Reusing Old Systems: Paragon Points (No real money)

[Replacement]

Paragon Points exist at the account level, and yet can grant character-level items to be collected.  That has a lot of potential!

 

Part 1: No P2W/RMT.  Duh.  Similar to how we are regularly granted server transfer tokens, the idea is just to put every account on a schedule, receiving x Paragon Points per y interval.  That could be 400/month like typical Premium subscribers used to... or it could be 2 points per week and all the costs could be rescaled from hundreds to single points (so even more like the server tokens).

This suggestion is not at all about asking for a paid subscription.  Just using the framework of the system.

 

Suggestion: I would consider clamping the MAX PP very low.  Instead of hoarders, we would be best-served having folks max out their point stores in 2 months or less and actively spending them (and thus remaining involved in the game).  We have no reason to encourage account-holding like the old "unused Gym membership" days.

 

Part 2: What is gained?  Controlled Rarity.

1. Points cannot be farmed, exploited, etc.  They come when they come in and no faster.  Due to the character-specific benefits, this isn't heavily exploitable with multiple accounts.
2. Since points are built up at the Account level but exchanged for Character Items, players must choose who gets the benefit, which allows the Homecoming to add content where they would normally say "we just don't want every single character running around with this."
3. The Rewards sheet can change reasonably easily.  There's always just mixing things up, but it also gives you the ability to phase in new options over time, and phase out options you've decided aren't good to keep in permanently (things that can affect the economy come to mind).
4. Items in the Paragon Store can be flagged as Repeatable... or not!  Truly unique things could be added by flagging as non-repeatable, though ideally this would be reserved for things that are in some way transferrable between characters, so they don't feel like they already "burned" their best decision.  An example would be a Winter IO.

 

Part 3: Examples

These are just ideas and their reasoning.  No need to imagine all of these would be included.

• Apply a custom title tint. - In case it's decided this shouldn't require direct GM intervention, this allows players a limited way of achieving their own tinted titles instead, though no custom title names would be included (probably).
• Unlock "potential problem" costume pieces - Specifically for costume items where there are concerns it could bring down the overall quality of the game (e.g. horrid clipping potential) if everyone's using it willy-nilly.  This allows a best-of-both-worlds approach:
  • If your character concept absolutely relies on the Widow Chest Detail (on a non-Widow) from level 1, you can wait a few weeks at most and buy it, build your character, and put it on at Ms. Liberty right up those stairs!
  • Homecoming doesn't have to worry about hosting City of That Solaris Dress Everyone Wants because it'll only go to the specific character you buy it for.
• Increase a character's Bio Description field - I imagine this would require a code change and not really be worth the effort, but it's a thought.
• Event IOs - A way to ease the burden on folks who do not farm.  Obviously has Economic implications that would need considered, but I imagine an extra winter every 1-4 weeks cannot meaningfully affect the amount of activity happening from folks with capped inf.
• NONREPEATABLE: Certain Named NPC Costume Pieces - I don't think Ms Liberty's Liberty Bell belt+sword is a good idea to include, but Swan's wings?  Manticore's crazy hair?  The only issue with this is that, while I like the idea of only one character per account having these, I think this would only make sense if there's a built-in way to revoke access to these items and validate they aren't in use on any costume slots before being able to reclaim on a different character.  There should never be a world where someone feels they need to start a new account because they claimed Penelope's suspenders on the wrong character.
• Level boost? - Obviously controversial, it would reduce the reliance on AE mapserver instances to be able to just be able to open up a package and gain enough XP to go from level 1 to 20 (or less.  Or more) every once in a while.
• Could replace the server tokens while we're at it, but if so these should still be very cheap and accessible.

 

I'm sure I haven't even thought about the best ideas, but there's a lot of potential here.  Paragon Shop doesn't need to mean cash, mtx exploitation, etc.  It can exist without it and provide some fun meta-toys.

 

Edited September 27, 2021 by Replacement

[ZacKing]

No thanks.  I like being able to purchase what I want when I want. most all items are part of a much needed inf sink too.  

