Blaster Knockback powers

[Solarverse]

1 hour ago, Luminara said:

 

It is a good thing.  Refusing to accept that choices have consequences doesn't change that.  We make choices in everything we do, and we deal with the consequences.  Every character we create and play is an exercise in choice and balancing the effects of that choice.  One character might be AoE-oriented, another might be focused on single-target damage, another might be low damage, high mitigation, et cetera.  We're always trading one of something for one of something else.  Slotting KB->KD is trading slots for increased soft control, positioning and damage output over time (by keeping critters near your character, you can use your high damage melee attacks more readily).

 

Nothing costs nothing, not even in this game, and something for nothing is worth exactly what's paid for it.

 

 

It's also not benefitting me in any way after I hit double-digits in levels.  It's completely useless.  I get absolutely nothing from it after the starter levels, because it's obviated by basic slotting.  It's not high enough to allow me to skip Accuracy enhancements, and slotting Accuracy enhancements obviates the secondary effect, so ultimately, it's pointless and useless.  In contrast, KB, by itself, increases survivability, and can be converted to KD for further benefits (see paragraph above).  So while you can slot your KB powers to improve their secondary in some way, all I can do is accept that mine is an irrelevant number displayed on the power info panel.

 

-Recharge suffers from a similar issue.  If critters had a single attack, then small amounts of -Recharge would matter.  They don't.  They have multiple attacks, and -Recharge doesn't prevent them from using those other attacks.  And it can't be slotted to improve it in any way.  It can't delay those other attacks like KB and KD can.  It can't give me opportunities to leverage my own higher damage attacks like KD can.  Unless it's massive, and the character can survive the critter's attack chain before it cycles back around to the first power, it does absolutely nothing worthwhile or noticeable... and even that benefit is dependent on critters not being defeated before that first attack recharges.  If I'm two-shotting minions in 4 seconds, and downing lieutenants in 6 seconds, the value of my -Recharge is even lower, since it's only applicable for bosses and higher.  And, again, I still can't improve it in any way, it's just a tiny number that floats in the power info panel, mocking me.

 

Those are fair comparisons.  You can do something with your KB.  You can benefit from those conversion IOs.  Other sets don't have that option, and never will.

 

 

You could've used custom-colored Rad blasts, Dark blasts or Fire blasts.  You could've made that character without the KB, and the only consequence would be a different name on the set.  You chose not to.  Choice, consequence.

 

 

And Archery's +Acc isn't doing a thing for teammates.  It's not a PBAoE, it's not a buff to teammates, it's not a debuff on critters, it's not even making the Archery/* or */Archery character better.  But you missed the point.

 

If the HC team added a slot specifically for global KB reduction, but didn't add a slot for all other secondaries to benefit in some way, it would turn into the biggest shit show since the Nixon administration.  Like it or not, willing to admit it or not, slotting KB->KD changes the profile of a set significantly.  It allows for additional damage output.  It allows for better management of soft control.  It adds advantages.  If you give one set the ability to redefine itself and gain advantages, the same has to be done for all sets.  All of them.  Failure to do so would be catastrophic.  It would show favoritism toward one secondary effect and disregard for all others, and incite furor.

 

Being able to redefine the play style of KB-heavy sets with a single IO that doesn't even take up a slot in any power, allowing increased survivability, increased damage output, AND the extra slots to spend on additional special IOs (damage procs, Force Feedback +Rchg), and that not being applicable to everyone, would lead to riots.  You can't drop an unbalanced and unfair change like that without players going ape-shit.

 

That's the point, in case it still wasn't clear.  Not whether or not different secondaries are comparable in any way, but that granting one secondary a special global IO slot and not doing it for the rest of the secondaries would be very, very bad for the game's health and the wellness of the community.  And since it's a given that all secondaries can't be given a global IO slot which improves them, it's a guarantee of insane drama and strife.

 

 

There isn't an iota of evidence that I can find anywhere that what you say is reflective of the real mindset of players in general.  None.  No threads with KB users holding hands and weeping en masse because they're kicked from teams or verbally abused for doing what they do.  No reports of abuse for using KB.  No screenshots or logs showing someone having been kicked, just... nothing.  You make it sound as though team leaders are hovering a finger over the kick command, and teammates are heaping vitriol on KB users, but there's nothing supporting that.

 

You haven't even posted about being kicked from a team or told off for using your attacks, only vague musing about KB users being hated.  It never happened to me, it never happened to my friends, the original forums weren't hammered with complaints from KB users, and these forums aren't rife with outrage over kicks for using KB, so where's the beef?  Seriously, where?  Is it under the pickle?  Did you drop it?  Did you knock it back too far and lose track of it?  If people are so averse to KB that they'll commonly, frequently, regularly or even occasionally denigrate KB users and throw them off of teams, why isn't there a mountain of evidence showing that?

