Determining if the Game is Too Easy

[Bill Z Bubba]

8 minutes ago, Cobalt Arachne said:

What's important is players having the ability to opt up or down depending on their preference so that people who enjoyed previous content where it currently is can continue to do so.

 

One thing I hope is being kept in mind by the dev team, as mentioned earlier, is that heightened difficulty and challenge *should* include heightened reward.

[Sovera]

1 minute ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

One thing I hope is being kept in mind by the dev team, as mentioned earlier, is that heightened difficulty and challenge *should* include heightened reward.

 

Just to comment on your signature and the crusade you're still on, and because it sort of tangentially rubs elbows with the thread: it was common to see 5 and 7 minute Scrappers in pylon tests. Even nowadays we still find some new arrival full of vigor and their homebrewed build with their 4-5 minutes pylon runs.

 

Considering the lowest output Scrapper is probably some sort of Elec Melee/Invul VS a Bio/EM Tanker your signature is sort of completely ridiculous.

[Bill Z Bubba]

6 minutes ago, Sovera said:

Just to comment on your signature and the crusade you're still on, and because it sort of tangentially rubs elbows with the thread: it was common to see 5 and 7 minute Scrappers in pylon tests. Even nowadays we still find some new arrival full of vigor and their homebrewed build with their 4-5 minutes pylon runs.

 

Considering the lowest output Scrapper is probably some sort of Elec Melee/Invul VS a Bio/EM Tanker your signature is sort of completely ridiculous.

 

Only because you've become accustomed to the ridiculousness of 3 minute tanker pylon times. Tanks used to have to pay for their extra mitigation through sucktacular damage output. This is no longer the case and completely disgusting. Nerf 'em. Hard and with extreme prejudice.

 

Edit: And yes, if that means nerf the +damage from shield or bio, do it, across the board.

Edited July 10, 2021 by Bill Z Bubba

[Yomo Kimyata]

16 minutes ago, Cobalt Arachne said:

Setting difficulty should be a choice that means something.

 

 

Thanks for this post, especially the above sentence.  Some buffs only affect individuals (playing at -1 or +4, on their settings) and their teams.  I beg you to carefully consider system-wide changes that make play easier -- some people would love it and some would hate it, but there would be no way to opt out so it would be simplified for everyone.  I'd much rather have those who wish for it to be able to play at -2 than for me to have to play at +4, enemies buffed, no inspirations, blindfolded, and left pawed in order to enjoy it.  That last part is, of course, an exaggeration.  Thanks!

[Xiddo]

On 7/9/2021 at 9:51 PM, Coyotedancer said:

You can always exemp and run with mid-level teams... That's what I built my support characters to do, since the end-game types don't really need them. 'No Judgements or Destiny buffs to worry about when you're going after the Envoy of Shadows or such.

 

Love this!

Was doing some low-late 20s redside arcs on my PB and it was so fun (I think it’s the first time I’ve ever had the “man/woman in black” badge without hunting). We had a team wipe doing a mayhem mission in Steel cos the Longbow kept coming. Was great. Regrouping inside the jail, exploding out and storming the bank. 
 

I’ve found myself avoiding the 35+ content recently, I especially avoid late 40s unless I wanna do a quick bash. Judgements pinging around can sometimes make it a little

dull.

So much of this chat is really “is the game too easy at level 50?”. Head into a +1/2 team in first ward (or any of gold side), or the WWD arc vs the Ruluaru (sp?) shin guys, or the first WWD arc vs the Ig monsters in the hollows and it is a treat.

[oedipus_tex]

32 minutes ago, Cobalt Arachne said:

Perhaps it is more accurate to say there are no plans to retroactively adjust the difficulty floor, but the ceiling, that's a different matter. What's important is players having the ability to opt up or down depending on their preference so that people who enjoyed previous content where it currently is can continue to do so.

 

 

That's very exciting to hear. Thank you for sharing this update, I look forward to hearing more.

[Monos King]

Just now, Xiddo said:

So much of this chat is really “is the game too easy at level 50?”. Head into a +1/2 team in first ward (or any of gold side), or the WWD arc vs the Ruluaru (sp?) shin guys, or the first WWD arc vs the Ig monsters in the hollows and it is a treat.

I try my best to steer away from the conversations that are that discussion, because it is very much not what is being examined in this thread. Some of that will leak in inevitably since the subject of difficulty is apart of it, but I want to emphasize that that isn't my goal here. Looking at progression as a whole is, and the impact of said progression. Once we're maxed out the game will be easy, and as Faultline noted, this is the case in all games. But being able to become that powerful isn't an issue, it's awesome. It's just that getting there is so guaranteed, that the consequences of said power (IOs, attuned IOs, incarnates) trickle into lower content. 

