Determining if the Game is Too Easy

[Monos King]

2 minutes ago, JJDrakken said:

So I feel it's all just moot. You want something tougher, play red. Content from lvl 1-20 is harder then most content from 20-40 for Redside folks(Cept for maybe CoT Ruin Mages, but even then we get those clowns sooner on red then blue).

I can tell you are somewhat weathered by the topic. I've found myself informing nearly everyone that jumps over the last few pages of this, but you'll be happy to learn the point of this thread is not to discuss options to make the game more difficult or to suggest buffing enemies. 

 

You hit the nail on the head, at the very least a vocal quantity of players do not want things getting generally harder. Once you dissect the matter, though, you can find that a large part of the issues with the games ease don't stem from the ease itself, but from factors discussed throughout the thread. There are ways to address those issues beyond just making enemies more difficult; in fact in some cases, that wouldn't even help. 

[Blackbird71]

3 hours ago, Snarky said:

He has 4 (4!)  F O U R Single Origin Enhancers.  and no, please do not multiply 4x4x4 and try to claim I said 64...   

 

Of course not; that would be bad math.  What you wrote was 4 x 4 x 3 x 2 x 1 x 4, which is 384.

[Mopery]

Some people think cucumbers taste better pickled.

[skoryy]

12 hours ago, Galaxy Brain said:

One, having all these PI teams / Farm teams boost lowbies only takes away from team prospects in other bits of the game. Why play story arcs when you can go to PI or Doorsit?

 

One thing we need to have a talk with on this is why is it so prevalent that players go to farms and PI and play ProgressQuest?  Actual leveling through content should be more fun, right?  And its not that hard!  And with double XP the bars go flying by in task forces!  So why do they don't think so?

 

I think I know an answer that I'm putting thoughts to works on, now that I re-rolled a scrapper project into a much more enjoyable blaster one.

[Blackbird71]

1 minute ago, skoryy said:

 

One thing we need to have a talk with on this is why is it so prevalent that players go to farms and PI and play ProgressQuest?  Actual leveling through content should be more fun, right?  And its not that hard!  And with double XP the bars go flying by in task forces!  So why do they don't think so?

 

OK, I'll bite.  I'm an altaholic with a lot of characters.  Generally speaking, I level them by playing mission arcs.  As a rule, I don't PL, and I don't do AE grinds/farms.  On rare occasion, I might do a couple of DFBs in the early levels on a new character to get started.  

Yet still, in the level 40-50 range, I often find myself joining PI radio teams to finish things off (or soloing PI radios if no one else is around, which given my play times is often the case).  Why?  Because frankly, it's more enjoyable than most of the PI contact missions.  The bulk of these I encounter are of the "go through a portal to alternate dimension XYZ into a large open-world map, then find the three glowies to click or one boss to defeat and be done."  Those missions are just tedious and boring, more so than radio missions.  If levels 40-50 had more options for mission arcs that were the standard fare for 1-40, I'd be all over it.  

 

Anyway, that's my 2 INF; take it for what it's worth.

[Snarky]

16 minutes ago, Blackbird71 said:

Because frankly, it's more enjoyable than most of the PI contact missions.  The bulk of these I encounter are of the "go through a portal to alternate dimension XYZ into a large open-world map, then find the three glowies to click or one boss to defeat and be done."  Those missions are just tedious and boring, more so than radio missions. 

This is how a lot of people feel about most of the game it seems.  I myself am target focused.  I will do X content for A reason.  1) Playing with friends 2) badge 3) merits. 4) experience.  

 

I used to run an alt through 4 DFBs, then run as many Task Forces in order to level them as I could.  Earn merits, badges, level, good stories for posting about the misery of LFG.  Finishing with a couple ITFs and late game TFs.  Now I have an alt account farmer and just PL the crap out of alt experiments.  In a few hours I can stand up a 50 and slap a build on.  Then go back and run Posi 1/2, Synapse etc to see if the build plays at all like what I thought.  

 

This game has a lot of content.  Not infinite, but a good warehouse full.  But people need a REASON to run it.  That is just human nature.  Add 5 weekly story arcs (with increased rewards and a way to figure if peeps were there for everything not just final mission - I assume through everyone doing the contact simultaneously) to the weekly TFs and slap on a badge for doing 100 weekly story arcs....  Carrot, not stick.  Works real good.  

