Nerf Level Shifts

[Doomguide2005]

 

24 minutes ago, Excraft said:

 

I see a lot of bickering about setting TFs to hard mode or not coming with this.

Nah, the bi#$&%ing will be because it wasn't declared.  Just like currently the complaint is they joined expecting a kill most/all and found it was a speed run (or vice versa).  Hard/not hard will be just one more box for the Star to check off in the lfg message (and for folks to look for).

 

I hope. 

[macskull]

38 minutes ago, Excraft said:

 

I'll reserve my judgement until this is on BETA and can be thoroughly tested.  We've been burned badly before with promises of one thing that gets replaced with another thing that isn't at all desirable or welcomed.  This sounds interesting, however I'm extremely cautious of the implementation.  What you all define as "unfair" or "playing poorly" can be very different than what others consider it to be.  I'm leery this is going to try and corral people into a specific, scripted style of play with specific team makeup to handle encounters.  That isn't fun and it's what WoW is for.  Also, parroting that support and control has no value at higher levels I think is an over exaggeration and always has been. 

 

I see a lot of bickering about setting TFs to hard mode or not coming with this.

I wouldn't be too worried about this.

 

EDIT: The first paragraph, not the second one. As far as bickering about hard mode vs not, as long as team leaders clearly state what their plan is I don't think that'll be a big deal either.

Edited October 1, 2021 by macskull

[Glacier Peak]

46 minutes ago, Excraft said:

 

I'll reserve my judgement until this is on BETA and can be thoroughly tested.  We've been burned badly before with promises of one thing that gets replaced with another thing that isn't at all desirable or welcomed.  This sounds interesting, however I'm extremely cautious of the implementation.  What you all define as "unfair" or "playing poorly" can be very different than what others consider it to be.  I'm leery this is going to try and corral people into a specific, scripted style of play with specific team makeup to handle encounters.  That isn't fun and it's what WoW is for.  Also, parroting that support and control has no value at higher levels I think is an over exaggeration and always has been. 

 

I see a lot of bickering about setting TFs to hard mode or not coming with this.

I don't remember any examples of getting badly burned from promises like you're describing, could you provide a little clarity? I know a lot of things are play tested on the beta, and if the changes aren't working as intended, they are scaled back or removed entirely. 

[Wavicle]

1 hour ago, Excraft said:

 

Exemplared 50s with full sets of IOs or even SOs really are always going to outperform lower level characters using minimal slots and lower tier enhancements.  Same thing goes for a sidekicked lower level character.  There's actually quite a big gap there.

 

That's right, there is. And so it's not a good idea to have systems that add even more large gaps.

[macskull]

48 minutes ago, Glacier Peak said:

I don't remember any examples of getting badly burned from promises like you're describing, could you provide a little clarity? I know a lot of things are play tested on the beta, and if the changes aren't working as intended, they are scaled back or removed entirely. 

The /enterbasefrompasscode changes/LRT rework, travel power rework, and Sorcery rework come to mind as being pretty polarizing. I didn't really have a horse in the race for that last one but at least for the first two the majority of players correctly saw them as buffs after a while. I think some other examples of "things getting tweaked or rolled back" include some Dark Melee and Martial Arts changes and changes to the way the Rage crash works.

 

That being said... the new difficulty stuff is being tested, and it'll get more testing when it shows up on the beta server.

[twozerofoxtrot]

3 hours ago, macskull said:

and changes to the way the Rage crash works.

 

Woof. Now there's an example to hold up high.

[EnjoyTheJourney]

14 hours ago, Cobalt Arachne said:

Hard mode enemies will have higher baselines stats, but nothing unfair and no absolutes. Nothing like big special damage types or auto-hits.

That being said, in a state of the game where a Defender can soft cap S/L/E defense with four power choices and minimal slotting investment, a new baseline was needed so that enemies can actually threaten players and was a requirement, but there is some new nuance and specifics regarding that, it will make more sense when the content is available on Brainstorm.