[TheZag]

It would feel like when subscription games go 'free' to play and they restrict access to things that you used to have unless you 'pay' for it.  Players dont like having things taken away.  I know ive quit at least 3 games that have done this.

 

Not saying that this is the exact same but it will feel very similar.  Implement it with adding new stuff,  not by taking anything away.

[Shenanigunner]

In a more general sense, there are already far too many "currencies" involved in this gameconomy. I'd prefer to see them reduced (to Inf and Merits) rather than expanded.

[Glacier Peak]

I'll reserve final judgement until the idea is more developed. I'm on the fence at the moment though because of what has been suggested the points could be spent on. As long as anything that is purchased with said points is also available any other way, then that's acceptable to me. If there is anything that's only accessible using this method, that's a no for me. 

[Replacement]

This adds more ways to attain things, removes literally nothing, and adds avenues to include things we would never "naturally" see.

 

An occasional extra event IO doesn't take it away from elsewhere.

 

A general new costume piece would still be added to the creator directly; this is for those that we don't have enabled because they're just a bit too low quality to go into regular circulation, like untintable shoulder pieces or neat pieces that "can clip with other options" even though we have plenty already.

 

@Glacier Peak regrettably, I believe a mechanism like this is the only way we would ever see some of the more limited npc costume pieces. A good example would be Borea's V-shaped vest thing. It's an interesting chest piece, but we'll never see it given to everyone because it's too easy to interfere with shoulder pieces. By turning this into a choice about which character you'll put it on, you (hopefully) decrease the likelihood of people just making horrid decisions that make the overall game look worse to passive observers. All other benefits - yes, there is no reason to remove these from other aspects of the game. They only add options.

 

[Glacier Peak]

I'm convinced that there are lots of players who want access to NPC costume pieces. What I'm not convinced of is that there is enough volunteer time and effort available to make it happen, only for that hard work to be accessible only in one way. Like you said though, to create the exclusivity, it would need to be less accessible. I was so excited when I first logged on to Homecoming and every costume piece was already unlocked. That's coming from a player who has slowly collected nearly every badge and finished every story arc red, gold, and blue side. Playing is the reward for me and I'm not convinced that points would make the reward better. 

Edited September 28, 2021 by Glacier Peak
Words

[WanderingAries]

2 hours ago, Shenanigunner said:

In a more general sense, there are already far too many "currencies" involved in this gameconomy. I'd prefer to see them reduced (to Inf and Merits) rather than expanded.

 

This, as the game progressed on live, it quickly started to gain currencies that caused confusion and strife. When they first introduced the points, that's when you started to notice a change in the game's backend efforts. As if that was the point that we should have known it was going down. Like they were doing this to soften the blow before the random sunset announcement. If anything, I think we should work to consolidate what Does exist within reason.

[DreadShinobi]

No thanks.

 

P2W vendor in game is plenty suitable to be expanded on with extra goodies, costume pieces, temp powers, etc without needing to add an additional system.

[RCU7115]

CoH Rebirth,  NO Thank You. 

[Vanden]

Leandro said that he ripped out all the store and P2W code during the SCoRE days with extreme prejudice, so I don't think there's any old systems in Homecoming's branch for them to even use.

[Greycat]

8 hours ago, Replacement said:

 

@Glacier Peak regrettably, I believe a mechanism like this is the only way we would ever see some of the more limited npc costume pieces. A good example would be Borea's V-shaped vest thing. It's an interesting chest piece, but we'll never see it given to everyone because it's too easy to interfere with shoulder pieces. By turning this into a choice about which character you'll put it on, you (hopefully) decrease the likelihood of people just making horrid decisions that make the overall game look worse to passive observers. All other benefits - yes, there is no reason to remove these from other aspects of the game. They only add options.

 

 

Discussed elsewhere, that's not the only reason some of those costume pieces aren't available. Some flat out *do not work* with player characters. They're custom-mangled for specific NPCs, "bleed over" into other areas, etc.

 

There are actual technical reasons we don't have some of them that go beyond clipping.