Edited July 12, 2021 by Snarky

[BZRKR]

13 hours ago, Galaxy Brain said:

The frustration is more directed at the common answer of "oh, you can find ways to make the game engaging if you turn in these settings, and ask everyone to play your way!" What is often missed with the defense of "you are not forced to play their way" is that it can easily be reversed when you are making teams / asking folks to change on their end too.

I'm sorry you are frustrated, but I think the solution to the above is to make friends (I'd start by reaching out to everyone who liked your post) and run characters with them.

13 hours ago, Galaxy Brain said:

The dampen bit refers to two things which are hard to communicate around, especially if it is prevalent. One, having all these PI teams / Farm teams boost lowbies only takes away from team prospects in other bits of the game. Why play story arcs when you can go to PI or Doorsit? Two, joining teams with super powered lvl 50+ folks is like you two are playing different games. It is often not too fun to feel like you can't even get your powers off, let alone your powers don't matter when they do land with others blasting by you.

The game is big enough for more than one playstyle. Again, I think all of the like minded people in this thread should pick a server and roll new alts together and play the way you guys want. Maybe start a thread and post screenshots of your cool adventures like the Tanker Tuesday folks do and you'll attract more people.

13 hours ago, Galaxy Brain said:

The game naturally sort of pushes you to Incarnate/ IOs as you peruse your dropped items or exp last 50, and everywhere a player asks they will be pointed to builds on reddit, discord, and Facebook to tips on how to get powerful quickly. Combine it all together and you get a double whammy where folks fly by most of the game to 50+, and once there they are much better at content than you are of you go "all naturale" due to lvl shifts and the like, assuming you both play well. With not much to do with all that power, they go to the most bang for their buck with Radios / farms / weekly targets. Other things like incarnate clicks making whole ATs sorta "eh" at end game is an intertwined subject too.

I think you just named the Supergroup that you should start: "Au Naturale".

13 hours ago, Galaxy Brain said:

The solution to this should be to make the tasks available to such powerful players worthy of their skills. A new area of content meant for players that are beyond the base game on top of cool merits for the taking could be something that helps mitigate the issue of super characters running the show in the 40s. Would that stop PI radios? No. Farms? Likely no as well. Would it give people something new and engaging to do with their higher tier characters and possibly "free" up earlier content for those who can't compete in those? Maybe!

A dev team member has let us know that more content is coming, so that's a huge win for everyone!

 

I have to say though, this last part of the post really concerns me. What does "running the show" mean? Why is it important to stop PI Radios? Why is it important to stop farming? In a game that will create a new instance for every character that wants to enter a mission, what does "free up earlier content" mean?

 

Seriously, this game can provide fun experiences for all of the playstyles being mentioned. That's why this is the One True Game™. The kind of gameplay you want is within your reach, you just have to go make 7 friends and team up with them.

[BZRKR]

46 minutes ago, Snarky said:

This game has a lot of content.  Not infinite, but a good warehouse full.  But people need a REASON to run it.  That is just human nature.  Add 5 weekly story arcs (with increased rewards and a way to figure if peeps were there for everything not just final mission - I assume through everyone doing the contact simultaneously) to the weekly TFs and slap on a badge for doing 100 weekly story arcs....  Carrot, not stick.  Works real good.  

Maybe one of the menders in ouroboros could tell you where the timestream needs the most reinforcing (Giving you the weekly story arcs)

[Snarky]

15 minutes ago, BZRKR said:

Maybe one of the menders in ouroboros could tell you where the timestream needs the most reinforcing (Giving you the weekly story arcs)

THis is extra slick thank you.  This would put everyone in TF mode and solve many of those related issues.  Now that you said it I cannot think of another way to do it easier or better.  Just brilliant.

[Blackbird71]

29 minutes ago, Snarky said:

THis is extra slick thank you.  This would put everyone in TF mode and solve many of those related issues.  Now that you said it I cannot think of another way to do it easier or better.  Just brilliant.

 

Honestly, the TF mode for Ouro arcs is one reason I don't do them.  Oftentimes I'm running content with an SG, and when more people log on they want to join in on the content, and we'll often have slots available.  But if we're stuck in TF mode for a couple of hours, they can't just jump in.  So they end up doing something else, and by the time we've wrapped up an arc, either 1) the team is tired and done for the day, 2) those who wanted to join are now involved in something else, or 3) they've already logged off.