 

You're not wrong, though. The praetorian enemies are far more challenging to navigate, as are rularuu. Vanguard Sword is one of my personal favorite, those guys are beasts. And lower level content on it's own doesn't have the biggest offender (incarnates) so it's still an experience that has a good panel of obstacles.

[Xiddo]

23 minutes ago, Monos King said:

I try my best to steer away from the conversations that are that discussion, because it is very much not what is being examined in this thread. Some of that will leak in inevitably since the subject of difficulty is apart of it, but I want to emphasize that that isn't my goal here.

Fair enough boss. I didn’t mean to suggest thats what you meant, but how I feel some people are viewing this and why some - certainly in other versions of this chat - get offended. 

I do agree. The progression curve is pretty sharp. But the beast is out of the box, I worry.

 

I remember my first IO’d, incarnated, plant/kin troller on live: Sapp. I got him all dressed up, did an itrial, and absolutely hated it. I logged out after and only came back for the last day. I couldn’t see the challenge. And I didn’t have the patience/time to do it all again. I’d been playing since I was like 14? And I stopped during uni aged 20.

I think part of that feeling is true now. I don’t have the same time like I used to. Some of my fondest times in CoX were the slog. But I also didn’t have much else to do except old Posi. Now I’ve got a job, a partner, a bit more of a life, so while I agree the game is easy or not the most challenging: is that such a bad thing? I wanna chat rubbish, shoot baddies, and look badass in a cape.

 

Someone earlier suggested the incarnate powers should only be there from 49+, I agree. Excited at some of the dev comments too. New stuff is fun. This game is rad.

 

For what it’s worth, this feels like one of the more sensible versions of this chat we’ve all had.

Edited July 10, 2021 by Xiddo

[Bill Z Bubba]

17 minutes ago, Monos King said:

Looking at progression as a whole is, and the impact of said progression.

 

Standard progression isn't an issue. Not even with SOs at lvl 1. Not even with all the teleporters. If you don't have double XP turned on, if you haven't purchased 8 hours of amplifiers, if you're not constantly stocking yourself with T3/T4 inspirations, there's absolutely nothing wrong with the ride from 1 to 50, solo or teamed.

 

Course.... I don't do that anymore. I PL an alt to 50 in around 2.5 hours in AE, I spend another hour or so getting the initial build done in Mids, another 30 minutes unlocking PPP, then another hour slotting it out fully with its lvl 50 IO build. 4 hours of actual gameplay from 0 to a fully tricked out lvl 50 build. And thanks to all the emps/transcendents I have available, even T4ing said alt isn't that much of a hassle. Call it another 8 hours of farming Heather's arc if need be.

 

This.. compared to the 4 months it took Bill Z Bubba to hit 50 the first time around, while I was between jobs and gaming 16-18 hours a day cuz I could.

 

Standard leveling progression is fine. The problem is how few people choose to go that route because the other routes to get it done are soooo much faster.

[ScarySai]

The game is easy for three reasons: One - we've had almost ten years to plan out insane builds were the game to come back during that post-shutdown era. As classic WoW proved, when you give players enough time to plan out how to max out an old game, they're going to make it easy by having maxed out, god level characters.

 

Two: The game was designed in an era where keyboard turning and clicking wasn't all that frowned upon/rare, still. Moreso, the game was initially made for relatively small pulls before it adapted into the dynasty warriors level god-slaying carnage it is now.

 

Three: Purples and glad IOs are really easy to get, it used to cost inf cap just to get one FOTG or glad armor proc back in the day, now it barely costs more than a few rare salvage drops.

 

The best way forward is adding new content that's also difficult, or updating existing content to have more gimmicks, I personally wouldn't mind Council re-gaining it's shapeshifting and robotic presence that it just kinda randomly loses once you hit the 40s.  But I suppose that's another discussion.

 

I'm 100% against nerfing things just for being strong. Fire/fire blasters for example, are damage gods - but that's pretty much all they do.

 

 

[Monos King]

1 minute ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

Standard leveling progression is fine. The problem is how few people choose to go that route because the other routes to get it done are soooo much faster.

This is true, and it's only expected considering human nature. You want to use what's available to you, why wouldn't you. And it plays back into the idea of dominant strategy earlier discussed (you'd want to scroll down on that link) where it's only natural you do what is most effective. 

