Concealment Pool Update: Stealth or Invisibility?

[kelika2]

Infiltration and Stealth sounds really redundant with one another.  I voted rename Stealth to Invisibility

1.) stronger stealth

2.) its confusing as hell for anyone on Excelsior since there is someone constantly getting mad wondering where Invisibility went

3.) since Infiltration has less stealth than invis and it got replaced by it, kinda weird.

[csr]

I'd go with Invisibility just because the pool attribute name is Stealth; eliminates a possible confusion between the pool attribute and the power.

Edited April 23, 2021 by csr
Didn't type what I was actually thinking

[Glacier Peak]

15 minutes ago, csr said:

I'd go with Invisibility just because the pool name is Stealth; eliminates a possible confusion between the pool and the power.

Just a heads up the pool is called Concealment 

[Peacemoon]

I vote for stealth. 
 

infiltration seems like a great ‘natural’ themed travel power, and stealth fits the natural theme better than ‘invisibility’, which sounds more magical.

 

Also since you can attack while using it, I think stealth fits better.

invisibility I feel is something that would be completely dispelled if broken and needs to be recast. This wasn’t an issue before in CoH because you could not attack while invisible. 
 

[Peacemoon]

1 hour ago, kelika2 said:

Infiltration and Stealth sounds really redundant with one another.  I voted rename Stealth to Invisibility

1.) stronger stealth

2.) its confusing as hell for anyone on Excelsior since there is someone constantly getting mad wondering where Invisibility went

3.) since Infiltration has less stealth than invis and it got replaced by it, kinda weird.

Perhaps something could be done with the icon and short description? I would keep the name as stealth though.

[Uruare]

It should be called One Million Death Bees Spewing From A Vuvuzela.

 

I don't really know why other than that I'm a kook and think it'd be funny.

[Taboo]

7 hours ago, Faultline said:

To be fair, this power grants 55 Stealth (same as old Invisibility, I believe, once the suppression bugs are fixed) while Hide providess 150 Stealth and Superior Invisibility a whooping 200 Stealth, so it's not really on the same league. I don't know how much Stealth is needed to be "truly invisible", though -- not a powers dev.

 

Is that the same as old Stealth + old Invisibility?

[TalynDerre]

Please call it 'stealth.'  I have lots of Natural and Tech heroes who can't turn invisible, which has a very specific meaning, but sure as heck and be sneaky.

[Jaguaratron]

I just started watching "The Boys" so Translucent.....

[kelika2]

18 minutes ago, TalynDerre said:

Please call it 'stealth.'  I have lots of Natural and Tech heroes who can't turn invisible, which has a very specific meaning, but sure as heck and be sneaky.

I am 90% sure Tech stores have a Belt of Invisibility somewhere in the back

As for natural, im sure there is a dragon technique taught by joe down by the river.

[Bopper]

57 minutes ago, Taboo said:

 

Is that the same as old Stealth + old Invisibility?

Those powers were mutually exclusive. But it is the same as old Invisibility by itself.

[dtj714]

Given the way it is seemingly *supposed* to function (not as it currently does, which is admittedly bugged), Invisibility, because it’s pretty much the old Invisibility with the added benefit that under certain conditions, you can retain some level of stealth and defensive bonus, instead of it being all/nothing. 

[xyvaz]

21 hours ago, MrBadman said:

Given that stealth now functions as invisibility use to (making you indetectable to NPCs until an action was taken) and infiltration now acts as stealth use to (detectable to enemies at a certain distance, but with additional travel power benifits) I'd say keep "Invisibility" as invisibility and rename "infiltration" to "stealth".

 

When I read the descriptions of how the powers worked, this was my reaction, if you have stealth's stealth as good as invisiblity call it invisiblity.  And Infiltration doesn't sounds right, as someone said before it's not like you're tricking someone to get on the inside, it's more of you being stealthy, which the power mechanics were changed to match.  As I always understood it, stealth was like "half invisiblity" and if were able to stack two things of stealth you were practically invisible.  The naming convention should match the mechanics.

I mean it sounds like you switched the two and buffed the stealth to also be a travel power, which I don't get why we need it to be a travel power, but also I get the need to combine stealth and invisiblity since once you get one, why bother with the other, other than it was a prerequisite.  Also maybe there does need to be a better explaination of the different types of stealth.

[Bopper]

17 minutes ago, xyvaz said:

When I read the descriptions of how the powers worked, this was my reaction, if you have stealth's stealth as good as invisiblity call it invisiblity.  And Infiltration doesn't sounds right, as someone said before it's not like you're tricking someone to get on the inside, it's more of you being stealthy, which the power mechanics were changed to match.  As I always understood it, stealth was like "half invisiblity" and if were able to stack two things of stealth you were practically invisible.  The naming convention should match the mechanics.

I mean it sounds like you switched the two and buffed the stealth to also be a travel power, which I don't get why we need it to be a travel power, but also I get the need to combine stealth and invisiblity since once you get one, why bother with the other, other than it was a prerequisite.  Also maybe there does need to be a better explaination of the different types of stealth.