[Blackbird71]

1 hour ago, Snarky said:

This is how a lot of people feel about most of the game it seems.  I myself am target focused.  I will do X content for A reason.  1) Playing with friends 2) badge 3) merits. 4) experience.  

 

I used to run an alt through 4 DFBs, then run as many Task Forces in order to level them as I could.  Earn merits, badges, level, good stories for posting about the misery of LFG.  Finishing with a couple ITFs and late game TFs.  Now I have an alt account farmer and just PL the crap out of alt experiments.  In a few hours I can stand up a 50 and slap a build on.  Then go back and run Posi 1/2, Synapse etc to see if the build plays at all like what I thought.  

 

This game has a lot of content.  Not infinite, but a good warehouse full.  But people need a REASON to run it.  That is just human nature.  Add 5 weekly story arcs (with increased rewards and a way to figure if peeps were there for everything not just final mission - I assume through everyone doing the contact simultaneously) to the weekly TFs and slap on a badge for doing 100 weekly story arcs....  Carrot, not stick.  Works real good.  

 

You miss my point.  I have a reason to run the content:  for the most part, I enjoy the content, and I want to play what I enjoy.  But most of the PI contact missions are just not engaging the way that earlier story arcs are.  

 

When you can fly over the mission map, find all the objectives, and clear the map in under 5 minutes, it's not mechanically interesting.  And when the missions are completely repetitive and don't seem to string together into any sort of cohesive story, they share the same failings as radio missions without as much benefit.

Edited July 12, 2021 by Blackbird71

[Galaxy Brain]

26 minutes ago, BZRKR said:

The game is big enough for more than one playstyle. Again, I think all of the like minded people in this thread should pick a server and roll new alts together and play the way you guys want. Maybe start a thread and post screenshots of your cool adventures like the Tanker Tuesday folks do and you'll attract more people.

I mean, this is kind of the same idea as me saying "the other guys should do their own thing". Its a viable solution, but the root issue is there are a lot of folks that are put off  by the "norm" of what the game has become.

 

11 minutes ago, BZRKR said:

I have to say though, this last part of the post really concerns me. What does "running the show" mean? Why is it important to stop PI Radios? Why is it important to stop farming? In a game that will create a new instance for every character that wants to enter a mission, what does "free up earlier content" mean?

 

By running the show, I mean that players with maxed out IOs and Incarnates literally play a different game than people who do not in terms of how much more effective they are. It takes away from engagement when the content you are facing can be mowed down by 1/8th of your team, so when you are all attacking as a group you can at times feel like you aren't contributing much. this effects different characters to varying degrees of course.

 

 

55 minutes ago, BZRKR said:

Maybe one of the menders in ouroboros could tell you where the timestream needs the most reinforcing (Giving you the weekly story arcs)

 

Agreed with @Snarky, this is a super slick idea!

 

As to @Blackbird71's comment about the TF settings... what just hit me was that Story Arcs can be a bit "lame" at times in that if you join a friend for 9/10 missions, skipping the 1st and not having the content... only your friend gets the completion bonus. I wonder if that were fixed, more people would hop in?

[oedipus_tex]

28 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

By running the show, I mean that players with maxed out IOs and Incarnates literally play a different game than people who do not in terms of how much more effective they are. It takes away from engagement when the content you are facing can be mowed down by 1/8th of your team, so when you are all attacking as a group you can at times feel like you aren't contributing much. this effects different characters to varying degrees of course.

 

 

Good summary.

 

As a tangent, it's been a little surprising to me that Buff-style support characters sets like Thermal, Cold, Empathy, Electric Affinity, etc. haven't become more popular than they are. These sets mostly don't encounter the Purple Patch, so their buffs are always full strength. I can build a Force Field Defender and other than not having Power Boost yet, by level 10 and he'll offer full strength shields to a level 54 team. I don't think that's necessarily an action item we need to do anything about, it's just an interesting data point.

 

It's also the case that shifting +3 mobs down to +4 reduces in-coming damage by around 30%, so maybe the reason these defensive sets aren't as popular is because you basically get a "free" Sonic Resonance character from the Level Shift in terms of damage reduction. Actually, it's a bit better than that, because damage reductions from Level Shifts don't count against your Resistance cap, so toons with 75% or 90% damage resist are getting an additional 30% resistance on top of that.

