SS/Inv-how bad is the Rage Crash?

[JnEricsonx]

I honestly don't remember, since the last time I had a SS/WP or SS/Inv character was over a decade ago, but I'd think the -20% def coupled with 5 seconds of no damage done has to hurt?

[Erratic1]

Per City of Data:

 

• • -20% Base Defense for 10s after 120s (self only) for 10s after 120s

    -25% Endurance after 120s (self only) after 120s

    -9990% Damage (All) Strength for 10s after 120s (self only) for 10s after 120s

     

[JnEricsonx]

I didn't think of it, and I was more asking for people's personal experiences.

[Erratic1]

40 minutes ago, JnEricsonx said:

I didn't think of it, and I was more asking for people's personal experiences.

 

I have a SS/Bio Brute and for 10s I don't do any damage when the crash hits. Other than that I don't notice it.

[Obus Form]

You gotta go through each crash to see what hurts you the most depending on your enemies in your vicinity or endurance at the time.

 

-20% base defense for 10 seconds. 

This hurts you if you're playing a defense-based armor set like Super Reflexes/Stone armor, or relying on defenses to mitigate your damage like using Dark Armor but stacking defense IO bonuses to reach 45% or 59% softcap.  Typically, players of resist-based armor sets like Radiation Armor and Dark Armor would aim for 90% resists + heals and forgo any defences.  Therefore, -20% defense doesn't really do much since defense wasn't really factored into their damage-mitigation plan.  You could also pop Barrier, chew 2 purples, or pop other heals/T9 powers to mitigate the -20% defense if the crash occurs mid-fight.  Assuming you don't need to tank the enemy for your team during your -20% defense, running away for 10 seconds is also a viable option. 

 

-25% Endurance. 

This can hurt if the -25% end also occurs with the -15% from Hasten's crash (both hasten and rage last for 120 seconds, thus, I often experience crashes at the same time) and/or occurs when enemies are about to hit you with -endurance attacks (carnie's death attack, sappers, freakshow electric-blast enemies).  You would be -40% endurance suddenly, and depending on your  endurance use by your attach chain or Armor Set, you could drop toggles.  Also, if you're fighting enemies who drain your endurance, you'll need to watch your buff timers to ensure your -25% and/or -15% endurance crashes don't coincide with enemy endurance drain attacks, or else you drop all toggles.  To combat the -25% endurance or -40% endurance from Rage + Hasten crash, you can simply run away from enemies, chew blues, or just don't attack until your endurance returns.  If you're afraid you'll drop toggles, pop Barrier

 

-9999% damage

When your -9999% damage occurs, you can still use attacks with procs because procs themselves will still do full damage (even while your actual attack does 1 damage) if the procs occur.  If you have no procs, just take a rest 🙂

 

 

[Hyperstrike]

On Inv/SS and SS/Inv, I build for at least Soft-Cap with NO enemies in range.
So if there's no enemies in range, maybe a problem.
 

But this is ALSO why I recommend buffing Resist as much as possible in your build too.
Basically to ensure you have the wherewithal to survive that 10 second burp.

[nihilii]

For me, the Rage Crash always hurts on anything that isn't a 65%+ defense SR Tanker. This is because even on a resistance build, going from 0% defense to -20% defense makes a strong difference in the hit rate of your foes.

 

(Plus, is anyone ever truly running 0% defense? I tend to hit ~20% through the glad+steadfast uniques, Weave, CJ, Maneuvers.)

 

Now the question can be... how *bad* can it hurt? If you build for overkill survivability, which many many tankers do, it might be that you will hardly notice the crash simply because your base mitigation is 10x if not 100x what you need for the challenges you face.

In terms of specific powersets, Invul isn't so bad to handle Rage crashes simply because you've got layered mitigation including defense, resistance and maxHP.

[Erratic1]

It may be more worthwhile to figure out the builds where the Rage crash is going to least impact you.

 

As I noted, on my SS/Bio brute the only part of it I notice is the damage hit. But I run him in Efficient stance so he's basically never low in endurance and so the hit isn't dangerous. Likewise Bio has layered defenses so the Defense hit is inconsequential since there is regen, absorption, and resistance to fall back on.