 

Aside from that, no, I do not think locking or limiting a costume piece is a good thing at *all.* Just like it was frustratingly stupid to have "My character is a Vanguard such-and-such," but having to grind V-merits to get costume pieces (only available on that character, and not at creation,) this would just be an annoying, arbitrary limitation. People get inspired for characters by costume pieces, among other things, and should be able to use them, not be "The Rocketeer, but right now just a guy with a leather jacket and guns because he can't get a rocket pack or helmet yet."

[Replacement]

3 hours ago, Greycat said:

 

Discussed elsewhere, that's not the only reason some of those costume pieces aren't available. Some flat out *do not work* with player characters. They're custom-mangled for specific NPCs, "bleed over" into other areas, etc.

 

There are actual technical reasons we don't have some of them that go beyond clipping.

Many, or even most, yes.  Some are just too exclusive.  But you can fire up titan in npc mode to see some of these (remember to play with sliders too. Many only work well at default).

 

There are still many many pieces that work in enough configurations that I want them enabled, but general dodginess in responses leads me to believe Homecoming doesn't want them cast out for all.

 

3 hours ago, Greycat said:

Aside from that, no, I do not think locking or limiting a costume piece is a good thing at *all.* Just like it was frustratingly stupid to have "My character is a Vanguard such-and-such," but having to grind V-merits to get costume pieces (only available on that character, and not at creation,) this would just be an annoying, arbitrary limitation. People get inspired for characters by costume pieces, among other things, and should be able to use them, not be "The Rocketeer, but right now just a guy with a leather jacket and guns because he can't get a rocket pack or helmet yet."

 

The alternative is not having them as a choice at all for the npc parts, and less ways of accessing them for the other benefits. 

 

Literally, every response to this thread that is "I reject it for not being totally open" is like saying "I reject your free slice of pizza because you didn't also give me the restaurant."

 

I realize it may not be clear, but there is nothing in the OP that insinuates new content, for example, should be locked to this.  Nothing at all.  This suggestion is for things where "totally open" just isn't an option. A compromise that can bring some engagement.

Edited September 28, 2021 by Replacement
Phrasing

[UltraAlt]

19 hours ago, Replacement said:

Paragon Points exist at the account level, and yet can grant character-level items to be collected.  That has a lot of potential!

 

This does not exist nor does it need to exist.

This sort of thing was intentionally removed by Homecoming.

 

It is not something that is needed to improve the player experience.

DEVs have plans that they are focusing on.

 

The majority of players do not need things added to the game that grant a few players what they would consider to be an Elite status.

A good bit of what would lead players to take an Elitist stance have been removed on the Homecoming Servers. I think that was a good decision.

[Replacement]

19 minutes ago, UltraAlt said:

 

This does not exist nor does it need to exist.

This sort of thing was intentionally removed by Homecoming.

 

It is not something that is needed to improve the player experience.

DEVs have plans that they are focusing on.

 

The majority of players do not need things added to the game that grant a few players what they would consider to be an Elite status.

A good bit of what would lead players to take an Elitist stance have been removed on the Homecoming Servers. I think that was a good decision.

The only way for this to lead to elitism is for you to fail to understand what was proposed.

 

Unless you think "account is 60 days old" is elite status, I guess. I will extend to you the grace you deprived me by explaining:

 

I suggested 2 months to cap points or less, in part because that ensures there is nothing that costs more than that. In turn, this destroys any sense of "veteran" rewards.  Just the choices you made.

 

If you still think this would lead to have/have-nots, you'll have to expressly describe how, because I'm 99% sure it's assuming a position I'm not making.

[Shenanigunner]

I don't think elitism has any more to do with this than the other forty-'leven end-game 'currencies.'

 

It just strikes me as (1) unnecessary; (2) moving in the wrong direction from simplifying the game economy; and (3) "Hey, it's there, let's do something with it!"

[UltraAlt]

47 minutes ago, Replacement said:

The only way for this to lead to elitism is for you to fail to understand what was proposed.