Keep in mind that enemies that cannot in any meaningful way threaten a team of players means control and support roles have absolutely no value. Enemies will be dangerous again, but playing poorly is the real killer. In testing the primary culprit of most deaths was the team splitting and aggroing too many mobs at once.

 

Taking a step back and looking at the game as it is now, enemies not being a threat to players probably has mostly to do with high end character builds doing speedrun TFs set to lower notoriety levels. But, there already exists multiple groups of players who deliberately seek out challenges in the game, just as there is another set of groups of players who do low-to-no challenge speedruns. And, for the players who deliberately seek out challenges support substantially increases a team's chances of success. Control also plays a valuable role.

 

With new content and/or difficulty modes that get created players will probably continue to self-sort in the same way as listed above. Those who prefer low-to-no difficulty speedruns will continue to find ways to enjoy the game the way they want. Neither support nor control will matter in the future for those who prefer to play the game that way, just as things are today. And, those who prefer challenge will continue to enjoy the game the way they want, as well. For those players control and support will remain important, as they are now. Essentially, the frequency with which control and support play an important role in endgame play will still boil down to player preferences, in the end. 

 

New content and new game modes are likely to still be a significantly positive change for the game. Thank you for caring about the game to do the work needed to make this happen. 

 

Circling back to the OP, unsigned on the idea of nerfing level shifts. Players have the option to set their own challenges already and it seems clear that the dev team intends to make choosing higher difficulty content even easier, going forward. 

 

 

Edited October 1, 2021 by EnjoyTheJourney

[Industrious1]

Excited for the new content and new ways to challenge the playerbase.

 

Had the sinking feeling of spinning tires for the last year or so and it appears this was also on the devs minds as well.  There will always be elements of any community that are hesitant to shake up the status quo but all progress requires change and adaptation and i'd say this game is due for a dose of both.   For me personally that is a big thumbs up...now for the waiting.  

[ZacKing]

7 hours ago, macskull said:

The /enterbasefrompasscode changes/LRT rework, travel power rework, and Sorcery rework come to mind as being pretty polarizing.

 

The base code thing is a great example of getting burned IMO.  Just my 2 inf.  

 

7 hours ago, Wavicle said:

That's right, there is. And so it's not a good idea to have systems that add even more large gaps.

 

Why are you expecting lower level characters with lower tier gear to be on par with higher levels that are better equipped?  Homogenizing everyone to be on the same level doesn't work either and makes the game boring.

 

8 hours ago, macskull said:

I wouldn't be too worried about this.

 

I kinda agree it's best to be very cautious about this.  It sounds ok, but really need to see it first.  

[Glacier Peak]

8 hours ago, macskull said:

The /enterbasefrompasscode changes/LRT rework, travel power rework, and Sorcery rework come to mind as being pretty polarizing. I didn't really have a horse in the race for that last one but at least for the first two the majority of players correctly saw them as buffs after a while. I think some other examples of "things getting tweaked or rolled back" include some Dark Melee and Martial Arts changes and changes to the way the Rage crash works.

 

That being said... the new difficulty stuff is being tested, and it'll get more testing when it shows up on the beta server.

Well, to be fair those changes were what the developers intended, they just weren't well received initially. And I'm not trying to be nit picky, but my question is meant to be rhetorical. The devs listen to player feedback, the end results may not be what everyone wants, but it's what they think is best for their version of the game. 

[Number Six]

13 hours ago, Doomguide2005 said:

 

Nah, the bi#$&%ing will be because it wasn't declared.  Just like currently the complaint is they joined expecting a kill most/all and found it was a speed run (or vice versa).  Hard/not hard will be just one more box for the Star to check off in the lfg message (and for folks to look for).

 

I hope. 

 

Not sure if it will be fully integrated in time for the initial release or if it will come in shortly after, but once the new system is in, it will be very obvious when hard mode is active. It'll show up as a special icon below the buff bar, like the no-death and time limit challenges do.