 

I don't necessarily mind players getting the rewards they currently do for fighting +3s. I just would like members of the same team to be having closer to similar experiences. When I lead teams currently and set the difficulty to +4 I know a lot of my teammates are fighting +5s and I and a handful of others are fighting +3s. There isn't a setting that really evens out that difficulty. I'm excited by the changes Arachne mentioned but also a little nervous, partly because I wonder if the teammates fighting+5s will feel they're too debuffed to contribute. I think the Homecoming team has always been fair and reasonable, so I am excited to see what they settle on.

[America's Angel]

46 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

[P]layers with maxed out IOs and Incarnates literally play a different game than people who do not in terms of how much more effective they are. It takes away from engagement when the content you are facing can be mowed down by 1/8th of your team, so when you are all attacking as a group you can at times feel like you aren't contributing much. this effects different characters to varying degrees of course.

 

This just sounds like a description of a team of players of mixed ability levels and builds. If a casual player with a casual build joins a team of min/maxer tryhards, they're going to be left in the dirt. That's just haves vs have nots.

 

That same player has the option of min/maxing their build and learning how to play optimally. So I don't see any issue here.

Edited July 12, 2021 by America's Angel

[Twisted Toon]

5 minutes ago, America's Angel said:

 

This just sounds like a description of a team of players of mixed ability levels and builds. If a casual player with a casual build joins a team of min/maxer tryhards, they're going to be left in the dirt. That's just haves vs have nots.

 

That same player has the option of min/maxing their build and learning how to play optimally. So I don't see any issue here.

 

This is close to the thoughts that I keep coming to with topics like this.

There are vastly different play styles that are compatible with the current game...

just not with each other...on the same team.

 

For instance:

you have the min/maxers that will squeeze every ounce of power that they can manage out of a build and make 99% of the content irrelevant for them. (and then they complain that 99% of the game is irrelevant to them)

Then you have the very casual player that isn't really concerned with having Phenomenal Cosmic Power.

 

It would be difficult to design the game to accommodate both play styles functioning within the same team.

 

In short, what's easy for one person could be practically impossible for another.

If this were a PnP RPG, then none of this would be an issue, because the GM can adapt to situation on the fly to deal with both play styles at once.

Unfortunately, computers are a little more rigid in their processes, and don't really adapt as easily.

[BZRKR]

1 hour ago, Galaxy Brain said:

I mean, this is kind of the same idea as me saying "the other guys should do their own thing". Its a viable solution, but the root issue is there are a lot of folks that are put off  by the "norm" of what the game has become.

Then those people should self-identify, and team up to enjoy the game together. 

 

1 hour ago, Galaxy Brain said:

By running the show, I mean that players with maxed out IOs and Incarnates literally play a different game than people who do not in terms of how much more effective they are. It takes away from engagement when the content you are facing can be mowed down by 1/8th of your team, so when you are all attacking as a group you can at times feel like you aren't contributing much. this effects different characters to varying degrees of course.

I have to be missing some nuance, because this reads to me as: "I don't want to make a powerful character, and I don't want anyone else to make me feel less powerful."

 

I don't think that sweeping, systemic changes are needed to address what appears to be a self-imposed paradigm that prevents the very person who is doing this to themselves from enjoying the game.

[ScarySai]

4 hours ago, skoryy said:

I think I know an answer that I'm putting thoughts to works on, now that I re-rolled a scrapper project into a much more enjoyable blaster one.

 

Seems simple to me. In a game this alt friendly, after going through "the journey" so many times, you will want to eventually get it over with and go straight to the power spike.

 

Also, some builds aren't strong until IO'd and tend to not be great early game.

[roleki]

1 hour ago, Galaxy Brain said:

By running the show, I mean that players with maxed out IOs and Incarnates literally play a different game than people who do not in terms of how much more effective they are. It takes away from engagement when the content you are facing can be mowed down by 1/8th of your team, so when you are all attacking as a group you can at times feel like you aren't contributing much. this effects different characters to varying degrees of course.

 

But in a glass-half-full kind of way, random people running undercooked characters would give max+ support characters plenty of opportunities to feel like they are contributing!  

 

Just kidding... eh, kinda?

 

I, for one, think it's great that I might be on a team with somebody who has decided to forgo all the min/max crap while I'm over here fretting that I could only get my Rad/Fire brute to 89.53% S/L resistance.  

