially since we can now toggle Fly and Hover simultaneously?

[arthurh35353]

1 hour ago, Captain Citadel said:

It honestly feels like EvMa is struggling to justify its existence after the reasons most people spent a power slot on Afterburner have been pruned away into the new bonus Afterburner power. What good is bonus defense that only works outside of combat? What good is flight control when Hover already provides it, especially since we can now toggle Fly and Hover simultaneously?

This is what I was saying. Some people say they love it for the combat parts, but they feel lackluster to me. But I think the devs are finding it hard to give it its own thing that doesn't stack on other powers for the min maxers to abuse.

[Wavicle]

1 hour ago, Captain Citadel said:

It honestly feels like EvMa is struggling to justify its existence after the reasons most people spent a power slot on Afterburner have been pruned away into the new bonus Afterburner power. What good is bonus defense that only works outside of combat? What good is flight control when Hover already provides it, especially since we can now toggle Fly and Hover simultaneously?

Hover +EM doesn’t suppress. Fly does.

[Bopper]

1 hour ago, Captain Citadel said:

It honestly feels like EvMa is struggling to justify its existence after the reasons most people spent a power slot on Afterburner have been pruned away into the new bonus Afterburner power. What good is bonus defense that only works outside of combat? What good is flight control when Hover already provides it, especially since we can now toggle Fly and Hover simultaneously?

The immob protection and KB resistance in one power was the first reason I wanted it. No need to take CJ for immob and no need to waste as many slots for KB protection thanks to the KB resistance nearly doubling any protection I have in my build. A 4 KB protect will now grant me almost 8 KB protect, a 6 KB protect will grant me almost 12 KB protection.

 

The second reason was the in combat speed. Pair it with Hover and you're moving as fast or faster in combat than you would on the ground with Sprint and the inherent fitness powers, but with full vertical positioning control.

 

Or pair it with Fly and reaching the fly cap will be practically automatic, but also pair it with Fly and I will improve my in combat speed, Fly control and Fly protection. 

 

Or if I have the endurance recovery for it, I can run Hover, Fly, and EvMa to get the best of each.

 

Keep in mind, I know the power isn't for everyone. But just because it may not fit your build or your playstyle does not mean it isn't useful for anyone else. 

[Captain Citadel]

8 minutes ago, Bopper said:

Keep in mind, I know the power isn't for everyone. But just because it may not fit your build or your playstyle does not mean it isn't useful for anyone else. 

Not really what I'm getting at. It just seems like EvMa is far less useful than the power it's replacing, aside from retaining slotting.

[Wavicle]

1 minute ago, Captain Citadel said:

Not really what I'm getting at. It just seems like EvMa is far less useful than the power it's replacing, aside from retaining slotting.

The power it’s replacing had ZERO use in combat and the new options allow you to go FASTER. This comment makes no sense.

Edited March 30, 2021 by Wavicle

[Captain Citadel]

1 minute ago, Wavicle said:

The power it’s replacing had ZERO use in combat and the new options allow you to go FASTER. This comment makes no sense.

I'm not complaining about the new Afterburner. The old AB made you go faster and so does the new one, even if I have gripes with the new cooldown it has. EvMa has very limited use inside combat and basically none outside. Anyone already using Combat Jumping and Hover for set bonuses won't get much out of EvMa at all. Live Afterburner has a use in every build, it makes you go significantly faster. EvMa is less universally effective because many builds will already have the benefits it provides and won't need to stack them with EvMa for that much extra benefit. At a certain point the mag is just overkill, at least in PvE. I don't PvP so for all I know it's really good there, but if that's the case then EvMa is still far more of an edge-case ability than its predecessor.

[Bopper]

13 hours ago, Captain Citadel said:

Not really what I'm getting at. It just seems like EvMa is far less useful than the power it's replacing, aside from retaining slotting.

I see, you're taking EvMa's functionality added and comparing it to what Afterburner functionally added on Live despite the fact most of that functionality is still retained in Fly itself. Personally, I've been tracking it as what does Fly+AB add versus Fly+EvMa add. When I do that, I get:

 

Live:

     New Fly cap = 72.95 to 87.95 mph (depending on slotting)

     Gain New Fly cap while only affect self

     Defense buff while only affect self

 

Page 2: (highlighted EvMa benefits in orange)

     New Fly cap = 87.95 mph

     Defense buff unless you affect non-self

     Added in-combat speed

     Added Immobilization protection

     Added KB resistance

     Added Fly protection

     30s Fly cap/speed buff (60s cooldown)

 

I suppose I look at it differently because so much of what Afterburner on Live offered was not lost in Page 2. The biggest change is the reactive/proactive defense on Live while EvMa only provides proactive defense. But I have found it not to be much of concern as the added in-combat speed allows me to fly to safety immediately after I am out of animation rooting. On Live I gain the defense immediately but I'm still suppressed in travel speed for 4s before I can bail.

Edited March 31, 2021 by Bopper

[BrandX]

I'm just curious, why no secondary power for Infiltration?  