 

If someone starts an undeclared hard mode run without discussing it first it will be easy for people to quit before even going in the first mission.

[arcane]

18 hours ago, Cobalt Arachne said:

I wouldn't say it's an 'easy version' of hard mode. 

All the hard mode versions activate the 'hard mode' exclusive powers on the enemies, which is where the core of the difficulty comes from.

The primary difference between the three is that they will lock you into +2/x8, +3/x8, and +4/x8 respectively, regardless of team size and the overall enemy stat baseline increases with each level.

Thank you 🙂 that’s comforting because I initially thought you might be saying that you could do hard mode at +0.

[arcane]

7 hours ago, EnjoyTheJourney said:

 

Taking a step back and looking at the game as it is now, enemies not being a threat to players probably has mostly to do with high end character builds doing speedrun TFs set to lower notoriety levels.

I don’t think - at least I hope - that anyone saying the game is too easy is illogical enough to be saying that because of +0 speed runs. The problem is definitely much worse: that in fact +4 is too easy.

[Bionic_Flea]

1 hour ago, arcane said:

8 hours ago, EnjoyTheJourney said:

 

Taking a step back and looking at the game as it is now, enemies not being a threat to players probably has mostly to do with high end character builds doing speedrun TFs set to lower notoriety levels.

I don’t think - at least I hope - that anyone saying the game is too easy is illogical enough to be saying that because of +0 speed runs. The problem is definitely much worse: that in fact +4 is too easy.

It's a little bit of both, I think.  There are some people who have made murder-machines optimized to the nth degree that can solo +4/x8 TFs and they feel most things are too easy.  There are an even larger group of people that run full teams at +0;  a team of random PUGers at just about any level can steamroll through most content.  They also find stuff too easy.  Both groups of players could increase their challenge in different ways; some already do.  But what the devs are proposing with "Hard-Mode" is something that will make those murder machines stop and think, "maybe I should slow down and bring some friends."  While the +0 full teams might just think, "woah, these guys are tougher than Council."

[Mezmera]

2 hours ago, Number Six said:

 

Not sure if it will be fully integrated in time for the initial release or if it will come in shortly after, but once the new system is in, it will be very obvious when hard mode is active. It'll show up as a special icon below the buff bar, like the no-death and time limit challenges do.

 

If someone starts an undeclared hard mode run without discussing it first it will be easy for people to quit before even going in the first mission.

 

So long as its obvious enough that we're not caught off guard with our first inclination being stuck in some hive under some nuclear reactor with a bureaucratic general taking our bullets away from us then all will be fine.  I mean I can dish out some mighty harsh language if I need to but if these are truly going to be harder I'll want to prepare myself accordingly.  

 

All is well until things start coming outta the walls.  

Edited October 1, 2021 by Mezmera

[Excraft]

On 10/1/2021 at 12:47 AM, Wavicle said:

That's right, there is. And so it's not a good idea to have systems that add even more large gaps.

 

The answer is play more, get more levels and better gear so you're all on par with each other as equals, not crying for nerfs because you can't keep up.  Expecting everyone regardless of level or gear to be on even ground is a fantasy.  The Devs are handling this the correct way by adding options, not taking stuff away.  This hard mode they are talking about adding is more than likely to increase that gap between solid endgame IO builds and not.

 

 

[GM Impervium]

Just hid a bunch of posts.

It's okay to disagree, but when y'all start making it personal, it's time to step away.

Also hid one or two posts responding to the arguers, just because their posts now lack context.

As an aside, the current plan is, generally, to make Incarnate buffs meaningful in content going forward, not roll stuff back or take anything away. Though there might end up being an exception...

Edited October 3, 2021 by GM Impervium

[Galaxy Brain]

Agree here, the best course is always to add more than take away unless for whatever reason taking away ends up with a positive outcome (rare but it happens).