 

Come on, man, no-one here hates you for using KB.  We love you.  We respect you.  We appreciate you.  And we're damn sure not going to stop feeling that because we have to press W for half a second.

 

 

I meant stop obsessing over Meteor appearing out of nowhere, rather than being precisely modeled after a real impact event, complete with sub-orbital trajectory and travel time.

 

Rather than going back and forth with you, I will just say that I completely disagree with everything you wrote here, even down to the part where you said nobody has ever complained about being kicked off a team for using Knock Back. You are still going on about how a secondary is useless and comparing that to me saying that a secondary gets hate from members of the community and forces players who don't wish to be a hindrance to their team to use a slot in a power to slot a KB to KD. I simply can't argue against that because we simply disagree completely on the example you provide to back your argument. If I can't even agree with your examples, I won't be able to agree with your stance on the argument as a whole. So rather than going back and forth and quoting specific paragraphs, I'll just end this with a hand shake and say, let's agree to disagree and call it a day.

 

Edited December 16, 2021 by Solarverse
Spelling error

[Solarverse]

1 hour ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

Just tryin to get to the real root of the issue. People love what they decide to love and hate what they decide to hate. The damage loss caused by scattering spawns doesn't actually matter at all when you don't care about getting every last second shaved off your time but some folks still go all "lookit how that bitch eats her crackers" and I'm curious as to why.

 

I suspect it boils down to a case of "hey, it was fun for me to get these guys where I wanted them and you pissed on my fun."

Just as "hey, I love watching them fly and that's why I play this nrg/storm corruptor and quite frankly I'm sick of all yall bitchin about it and shunning me for it."

 

That's pretty much exactly what it is. Two different play styles that have never mixed well in this game...and it probably never will.

[Bill Z Bubba]

1 minute ago, Solarverse said:

That's pretty much exactly what it is. Two different play styles that have never mixed well in this game...and it probably never will.

 

It's only those that can manage to incorporate both styles by altering their desires to fit the reality of the situation handed them that are capable of continuing to have fun regardless of what their teammates are doing.

 

In other words, don't give a shit, there will be no shit.

[Solarverse]

Just now, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

It's only those that can manage to incorporate both styles by altering their desires to fit the reality of the situation handed them that are capable of continuing to have fun regardless of what their teammates are doing.

 

In other words, don't give a shit, there will be no shit.

 

But muh give-a-shit-o-meter! It's going off the charts! Haha.

I hear ya, my man. I simply leave teams that have player who play like that, that's how I deal with it. Rather than make a stink and rain on the guy's parade, I simply bow out and move on. That's the best way I can handle it.

[Dona Eis Requiem]

 

3 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

It's only those that can manage to incorporate both styles by altering their desires to fit the reality of the situation handed them that are capable of continuing to have fun regardless of what their teammates are doing.

 

In other words, don't give a shit, there will be no shit.

Preach it brother. I'm not gonna tell someone else how to play their character and I certainly won't listen if they try to change me.

Play, have fun and forget the drama. 

On that note I think I'll go play my un-converted EN/WP Sentinel for a while now. 

[Troo]

 

look at the mess knockback makes of even this thread. just a mess.. and I love it.

 

 

 

more powers that require some situational awareness please!

 

Edited December 16, 2021 by Troo

[Troo]

10 hours ago, Solarverse said:

So rather than going back and forth and quoting specific paragraphs, I'll just end this with a hand shake and say, let's agree to disagree and call it a day.

 

waaay too mature for this venue. kudos

 

 

Edited December 16, 2021 by Troo
missed a vowel

[Attache]

KB kind of blows when you are not the one doing the KB, then it is pretty fun. I'm not necessarily a fan - there is a reason my Energy Blaster doesn't get a lot of play - but given how prevalent it is in the source material that CoH should be emulating, I embrace it. So it takes another few minutes to clear the map - why do I care? Do I have a wife waiting for me to come to bed? Kids waiting for me to help them with their home work? A rewarding career I need to get my rest for?

/e grief

KB led to one of my favorite moments since I've been back! I had fired up Wormhole on a mob for the stun just as a teammate hit nova and sent them all flying and I sucked all the survivors back into a tight little stunned knot. Everyone thought it was an fun moment and planned but it was just happenstance. I've tried to recreate it with some success but never with such precision as the happy accident.

Edited December 16, 2021 by Attache

[SuggestorK]

The basic underline Problem is that u move the foes out of damage zone of other Players , but this does not go only for KB.