[ForeverLaxx]

13 minutes ago, BrandX said:

I'm just curious, why no secondary power for Infiltration?  

I'd imagine it's because it's not a "real" travel power like the others. It's a themed movement power that is essentially just a slottable Ninja Run.

[Jimmy]

44 minutes ago, BrandX said:

I'm just curious, why no secondary power for Infiltration?  

The click powers on the others were to allow two nearly identical base powers (Fly / Mystic Flight) to be different and still have the same basic travel capability. Infiltration and Teleport are unique in that regard, so no additional bonus is required.

[Replacement]

1 hour ago, Jimmy said:

The click powers on the others were to allow two nearly identical base powers (Fly / Mystic Flight) to be different and still have the same basic travel capability. Infiltration and Teleport are unique in that regard, so no additional bonus is required.

But what about Freeru- oh, right.  Built-in Stealth also future-proofs Infiltration on that front.

[America's Angel]

12 hours ago, Sovera said:

Well, it's back to jump packs to the rest of us who don't squander slots in travel powers.

 

You shouldn't need to do this. Let me explain why.

 

This is what a P2W Jetpack provides on beta:

 

This is what a P2W Rocket Board provides on beta:

 

This is what Flight + Evasive Manuevers provide in the latest build:

  

19 hours ago, Jimmy said:

	Live	Beta
Fly (0 IO) + AB/EvMa (0 IO)	70.69	70.69

 

 

 

So, the P2W jetpacks will be slower than someone using Flight + Evasive Manuevers with no slots in them.

 

You'll also notice that Jimmy's last post revealed a new change for Build 4: 

• Flight + Evasive Manuevers will now be the same speed as Flight + Afterburner on Live.

 

I.e. you will be as quick as you are on live. Even with no flight enhancements slotted anywhere.

 

 

So, to update my earlier post:

• Flight + Evasive Manuevers is slower than Flight + Afterburner on live Edit: No longer true as of Build 4.
• Flight + Evasive Manuevers has less movement control than Flight + Afterburner  on live Edit: Was a bug. They are working on fixing it.
• Flight + Evasive Manuevers gives me less defense than Flight + Afterburner  on live.

That last point is offset by the extra combat utility provided by EvMa.

 

Add in the extra click power of Afterburner, and the increased speed caps you can slot for, and these flight changes are objectively an improvement vs live.

 

I hope that clears up any confusion for anyone testing the powers.

 

Edited March 30, 2021 by America's Angel

[Wavicle]

2 minutes ago, America's Angel said:

 

You shouldn't need to do this. Let me explain why.

 

This is what a P2W Jetpack provides on beta:

 

This is what a P2W Rocket Board provides on beta:

 

This is what Flight + Evasive Manuevers provide in the latest build:

  

 

So, the P2W jetpacks will be slower than someone using Flight + Evasive Manuevers with no slots in them.

 

You'll also notice that Jimmy's last post revealed a new change for Build 4: 

• Flight + Evasive Manuevers will now be the same speed as Flight + Afterburner on Live.

 

I.e. you will be as quick as you are on live. Even with no flight enhancements slotted anywhere.

 

 

So, to update my earlier post:

• Flight + Evasive Manuevers is slower than Flight + Afterburner on live Edit: No longer true as of Build 4.
• Flight + Evasive Manuevers has less movement control than Flight + Afterburner  on live Edit: Was a bug. They are working on fixing it.
• Flight + Evasive Manuevers gives me less defense than Flight + Afterburner  on live.

That last point is offset by the extra combat utility provided by EvMa.

 

Add in the extra click power of Afterburner, and the increased speed caps you can slot for, and these flight changes are objectively an improvement vs live.

 

I hope that clears up any confusion for anyone testing the powers.

 

You can also keep Hover on, further increasing your Defense.

[Jimmy]

2 minutes ago, America's Angel said:

This is what a P2W Rocket Board provides on beta:

This would be a bug 👀

[Wavicle]

Just now, Jimmy said:

This would be a bug 👀

What Should it look like?

[Jimmy]

1 minute ago, Wavicle said:

What Should it look like?

Should be the same as P2W jetpacks.

 

It accidentally got the same buff Fly did.

[Wavicle]

1 minute ago, Jimmy said:

Should be the same as P2W jetpacks.

 

It accidentally got the same buff Fly did.

Am I mistaken in thinking Rocket Board has always been faster than Jet Pack, justified by not being able to use other powers with it?

[QuiJon]

3 hours ago, arthurh35353 said:

This is what I was saying. Some people say they love it for the combat parts, but they feel lackluster to me. But I think the devs are finding it hard to give it its own thing that doesn't stack on other powers for the min maxers to abuse.

Just spit balling here also, but why cant it allow some stacking of abilities just like other powers would and still offer benefit. So like:

 

Hover gives the hover speed and defense bonus it has now and tighter controls. Gets no bonus from anything else. 

 

Flight will boost you to like current beta level, 2 slots can put you at cap afterburner (prefer non click but whatever) to 102.