 

I have never played Willpower but I imagine it might be a good candidate for minimizing the Rage crash. So too Invulnerability if you could build to having enough endurance to never be low.

[Senbonbanana]

I notice it on my Inv/SS, but it's not crippling.  In fact, it's more annoying than anything.  Pop a blue and/or purple and keep on smashing face.

 

That being said, I hate the -damage portion.  I hated the -def on my SS/fire brute (going splat on him during rage crash wasn't uncommon, whereas on Inv/SS tank it is rare so far).  The -end can be fatal if you're not paying attention to how much of your blue bar is remaining.

[Aeroprism]

Answered the wrong topic. Yay me.

 

So rage crash?  Uh... rawr and stuff.  Raaaaaaawr.......<crash>

Edited November 14, 2021 by Aeroprism

[Snarky]

I played SS/Invul Brutes for a couple years on Live.  Redside.  First year mostly SOs.  When sidekicking meant being WAY below team level.  The RAGe crash is annoying.  Damned annoying.  But completely dealable with, especially on Invul.  Your toughest issue is actually the Endurance drop.  The enemies in most content cannot scratch Invul.  Once you get used to running it against most enemies then you will develop tactics for Carnies and BS like that.  

 

When the crash happens be ACTIVE.  Do inspiration management (combine/use) Open your map or look at it.  WTF is your team doing?  Use alternate attacks.  Anything that cannot be +damaged (Sands of Mu etc.) is also NOT affected by the damage drop.  use stun grenades from P2W vendor.  Use most of the syuff from p2W vendor.  Reposition.  those ten seconds are the perfect time to travel.  Move your butt to somewhere useful.  GL.

[Ultimo]

9 hours ago, Obus Form said:

You gotta go through each crash to see what hurts you the most depending on your enemies in your vicinity or endurance at the time.

 

-20% base defense for 10 seconds. 

This hurts you if you're playing a defense-based armor set like Super Reflexes/Stone armor, or relying on defenses to mitigate your damage like using Dark Armor but stacking defense IO bonuses to reach 45% or 59% softcap.  Typically, players of resist-based armor sets like Radiation Armor and Dark Armor would aim for 90% resists + heals and forgo any defences.  Therefore, -20% defense doesn't really do much since defense wasn't really factored into their damage-mitigation plan.  You could also pop Barrier, chew 2 purples, or pop other heals/T9 powers to mitigate the -20% defense if the crash occurs mid-fight.  Assuming you don't need to tank the enemy for your team during your -20% defense, running away for 10 seconds is also a viable option. 

 

-25% Endurance. 

This can hurt if the -25% end also occurs with the -15% from Hasten's crash (both hasten and rage last for 120 seconds, thus, I often experience crashes at the same time) and/or occurs when enemies are about to hit you with -endurance attacks (carnie's death attack, sappers, freakshow electric-blast enemies).  You would be -40% endurance suddenly, and depending on your  endurance use by your attach chain or Armor Set, you could drop toggles.  Also, if you're fighting enemies who drain your endurance, you'll need to watch your buff timers to ensure your -25% and/or -15% endurance crashes don't coincide with enemy endurance drain attacks, or else you drop all toggles.  To combat the -25% endurance or -40% endurance from Rage + Hasten crash, you can simply run away from enemies, chew blues, or just don't attack until your endurance returns.  If you're afraid you'll drop toggles, pop Barrier

 

-9999% damage

When your -9999% damage occurs, you can still use attacks with procs because procs themselves will still do full damage (even while your actual attack does 1 damage) if the procs occur.  If you have no procs, just take a rest 🙂

 

 

 

You'll still autotaunt on a Tanker, so if you're in a group, keep punching even if you're doing no damage.

[Biff Pow]

Invulnerability can handle the -Def well but if you're worried, hit Handclap and most enemies around you spend the drop getting up from the ground or stunned.