 

[golstat2003]

4 hours ago, skoryy said:

 

One thing we need to have a talk with on this is why is it so prevalent that players go to farms and PI and play ProgressQuest?  Actual leveling through content should be more fun, right?  And its not that hard!  And with double XP the bars go flying by in task forces!  So why do they don't think so?

 

I think I know an answer that I'm putting thoughts to works on, now that I re-rolled a scrapper project into a much more enjoyable blaster one.

 

Because there is only so many times that you can do the same quest or story line over and over again.

 

Keep in mind many of us have done then 10+ times on live. We're not going to do it again just to try new alts (or pvp).

 

EDIT: The low level content is in desperate need of a revamp (especially blue side). Some of it is terribly rewritten compared to the more moderns stuff created later in COH's life.

Edited July 12, 2021 by golstat2003

[Luminara]

4 hours ago, skoryy said:

Actual leveling through content should be more fun, right?  And its not that hard!  And with double XP the bars go flying by in task forces!  So why do they don't think so?

 

Miss streaks, endurance issues, gradually worse damage as one increases in level (powers don't deal less damage, but critter HP and mitigation increases while unslotted or poorly slotted damage remains consistent), limited access to powers due to lack of sufficient recharge buffs/enhancements, slow movement speeds, dislike of the feeling of being "weak" after having played a character at 50+, lack of interest in lowest level content, impatience (either played through the low level content hundreds of times, or new and wanting to run with the big dogs rather than be stuck at the bottom for weeks)... any or all of the above.

 

I don't power-level my characters, I don't team, I don't farm, I usually don't twink (have on a couple of occasions) and I don't use the P2W buffs, so I'm pretty intimate with the shortcomings of the low level game.  It's frustrating, it feels underwhelming and for some people, it's not enjoyable (this is a combat-oriented action MMORPG.  sucking at combat shouldn't even be a possibility, much less so assured that there are mechanics in place (Beginner's Luck) and P2W buffs to fix that problem).  That's why I play the market with every character, to make enough inf* to plug the holes on low level characters.

[oedipus_tex]

2 hours ago, America's Angel said:

 

This just sounds like a description of a team of players of mixed ability levels and builds. If a casual player with a casual build joins a team of min/maxer tryhards, they're going to be left in the dirt. That's just haves vs have nots.

 

That same player has the option of min/maxing their build and learning how to play optimally. So I don't see any issue here.

 

 

The Level Shift is a hard lean. It's not IOs or build or investment really, its just a level spread that halves the damage of some team members.

 

I wonder if I proposed this differently if it would get more takers: Have super-sidekicked players sidekick equal to the level of the leader instead of one level lower. That would even out the spread. You'd still have players who are ahead or behind, but not such a hard lean. You could also then safely reintroduce +4 enemies for players who are Level Shifted and want to extend that far, because then the teammates are fighting +5s and not +6s.

 

Alternative 2: When sidekicked by a player who is Level Shifted your level is one level below their adjusted level, not their "real level." Same result, different strat.

Edited July 12, 2021 by oedipus_tex

[Blackbird71]

1 hour ago, oedipus_tex said:

Alternative 2: When sidekicked by a player who is Level Shifted your level is one level below their adjusted level, not their "real level." Same result, different strat.

 

I was thinking along those lines; take the level shifts into account for sidekicking purposes and it should put mixed teams on more even footing for advanced difficulty settings.

[Myrmidon]

5 hours ago, Blackbird71 said:

 

You miss my point.  I have a reason to run the content:  for the most part, I enjoy the content, and I want to play what I enjoy.  But most of the PI contact missions are just not engaging the way that earlier story arcs are.  

 

When you can fly over the mission map, find all the objectives, and clear the map in under 5 minutes, it's not mechanically interesting.  And when the missions are completely repetitive and don't seem to string together into any sort of cohesive story, they share the same failings as radio missions without as much benefit.

Change the paper missions to Alignment missions and this is pretty much how I tend to run most solo play in this range. I certainly wouldn’t be opposed be bringing able to choose from the entire gambit of those in some future update.

[Biff Pow]

Thor: "Too easy! Up the challenge!"

 

Hawkeye: "please no"

[Luminara]

23 minutes ago, Supertanker said:

Thor: "Too easy! Up the challenge!"

 

Hawkeye: "please no"