 

Since the change i cursed many times to myself on Teammates using Fold Space unannounced and thus negating my Debuff  (Tar Patch or Quicksand as example) or area placed aoe damage (rain of arrows could be named as example here).

 

On the Contrary i saw it brought to good use too, like a 2nd mob got aggroed unwanted and they TP that Mob to Tanks location (a great way to use it).

 

What could i do.

1. Blame em over Team Chat for a Power they did choose for themselves

2. Leave the Team (hence its a TF i choose to get the Badge at the End)

3. Accept the fact, swallow up what bothers me let evryone use their powers they choose as they will and fight on.

 

So i choose to do the Point 3, just with the slight change that i use my powers, that go wasted with this team, not as much anymore.. will the fight take longer, maybe, but its just how it is.

Edited December 16, 2021 by SuggestorK

[Ukase]

On 12/15/2021 at 2:11 AM, Snarky said:

I have successfully not posted this for….many days.  But i just worked 24 of the last 48 hours and the Snark is roaring…

 

In a world…where we have went through so much…

 

In a dimension…that so many of us thought we had lost…

 

In a time…when so many of us are confused…about why the H the NEW Blaster set is all about knockback!   Did someone not bolt your robotic components on straight before you sat down to design this set?  Have you quit cigarettes cold turkey and this was the brain dying? Did you get attacked by a water monster and the earth seemed comforting?   Just tell us, we will listen.  We will judge, sure.  But we will listen.

 

 

Such restraint! What have you done with our Snarky? 

In all seriousness, I don't disagree.

And I wonder who thought it would be a good idea to go forward with a powerset that has KB, when it's so controversial. The rebuttal is always, "there's a kb-kd IO you can use". But, that's a cop-out. Every slot is in demand for almost every build. To waste one with a KB-KD for EACH attack, that's not smart. You just have to embrace the knockback and try to be clever about your avatar positioning when fighting.  Or stop playing it, and let the dormancy speak for you. 

 

[Hew]

10 minutes ago, Ukase said:

And I wonder who thought it would be a good idea to go forward with a powerset that has KB, when it's so controversial.

ONE attack. Less hyperbole please.

 

---

Seismic Shockwaves deals knockdown (KB < 0.75).  Upthrust deals knockdown.  Meteor deals KB.  That's only three powers, including the set mechanic (Seismic Shockwaves), and only one of those three is full KB, so your assertion, that the set is "all about KB", is exaggeration. (Thanks @Luminara )

[UltraAlt]

8 hours ago, Techwright said:

How can it be called "arrest" when they're flying all over the room?  We need a better descriptive catch phrase...like Jackson Pollock.   The meteor Jackson Pollocked those mobs...all over the walls.

 

When the meteor strikes and becomes a meteorite it also deposits fragments into the criminals so that they can be tracked by the Paragon Police Department.

The Paragon Police Department then responds themselves (or alerts Longbow) to "pick up" the criminals for incarceration awaiting trial for their crimes.

It's really quite simple when you think about it (in a comic book mentality).

... err wait ...

-or-

The heroes eject a nanite into teach fallen foe from their medical transcoder that was implanted in them by the Paragon City Medical Association when they registered their status as heroes. The medial transcoder itself is normally used to allow the Paragon City Medical Association to teleport fallen heroes to the hospital. Some heroes have been able to program a similar medical regeneration device in their bases and use this same technology to teleport supergroup members to their own supergroup base.

The coded nanite that the heroes inject is used by Longbow to teleport the fallen foe into the cells located in a Longbow facility or into the custody of the Pargaon City Police depending up on the nature of the crime. At this point, they either await trial (or breakout) or secreted away to a hidden top secret Longbow facility for holding (or not so secret Longbow facility if they are Rikti and dissection medical testing is performed on them)

You may not notice heroes doing this as it is done in what has been unofficially been called "down time". "Down time" generally isn't recorded on combat logs due to it is a rather boring process or situations to observe and is not relevant to any court proceedings. 

[Luminara]

27 minutes ago, Ukase said:

And I wonder who thought it would be a good idea to go forward with a powerset that has KB, when it's so controversial.

 

The evidence presented thus far (none) indicates that the "controversy" isn't there.  As I previously noted, there aren't any posts reporting players being kicked for using KB, there aren't any posts reporting verbal abuse for using KB.  Some people don't like KB, and some people don't like "having" to use slots to mitigate KB, and some people are vocal about these things, but that "some" isn't even, based on the overwhelming lack of evidence, a significant percentage of current players.  That's not evidence that KB is "so controversial", it's evidence that people are different.  Shocker.