 

Standard progression would probably also not include getting attuned IOs as you level and accruing mighty stats by only level 30, but that's actually very common now. Amplifiers are also about as guaranteed as enhancements, as are pay2win temps, so it would make as much sense not to get them as it would to not enhance. As such, here we are.

 

I'm going to admit one thing though, I really hate PvP IOs dropping outside of PvP. That really sucks to me, for a variety of reasons. I wish they didn't. It also plays into what we're talking about here, those PvP unique are pretty powerful. But if I'm being honest, that one I hate primarily just because it deincentivized one of the lead reasons to step into PvP.

[Monos King]

33 minutes ago, Xiddo said:

so while I agree the game is easy or not the most challenging: is that such a bad thing? I wanna chat rubbish, shoot baddies, and look badass in a cape.

I think it works to most of the players benefit, if what you said now is any indication. That being said, I would like to keep exploring options to ensure the sense of meaningful role in groups, even the powerful ones. That way we'll have new content that's both different, and enjoyable for a part of the population that might've otherwise found it not so enjoyable. 

 

Posts like yours are a gentle reminder that not everyone is challenge obsessed though, and helps keep everyone in check respectfully. Appreciate the responses!

[DougGraves]

The game is too easy if people are not almost getting defeated every other spawn.  And someone gets defeated every mission. 

[SaintD]

Internet neckbeards who have played a game completely inside and out for thousands, possibly even tens of thousands, of hours, complain that the game is too easy for them - The Thread

You know how World of Warcraft is basically a hollowed out whale carcass that's been iterated and expanded with the same raids, warmed over criminally bad writing, and 'endgame' content endlessly over almost two decades to retain an ever shrinking group of 'fans' who actually pay money to shred something new in about four seconds because they've played WoW so much they can pretty much see the code like an operator watching the Matrix? This thread is that, except no-one is making any money so why in the actual hell is anyone giving the whales even so much as their breath?

Boredom, I suppose.

Is the game too easy? ....no. No it isn't. It's no easier than any other game I play. It's harder than Minecraft, the best selling game of all time. Don't see how it's any easier than GTAV, a sandbox of utter idiocy, second bestselling game of all time. List kinda goes on like that. CoX isn't too easy. It's actually really difficult if you stupidly smash all the sliders to max.

Is the game too easy for you? You can't get anything out of playing anymore because you've thrashed every last pixel the game will render? Is it getting you down? You're done with the game. Congratulations. Grow up and accept the journey ended. The mountain doesn't just keep going up endlessly. You reach the top and when you're done with the view from there the only thing left is to go find another damn mountain.

Edited July 11, 2021 by SaintD

[ILIWAPCT]

4 hours ago, Cobalt Arachne said:

To clarify on my statement, as it's being quoted to the wrong effect here.

 

New methodology of increasing the difficulty are already built and in testing now, and in more engaging ways than just making numbers bigger.

 

As always, we're watching the feedback and are always looking for opportunities to improve existing content. When we approach adjustments, it will be with intent and in ways beyond purely stats.

 

Various elements have already proven that simply having bigger numbers alone does not engaging challenges make. (Keep in mind challenge is not strictly the same as difficulty, and the degree of punishing elements and accessibility play into what defines that.)

 

We're absolutely interested in giving the players a good challenge. The upcoming team content should be extremely difficult if players choose to play it on max difficulty. Setting difficulty should be a choice that means something.

 

Perhaps it is more accurate to say there are no plans to retroactively adjust the difficulty floor, but the ceiling, that's a different matter. What's important is players having the ability to opt up or down depending on their preference so that people who enjoyed previous content where it currently is can continue to do so.

The ceiling for each archetype is not the same, let's not lock out content to the Holy MMO Trinity. 

When the Servers went dark, changes were made to keep the game viable for a smaller population.

We're a niche and there is nothing wrong with that.

 

It's clear to me what the masses want.

All you see in game chat is requests for non-challenging Architect Farms. 

We play the game because it is fun, everyone finds different things fun, but most people are not masochist. 

 

 

[Infinitum]

6 hours ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

I honestly hope that's NOT true. Bad changes *should* be rolled back. Tanks *WERE* overbuffed and should be nerfed. P2W garbage made sense on the SSPS with its minimal invite-only playerbase but have no place here and should be purged. Being able to run around with a near infinite amount of T3-T4 insps in email *should* be blocked.

I'll continue to hope that sanity overrides the fear of player backlash.