 

I think you just proved my point that it does lead to elitism.

You apparently don't understand where I'm coming from on this.

That's okay. You don't have to.

 

47 minutes ago, Replacement said:

Unless you think "account is 60 days old" is elite status, I guess. I will extend to you the grace you deprived me by explaining:

 

A belittling statement that you use to prove (to yourself) your "Elite" status.

 

47 minutes ago, Replacement said:

I suggested 2 months to cap points or less, in part because that ensures there is nothing that costs more than that. In turn, this destroys any sense of "veteran" rewards.  Just the choices you made.

 

A point cap isn't a limit.

A player would still gain more points over time as you spend them to gain Elite rewards based on what you have stated.

 

It is a waste of Development time.

 

As I said, you apparently don't understand where I'm coming from on this.

That's okay. You don't have to.

 

You have made your point and I have made mine.

I have no need to further discuss this. You won't change my mind.

 

 

Edited September 28, 2021 by UltraAlt

[Replacement]

30 minutes ago, Shenanigunner said:

I don't think elitism has any more to do with this than the other forty-'leven end-game 'currencies.'

 

It just strikes me as (1) unnecessary; (2) moving in the wrong direction from simplifying the game economy; and (3) "Hey, it's there, let's do something with it!"

Best argument yet.  Appreciated.

[Triumphant]

11 hours ago, Vanden said:

Leandro said that he ripped out all the store and P2W code during the SCoRE days with extreme prejudice, so I don't think there's any old systems in Homecoming's branch for them to even use.

 

Regardless of the pros and cons, this makes the OP's suggestion irrelevant.  

[Shenanigunner]

4 minutes ago, Triumphant said:

Regardless of the pros and cons, this makes the OP's suggestion irrelevant.  

 

And when has that ever mattered in these discussions? 🤣

[Triumphant]

5 minutes ago, Shenanigunner said:

 

And when has that ever mattered in these discussions? 🤣

 

Okay, you got me there, amigo.  😛

[Replacement]

12 minutes ago, Triumphant said:

 

Regardless of the pros and cons, this makes the OP's suggestion irrelevant.  

 

7 minutes ago, Shenanigunner said:

 

And when has that ever mattered in these discussions? 🤣

 

Well, because it's not true.  The fact that it's there on the other servers, who got all their code from SCoRE, tells us as much.  It's a couple of simple Definition files (you can even edit them in notepad).  The lion's share of the work would be in creating the reward codes and tables we already use elsewhere.

 

EDIT: to be clear, that WOULD be significant work to set it all up.

Edited September 28, 2021 by Replacement

[Shenanigunner]

2 minutes ago, Replacement said:

The fact that it's there on the other servers, who got all their code from SCoRE, tells us as much.  It's a couple of simple Definition files (you can even edit them in notepad).  The lion's share of the work would be in creating the reward codes and tables we already use elsewhere.

 

I wouldn't be against this, even comments above and exasperation with eight world currencies in mind, if it's a fun, egalitarian, non-essential addition.

 

That is, not yet one more thing for the mega-max players to co-opt and obsess over. Keep it... silly and amusing to even lowbies.

[Replacement]

Just now, Shenanigunner said:

 

I wouldn't be against this, even comments above and exasperation with eight world currencies in mind, if it's a fun, egalitarian, non-essential addition.

 

That is, not yet one more thing for the mega-max players to co-opt and obsess over. Keep it... silly and amusing to even lowbies.

I can get behind this. The moment it feels like a daily, even I don't want it.

[Triumphant]

I neither object to the idea, nor endorse it.  It just doesn't interest me, per-say.

 

As an aside, I noticed you mentioned exploits in your OP.  I wouldn't worry about that.  What can can you possibly exploit in a game where everything is free and all players have equal access to the same things?  Who could possibly be disenfranchised, with regard to play enjoyment/experience, when we all get access to the same powers/items/upgrades?

 

The game should have a variety of content that will challenge full 8-person teams that make skillful use of all available options.  If it doesn't, what's the point of having all of those options available in the first place?