[arcane]

I think a lot will hinge on these hard mode rewards being worthwhile. One of the reasons (not the only reason) the self-gimp suggestions are so nonsensical is that they artificially increase difficulty with zero compensation.

Edited October 3, 2021 by arcane

[Mezmera]

9 hours ago, arcane said:

I think a lot will hinge on these hard mode rewards being worthwhile. One of the reasons (not the only reason) the self-gimp suggestions are so nonsensical is that they artificially increase difficulty with zero compensation.

 

Yeah I'd like to see a special reward if it's say the weekly and done on super duper hardcore mode that you get a buff that lasts the week or a month.  Then maybe you can tone down the p2w stuff a smidge.  

 

It could be something like the buff you get from completing the DA arc and take the power for yourself by killing that witch doctor lady.  That buff lasted me like 6 months and it was real nice.  Lasting a week may be a bit too short and it'd be neat to have some pretty unique buffs overlapping so maybe a buff that lasts 14 days of game time which'll probably net you a month's worth and you can only have 2-3 of those currently active.  

[Ruin Mage]

I think the 'hard mode' stuff can't reward anything super-duper cool (though this is by opinion and is not factual) - the game is limiting in what it rewards. Badges, merits, salvage, enhancements, and temp powers - that's the limit of it. HC won't lock costume pieces behind anything as far as I've heard. So the reward loop is gonna be...small.

If none of those things interest a person, then oh well.

[Wavicle]

2 minutes ago, Shadeknight said:

I think the 'hard mode' stuff can't reward anything super-duper cool (though this is by opinion and is not factual) - the game is limiting in what it rewards. Badges, merits, salvage, enhancements, and temp powers - that's the limit of it. HC won't lock costume pieces behind anything as far as I've heard. So the reward loop is gonna be...small.

If none of those things interest a person, then oh well.

 

Seems to me another source of badges, merits, salvage, enhancements, and temp powers is always welcome. 🙂 

But I agree, they probably won't have totally unique rewards besides badges, possibly temp powers, which is fine.

[Ruin Mage]

I'm sure no one will disagree there, but I could see a...couple issues that the forums would set themselves on fire over - which is how much something is rewarded. Specifically merits - but we'll have to see what happens when the next big patch hits Brainstorm.

[ZacKing]

Good to hear that new options are adding to the game not nerfing.  Folks thinking everyone should be the same on the same level regardless of level or build are just dead wrong.  There's gotta be a good enough incentive to play and pay for a game.  Yeah I know this game is free, speaking about games in general.

[Cobalt Arachne]

6 hours ago, Shadeknight said:

I think the 'hard mode' stuff can't reward anything super-duper cool (though this is by opinion and is not factual) - the game is limiting in what it rewards. Badges, merits, salvage, enhancements, and temp powers - that's the limit of it. HC won't lock costume pieces behind anything as far as I've heard. So the reward loop is gonna be...small.

There's a new reward category we're working on and there is one of these new rewards locked behind the newer difficulty in Page 3 (not a badge); We're aware of issues regarding meaningful reward diversity and we've got stuff being worked on. It won't appeal to everybody, but very little can that is able to be locked behind higher difficulty without it becoming something more casual players will feel forced to do.

There are also a number of challenge badges that can only be done in Hard Mode. But badge collecting is by its nature 'do everything', and these don't grant anything players will feel compelled to obtain for progression either.
 

 

6 hours ago, Shadeknight said:

I'm sure no one will disagree there, but I could see a...couple issues that the forums would set themselves on fire over - which is how much something is rewarded. Specifically merits - but we'll have to see what happens when the next big patch hits Brainstorm.

Doing Hard Mode will reward a much higher merit count than doing it normally, but even considering that, it still won't approach the time/merits/ease/efficiency of just running Heather Townshend's first Dark Astoria arc at -1 on repeat for 20 reward merits per complete.

There's little room to complain when the easiest current farming method for their time is a competitive option for far less effort. Getting a character to fully built in this game is currently extremely accessible no matter how you play.