 

The -Damage is no fun but at least the Judgement powers work once you're Incarnate. Otherwise you can use the hit to Taunt and maybe re-position.

[Heraclea]

On a tanker, I wouldn't take any powers that hinder me in doing the job.  Roll Street Justice and like it. 

[Hyperstrike]

57 minutes ago, Heraclea said:

On a tanker, I wouldn't take any powers that hinder me in doing the job.  Roll Street Justice and like it. 

Considering that a Tank's job is to tank, the damage crash is irrelevant.
And, well built, the Defense crash accomplishes very little.

So Rage isn't "hindering" anything.

[Verfall]

1 hour ago, Hyperstrike said:

Considering that a Tank's job is to tank, the damage crash is irrelevant.
And, well built, the Defense crash accomplishes very little.

So Rage isn't "hindering" anything.

It's just annoying when you're on a roll and all of sudden the brakes get thrown on for 10 seconds. Or when you fire up a KB and...5 damage...

 

The game is so fast paced now in the higher levels that the crash, while manageable, is so damn archaic feeling. I know it's been looked at a gazillion times, and both sides of the argument have valid points, but I would not shed a tear if it got changed into something less annoying. Hell, do something like SR for sentinels practiced brawler, and put on an option to have it be a toggle that's less powerful but no annoying crash. Half the damage buff, half the to hit buff, make it cost endurance like any other toggle, hell if I know at this point. Or just leave it the same, but by using a toggle version you don't get the double or triple stack. Again, dead horse, stick etc etc.

[Hyperstrike]

58 minutes ago, Verfall said:

It's just annoying when you're on a roll and all of sudden the brakes get thrown on for 10 seconds. Or when you fire up a KB and...5 damage...

 

The game is so fast paced now in the higher levels that the crash, while manageable, is so damn archaic feeling. I know it's been looked at a gazillion times, and both sides of the argument have valid points, but I would not shed a tear if it got changed into something less annoying. Hell, do something like SR for sentinels practiced brawler, and put on an option to have it be a toggle that's less powerful but no annoying crash. Half the damage buff, half the to hit buff, make it cost endurance like any other toggle, hell if I know at this point. Or just leave it the same, but by using a toggle version you don't get the double or triple stack. Again, dead horse, stick etc etc.

Taunt 'em.
Summon Incarnate Pets.
Toggle your Hybrid power.
Hit your self-heal.

One or two of them will eat that piddly 10 seconds up.

[Sovera]

No, you're right, the Rage crash is annoying and a solid hit to self-defense.

 

Not, not, of course, against -easy- enemies. Easy enemies remain easy with or without crash. But anything that's chewing our Tankers up is going to smile in beatific gratitude at seeing us doing to ourselves -20% to all defenses.

 

To me there is no excuse to be nearly self-CCed for 10 seconds every minute either. It's just not fun or interesting, and much like (current) Stone Armor Super-Strength does not have enough perks to warrant the downsides.

 

Now if people -like- SS and don't mind the downsides, then yeah, sure, have fun, it's a game, having fun is the goal.

[Snarky]

2 hours ago, Sovera said:

No, you're right, the Rage crash is annoying and a solid hit to self-defense.

 

Not, not, of course, against -easy- enemies. Easy enemies remain easy with or without crash. But anything that's chewing our Tankers up is going to smile in beatific gratitude at seeing us doing to ourselves -20% to all defenses.

 

To me there is no excuse to be nearly self-CCed for 10 seconds every minute either. It's just not fun or interesting, and much like (current) Stone Armor Super-Strength does not have enough perks to warrant the downsides.

 

Now if people -like- SS and don't mind the downsides, then yeah, sure, have fun, it's a game, having fun is the goal.

1) it is every two minutes

 

2) There is a lot of very effective things you can do.  Not the least of which is.....taunt

 

Look, it is annoying.  But crying about it like a kid going to the dentist is not helping.  The set is balanced around RAGE and it is almost broken since it is the best build up in the game.  easily.

[Heraclea]

9 hours ago, Hyperstrike said:

Considering that a Tank's job is to tank, the damage crash is irrelevant.
And, well built, the Defense crash accomplishes very little.