Yet you can't back that up without cherry picking your testbed biased towards your goals.

 

Every time its a neutral test your claim is blown out of the water.

[Monos King]

2 hours ago, SaintD said:

This thread is that, except no-one is making any money so why in the actual hell is anyone giving the whales even so much as their breath?

Your opinion is appreciated. However, I also understand you probably haven't read this thread, as it very much is not any of that.

 

If you would like and are interested, I can try to go back and quote some of the major points.

[Wavicle]

41 minutes ago, ILIWAPCT said:

The ceiling for each archetype is not the same, let's not lock out content to the Holy MMO Trinity. 

 

That's not going to happen, don't worry about it.

[Snarky]

I just started a Stalker.  This is to solo every contact Redside.  Every story arc, every mission, until the contacts stop talking to me.  Everything.

 

Will I be hacked into little pieces or explode from space lasers as I play?  Who knows.  

 

Normally I do this on Brutes.  I never play Stalkers.  I honestly do not think it will be tough. Not as far as wondering if it can be completed on +0/x1 anyways.  It will be long.  I will learn something about Stalkers.

 

Will it be too easy?  Let me just ask you.  Have you lost what little of whatever sanity you started with that you have left?  

 

It is a video game.  The hardest part is the time investment.  And putting up with crazy people on the internet since it is a mmorpg.  You do the stupid things, kill some stupid NPCs, read some bad dialogue and move on.  It is a giant fidget toy.  

 

Barring someone coming into my room and serial killing me or aliens hitting my brain with a laser I do not expect this to be that tremendously difficult.  

 

My job.  That is hard.  Lifting weights. (my other hobby) that is hard.  

 

This is .... a VIDEOGAME.  

 

I swear you people are gonna give me apoplexy.

[DarionLeonidas]

I don't think the game itself is too easy, but I do think it's too easy to level up, acquire bonus powers, reach Incarnate level, etc., all of which makes the game too easy.

Just my two cents... but a lot of my in-game friends agree.

[wjrasmussen]

On 7/9/2021 at 5:13 AM, Monos King said:

My apologies, I would just prefer this thread stay on topic. I thought that since I did in fact say what you quoted, it would be very obvious that when I said "I didn't say any of that" it meant that you misinterpreted my meaning and motive. I hope it is now clear.

 

My question still remains for if you have an interest in the discussion.

You are dodging.  How about address the point he made about your point.

[Yomo Kimyata]

13 minutes ago, Snarky said:

 

Barring someone coming into my room and serial killing me

 

 

Unless your dark skills are stronger than I think, they can only kill you once!

[Monos King]

7 minutes ago, DarionLeonidas said:

I don't think the game itself is too easy, but I do think it's too easy to level up, acquire bonus powers, reach Incarnate level, etc., all of which makes the game too easy.

Just my two cents... but a lot of my in-game friends agree.

That is the position this thread has been primarily focused on breaking down, explaining, and remedying. I believe this is the 8th entire I'm saying this, but I also don't think the game being easy is bad; it's better for some of our delightfully weathered community. 

 

But it is also a problem for others, so looking at means to offset the actual problems easy progression creates (people feeling like they don't have worth in teams, people not feeling like rewards are worth anything because they came too easily) is worth doing.

 

5 minutes ago, wjrasmussen said:

You are dodging.  How about address the point he made about your point.

The thread has long progressed past this point, and there is not a point on it I have dodged. Snarky himself has moved on, and we have thought up some interesting ideas in the actual spirit of the thread. I will not humor this comment.

Edited July 11, 2021 by Monos King

[Snarky]

I do respect Monos King for moderating a lively thread.  Good job

 

i have moved on as he stated, correctly

 

although now the whole thread has me scratching my head.   Because seriously, how freaking hard dies it need to be?  Challenge yourself!  I see people doing crazy stuff like +4 ITF with death being auto quit.  I am doing (and have done) solo entire redside projects.  I farm (which is hard for me, too much like work).  Is the game too hard?   I am lost.  What the hell does that even mean?

[Monos King]

1 hour ago, ILIWAPCT said:

It's clear to me what the masses want.

All you see in game chat is requests for non-challenging Architect Farms. 

We play the game because it is fun, everyone finds different things fun, but most people are not masochist. 