 

EvMan Puts you 1 flight speed IO from being capped to whatever is deemed ok for incombat movement speed. (therefore 1 here and 1 in flight also caps travel flight.) Give another incombat defense bonus, something small like a stealth or manuevers but still it gives it all the time. 

 

With something like this, hover will provide the combat control and defense, while EvMan provides speed and additional defense. And fly over all is only on for traveling not for combat. I dont see how this would be an issue, we can already stack multiple defense buffs so it would be no different then say having stealth pool or leadership pools defense with hover like now other then it would save a power pool pick to achieve it, which i think would be welcomed by many people in that it might open up some alternate power choices when you can get your defense and have a pool still open to chose from. And if you dont want EvMan then a slot in flight caps you but if you do then the same 2 slots cap your travel power anyway. So no more expensive to get your 87.9mph speed cap. 

[Wavicle]

1 minute ago, QuiJon said:

Just spit balling here also, but why cant it allow some stacking of abilities just like other powers would and still offer benefit. So like:

 

Hover gives the hover speed and defense bonus it has now and tighter controls. Gets no bonus from anything else. 

 

Flight will boost you to like current beta level, 2 slots can put you at cap afterburner (prefer non click but whatever) to 102.

 

EvMan Puts you 1 flight speed IO from being capped to whatever is deemed ok for incombat movement speed. (therefore 1 here and 1 in flight also caps travel flight.) Give another incombat defense bonus, something small like a stealth or manuevers but still it gives it all the time. 

 

With something like this, hover will provide the combat control and defense, while EvMan provides speed and additional defense. And fly over all is only on for traveling not for combat. I dont see how this would be an issue, we can already stack multiple defense buffs so it would be no different then say having stealth pool or leadership pools defense with hover like now other then it would save a power pool pick to achieve it, which i think would be welcomed by many people in that it might open up some alternate power choices when you can get your defense and have a pool still open to chose from. And if you dont want EvMan then a slot in flight caps you but if you do then the same 2 slots cap your travel power anyway. So no more expensive to get your 87.9mph speed cap. 

 

I'm unclear on what problem you're trying to solve. The only difference here seems to be given EM a small always on Def bonus.

[America's Angel]

26 minutes ago, Jimmy said:

This would be a bug 👀

 

Haha figured it might be. The P2W Magic Carpet and Void Skiff also got the same buff FYI.

 

Also, when I run Rocket Board on a character with IO speed bonuses...the combat monitor sometimes changes the # of Rocket Board buffs it displays:

 

 

I've had trouble replicating this. And it doesn't seem to do anything. So no big deal tbh.

 

Tangent - My ski slope character loves these changes:

 

 

Edited March 30, 2021 by America's Angel

[QuiJon]

1 minute ago, Wavicle said:

 

I'm unclear on what problem you're trying to solve. The only difference here seems to be given EM a small always on Def bonus.

Now i dont even know, seems like every issue i am getting confused on what people are having a problem with. I thought people were complaining about the speed in combat being significantly lower unless you used more slotting requiring more respec to a character. I was trying to suggest why not just let each power buff its own specificed flight ability, either hover, travel, or combat but allow Fly to also benefit from slotting in EVMan for speed (kind of like sprint) to help cap fly speed without having to use more slots IF you had taken EvMan. But essentially EvMan on its own could cap the combat flight speed with nothing else toggled on. Then it is just an argument of how fast is fast enough for in combat movement. 

[Myrmidon]

My Mystic Flight on Test: 1 level 50 IO in both Mystic Flight and Swift, 2 performance Shifter bonuses. Total speed: 87mph.
 

Fix the Evasive Maneuvers issues and we’re done here. I’m ready for the Respecs.

[Icecomet]

So my counter proposal on the flight pool proposed changes would be as follows:

 

1. Hover would get a 1-2% base defense buff.

2. Fly would be increased to the same speed and caps as what is on beta.

3. Evasive Maneuvers + AB on beta would be rolled up into the existing AB, including removing 'affecting only self' portion of AB. (AB will remain a full time toggle and if a slight overall speed adjustment has to take place, thats ok too, any way you slice it, we'll be profoundly faster than we are on live today).

 

To me this is way more simple and elegant than this massive pool revamp and introducing a system tray power and all the like.  I have a hard time understanding this massive overhaul when the existing powers could just be tweaked to achieve exactly the same result without messing around with what we have.

 

 

Edited March 31, 2021 by Icecomet

[Troo]

5 hours ago, Bopper said:

Keep in mind, I know the power isn't for everyone. But just because it may not fit your build or your playstyle does not mean it isn't useful for anyone else. 

 

The same could be said for the Live version of Afterburner.

 

5 hours ago, Wavicle said:

The power it’s replacing had ZERO use in combat and the new options allow you to go FASTER. This comment makes no sense.

 

See Bopper's note above.

Also, your having zero idea how to use it in combat does not trump or discount the fact that others do have combat uses for it.

 

Edited March 30, 2021 by Troo