So Rage isn't "hindering" anything.

Endurance crashes, risking detoggles, and defense reductions are incompatible with the job. And the way the game is generally played, ten seconds way too long yo wait out.  AFAIAC SS has been written out of the game, and if you want physical melee attacks Street Hustice is the undamaged substitute. 

[Haijinx]

The -dmg is noticeable, in that it is annoying your numbers all become tiny all of a sudden. Its not really noticeable in the time it takes you to kill a squad of baddies though.  At least on a team.  Footstomp still knocks them down, so may as well just keep attacking and ignore the number spam. 

 

As far as risk?  This is the tanker section.  An INV tanker with even a modest IO build is one step removed from a nigh-unkillable god.   The DEF crash is there to scere the brutes.  

 

The END crashes can be noticeable at times, but I always pair SS with Energy Mastery, so its not a real problem.  If you want another Mastery perhaps carry Recovery Serum as a backup.  

[Verfall]

6 hours ago, Hyperstrike said:

Taunt 'em.
Summon Incarnate Pets.
Toggle your Hybrid power.
Hit your self-heal.

One or two of them will eat that piddly 10 seconds up.

If I'm on a team, of course, but if I'm solo, no real point.

 

I'd rather save those for something difficult.

 

It's fired off every time it's up.

 

Unless I'm hurting, again, no point.

 

Honestly, on teams it's less noticeable, it's solo or in small teams that the annoying factor cuts in. The only other toon I have that relies so heavily on a click to perform is my dominator, but I get less performance if I don't click the button, and god mode if I do. With SS, you click and you get relative parity with the other sets followed by annoying or dangerous crash depending on build/io's etc.

 

On my main, it's an annoyance. On my ss/invul brute that I only play solo, it can be downright dangerous. 

 

There's plenty of reasons why the crash is dumb/outdated/bad game mechanics/ out of theme, etc. But we stick to it out of a combo of nostalgia and those that stack it for more performance. Forums tend to have more of the latter by nature, so the outcry to keep the status quo tends to be louder.

 

I use it, I stack it, I make the best of it. But it's still a stupid mechanic and would love to see it gutted and  redone into something useful without the 10 second gut punch. Why does it need three negatives? It is nowhere near that overpowering for 90% of players. I'm sure there's someone who could show some metric that has double stacked or triple stacked being top tier dps or some nonsense. Again, stuff that only applies to an elite minority should not be the qualifier that defines how goddamn annoying a mechanic is.

 

Can it be worked around? sure. Should it have to be worked around? Not anymore.

[Hyperstrike]

2 hours ago, Heraclea said:

Endurance crashes, risking detoggles, and defense reductions are incompatible with the job. And the way the game is generally played, ten seconds way too long yo wait out.  AFAIAC SS has been written out of the game, and if you want physical melee attacks Street Hustice is the undamaged substitute. 

How tight is your Consumption vs Recovery?

From personal experience, I'm sitting at 0.94 resting consumption (0.72 for a "Mo Durable") and have a recovery of 3.5.
Unless I'm being successfully sapped, my End bar barely moves outside of Rage crash.
We're not talking about an UNSTOPPABLE End crash (100%).  We're talking a Rage crash (25%).

I mean, if your build's a lot tighter, I guess it might be a problem.
I've haven't had this problem.

[Sovera]

5 hours ago, Snarky said:

1) it is every two minutes

 

2) There is a lot of very effective things you can do.  Not the least of which is.....taunt

 

Look, it is annoying.  But crying about it like a kid going to the dentist is not helping.  The set is balanced around RAGE and it is almost broken since it is the best build up in the game.  easily.

 

Who runs Rage without stacking it, Snarkums? Once stacking Rage the crash happens once a minute.

[Haijinx]

18 minutes ago, Sovera said:

 

Who runs Rage without stacking it, Snarkums? Once stacking Rage the crash happens once a minute.

 

Agreed.  My goal is always to maximize Double Rage for as long as possible.