This is natural, and a byproduct of both Nash Equilibrium and Dominant Strategy of Game Theory. As a result, doing anything else when these options are available quickly becomes "going out of your way", so I wonder if everyone actually enjoys those Architect farms, or just finds the rest of the game to be a hassle. I'll admit I do find that to be an immense shame, as there is a lot of content that makes the game special that is skipped over as a result of it. But people at the very least seem to like it, and that sort of things been staple since the game began, so I see it as fine.

 

1 hour ago, ILIWAPCT said:

We play the game because it is fun, everyone finds different things fun, but most people are not masochist. 

This is true. But a lot of players don't want to glide through content - more specifically they don't want to be carried through content. One of the recurring reasons easy progression is an issue for some is the lack of role efficacy; I.E. not feeling needed on teams. We're looking for ways to address that without intruding on people who like the game at it's existing level of "difficulty", while also offering some amount of tactic. Here's a brief recap of those.

 

1) Customizable Incarnates courtesy of @Snarky

In exchange for lowered strength, you can alter the stats (or even nature) of incarnates. This would be done via an accompanying "side" slot option, or perhaps via a different slot altogether, and may or may not require additional salvage to do so. Will be entirely mutually exclusive with ordinary incarnates.

 

2) Incarnate Alternatives (Breakthrough)

Similarly in exchange for much lower potency, the option for more thematic and versatile end-game augments that are also mutually exclusive with incarnates. These are more in line with strong temporary powers, and are perhaps unlockable separately via conventional (non incarnate) progression and crafting. Characters that take breakthroughs are not incarnates and can't become them, but will still have similar level shifts in trials so they can participate in them.

 

Through the use of appealing alternatives, content would not be as saturated with game breakingly powerful characters, mitigating concerns of feeling unneeded in teams.

 

3) Increased means of lateral progression courtesy of @Luminara

Engaging in certain content is increasingly incentivized via additions such as additional souvenirs and unlockable emotes. In my opinion these options shouldn't be put in Ouro (much like a vast amount of temporary powers) but that would need community review. This takes inspiration from the affect badge hunting sometimes has in content, and while people would probably still just skip over that content and revisit it at higher levels, it might still lower progression speeds. People also might just like the additions.

 

If players have more reason to slow the quick climb to extreme power, then lower content will be less saturated with those that have extreme power.

 

4) New mechanics or enemies

Mechanics that encourage thoughtful encounters amongst enemy groups would be one's that pretty much say "hey, you shouldn't just try to burst dmg these guys. There's more to it".

This could be things like holds that disable high resistances or auto powers(courtesy of @oedipus_tex), debuff auras, dual victory conditions, or other possibilities. Maybe even we could get endurance drain to be useful by facing enemies with a pesky ability than will deactivate if the enemy loses a certain amount of End. Obviously we wouldn't be creating encounters that REQUIRE other roles; it wouldn't become impossible to overcome a certain boss with just blasters, but it would become so much easier with a source of mez or a certain strategy that you would be a boon if you could provide these utilities. 

 

If certain roles can find greater use compared to DPS, extreme power will be less of something that renders others useless.

 

Some honorable mentions;

18 hours ago, oedipus_tex said:

My personal take on "more difficult" would have a starter template like this:

 

• The Level Shift that is provided at the Alpha Slot would be re-flagged so that it only applies in incarnate content, like Destiny and Lore currently do
• Reward tables would be shifted:
  • Fighting Level 53 enemies provided rewards previously provided for fighting Level 54 enemies
  • Fighting Level 54 enemies would provide somewhat more rewards than before

 

This accomplishes three things:

• Players could use the abilities provided by the game without locking themselves out of being able to easily access +4 challenge level. This is the "harder" part.
• Players would do not like this challenge could fight +3 enemies and retain the same rewards. This the "I'm not interested in forcing anyone to play my way" part.
• The spread of levels on teams is lowered. The sidekick'er would now only be one level higher than his or her sidekick'ed teammates, the same way the pre-end-game works. 

 

I don't personally have any interest in slowing people's progression or lowering rewards. In fact this change would mean people fighting at "true" +4 would be getting more rewards than currently, which they'd deserve, because the fights would be harder.

I would love to see this idea in a mostly preserved form once the kinks are worked out. As it stands, the big issue is certain TF enemies are fixed at 54, which would make those that don't have incarnates endure greater difficulty than before. If those were adjusted, I think this stands to have genuine community consideration.

 

6 hours ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

One thing I hope is being kept in mind by the dev team, as mentioned earlier, is that heightened difficulty and challenge *should* include heightened reward.

This isn't particular to the point of this thread, but quoted for truth. When things are made more difficult, there should be a little something extra to incentivize doing so.