The two powers were literally combined. You get the best of what each has to offer. The OOC defense and concealment from Invisibility, and the In-Combat defense and non-OAS from Stealth. Seeing as how I would always take Stealth over Invisibilty before Page 2 (because of preference not requirements), I would say Invisibilty got buffed more than Stealth, given the fact I don't want to only be able to affect myself and I want the permanent defense from Stealth while in combat.

[Dahkness]

I vote invisibility.

[Wonderbolt]

Stealth.

 

"Invisibility" has a very specific meaning to someone designing a character, whereas "Stealth" has a general meaning that completely covers invisibility as a concept. If I want to play a stealthy hero like Batman, and I'm looking for powers that would fit him, my eyes fall on "invisibility" and I think "no, that's not appropriate. He can't become invisible, he's just stealthy."

 

Conversely, let's say I'm designing a character who can in fact become invisible. My eyes fall on a power named "Stealth" and I think "perfect, that fits my invisibility-using character just fine, her invisibility allows her to be stealthy."

 

Powers should have broad appeal, and Stealth appeals to anyone who wants to be hard to see. Invisibility is much narrower.

[kelika2]

1 hour ago, Rikti said:

If I want to play a stealthy hero like Batman

Batgod is invisible until he wants you to see him.  Half serious, half not.  You picked the wrong example.

And mechanically, batman has a 3d world to work with, meanwhile we have borderline 2d corridors and such each map and you "stealthing" past a group of enemies in a hallway with nothing to hide behind/above is just silly to begin with and whatever the powers name is wont change that.

 

But all the other players who are confused by the name changes is what needs addressing here.  Many people are still logging on getting legit angry in chat for two reasons:

1.) They think Invis is gone

And even trying to type out this next point is another reason to name is Invisibility:

2.) Moving old invis to new stealth while giving people who all had old invisibility new infiltration fucked with builds and people think old invis is gone not knowing or cant wrap their head around that its new stealth.

 

You can still RP with "Stealth"(old) with "Infiltration"(new), but having both is confusing as fuck and redundant.  Having new stealth renamed Invisibility wont change anything from a roleplayers point of view since you have Infiltration which you can slot with a Celerity for old(new)((old)) invis.(old)

[Flintlock Burnfur]

I have the concealment pool on my main (who also is a scrapper).  Combined with the stealth unique IO in superspeed and the old invisibility, she had better stealth than most stalkers.  Now with the change, that's kind of gone (not complaining, I like the new infiltration power as a sort of travel power addon).  But the Stealth power now has a bit more stealth to it before.  Not as much as what my character had before (turn on invisibility and poof! gone!) but it's still a decent amount.

 

So yeah, keep stealth as stealth.

[Crasical]

I like Renaming it to invsibility, so you have Invisibility and Grant Invisibility, and then Infiltration as the third, different power.

[kelika2]

The train of thought goes deeper.  What if everyone who voted keep stealth think that stealth will be gone when its infiltration they want.

 

I now vote for a third option, put the names back the way they were but keep the new running icon in stealth and hand out a free respec.

[Replacement]

On 4/20/2021 at 3:58 PM, Jimmy said:

Please note: This isn't going to be a binding poll, if convincing arguments are made one way or the other in this thread, we may opt to go with a specific option even if the poll says differently.

Smart move.

 

I think there's an argument for a new name altogether:

• We want something people knows isn't OLD Stealth
• "Invisibility" isn't conducive to a lot of toons that view Stealth as Skyrim Crouching.
• Stealth is the stat, so maybe we shouldn't have a power called that? Imagine if we had a +defense toggle called "Defense" and it wasn't even the strongest defense toggle.

Subterfuge, Cloak (sounds too tech), Veiled, Shrouded, Camouflage, Disguise... You get the idea.

[dtj714]

Here’s another consideration - “stealth” is one of the effects granted by the power, and several other powers grant the same effect, in greater or lesser amounts. The amount granted determines the effectiveness of the power. So “stealth” should be reserved for discussions of the variable effect granted by various powers, while this particular power should be called Invisibility, because that’s what the amount of stealth in the power does - makes you (usually) undetectable at point-blank range (i.e., invisible) without the aid of any other power.

Edited April 22, 2021 by dtj714

[Alchemystic]

@Jimmy if 'Stealth' wins out, then does that mean that Illusion Control's 'Superior Invisibility' just becomes... Invisibility?

 

 

Edited April 23, 2021 by Tyrannical

[UberGuy]

22 minutes ago, Tyrannical said:

@Jimmy if 'Stealth' wins out, then does that mean that Illusion Control's 'Superior Invisibility' just becomes... Invisibility?

 

Have you met any Illusion Controllers? They'll still insist it's superior, even if it's the only one!

[Tarantulas82]

Neither as (stealth) can be construed as a number of abilities and (invisibility) is one specific ability. Why not keep it called (concealment)?