 

And the very notion that we'd stop including anything simply because some people don't like it, is ludicrous.  Some people don't like bubbles.  Some people don't like Speed Boost.  Some people don't like IO set bonuses.  Some people don't like particle effects.  Some people don't like zone music.  Absolutely everything in this game, every last thing, is disliked by someone, and expecting future development to avoid using anything that isn't universally adored is akin to expecting the entire game to be stripped down to a blank screen.

[Hardboiled Hero]

26 minutes ago, Luminara said:

Some people don't like bubbles.  Some people don't like Speed Boost..

 

  Okay, but bubbles are just bad and, while I really WANT to like speed-boost, it's probably caused me more problems then every other problem power combined.  I'd really get to missions faster if I really just weren't running into walls all the time.  I don't even want to think how many times I've stopped in the middle of a mob instead of stopping at my range limit from them..

[Erratic1]

14 hours ago, Yomo Kimyata said:

 

It's only a meteor until it lands.  Then it's a meteorite.

 

If any of it remains intact.

 

13 hours ago, 0th Power said:

Exactly my point!

 

Why should we name the power because of what happens in the aftermath of its use as opposed to what gets invoked?

[Erratic1]

12 hours ago, Snarky said:

Scattering mobs to the 4 corners of the map is NOT a new playstyle.  Neither can you "adapt" to it unless you like hunting them down one by one to ST the things down.  Some of us do not have 3 extra powers to squeeze in Fold Space because a teammate has a fascination for watching enemies fly across the map.

 

This does make me wonder what the parameters are on when mobs are likely to live and when they are not. 

 

You get Meteor at level 32 with only one slot. Using it then means scattered mobs. A level later though you can have (and likely will have) added three slots to it. Things are not likely to live, especially if you immediately use Upthrust after casting Meteor so both power hits at the same time.

 

But dial the difficulty up to +4x8 (or higher now).... I am not sure where things go back to surviving. OTOH, nothing requires you use it as an opener. 

 

And on the gripping hand, find a tight corridor or cargo container where things cannot knocked anywhere and its quite fun regardless of things living.

[Snarky]

45 minutes ago, Luminara said:

 

The evidence presented thus far (none) indicates that the "controversy" isn't there. 

no controversy?  really?

 

 

wait.  really?

[Luminara]

2 minutes ago, Snarky said:

no controversy?  really?

 

 

wait.  really?

 

No "People are mean to me/kicking me off of teams because I use KB" controversy.

[Snarky]

Just now, Luminara said:

 

No "People are mean to me/kicking me off of teams because I use KB" controversy.

where exactly would this data come from?  a spreadsheet.  

 

or.... people talking about how disliked knockback is?   this is the locker room just off the playing field.  listen to the chatter my friend.

[Erratic1]

What I do not get is complaining about Meteor in terms of group damage.

 

My primary issue with knockback is when I am playing a melee character and someone knocks what I am fighting away from me. They have prioritized their fun over mine and I can do nothing but have to chase. But in this I am not worried about group damage, I am annoyed by someone else's specific action. The group's efficiency is not on my mind.

 

So last night I was running around on my new Elec/Stone brute with a Seismic Blaster (not that I knew it until I heard that distinctive sound of an incoming Meteor). Honestly it was not a problem. Most things died and the things that got scattered were near unto death and easy for the group to clean up. It became a regular routine where I would charge in on my brute, have a spawn converge on me, and then an extinction level event would be invoked where I stood. 

 

I almost feel shame mentioning this next part which has literally just occurred to me...perhaps I should not mention it....

 

The delay between when Meteor is cast and the effect goes off? It allows for reverse griefing. Just move and whatever mobs stay on you won't be around for the power to hit. 😈

 

 

Edited December 16, 2021 by Erratic1

[Snarky]

3 minutes ago, Erratic1 said:

What I do not get is complaining about Meteor in terms of group damage.

 

My primary issue with knockback is when I am playing a melee character and someone knocks what I am fighting away from me. They have prioritized their fun over mine and I can do nothing but have to chase. But in this I am not worried about group damage, I am annoyed by someone else's specific action. The group's efficiency is not on my mind.

 

So last night I was running around on my new Elec/Stone brute with a Seismic Blaster (not that I knew it until I heard that distinctive sound of an incoming Meteor). Honestly it was not a problem. Most things died and the things that got scattered were near unto death and easy for the group to clean up. It became a regular routine where I would charge in on my brute, have a spawn converge on me, and then an extinction level event would be invoked where I stood. 

 

I almost feel shame mentioning this next part which has literally just occurred to me...perhaps I should not mention it....

 

The delay between when Meteor is cast and the effect goes off? It allows for reverse griefing. Just move and whatever mobs stay on you won't be around for the power to hit. 😈

 

 

Interesting point.  Takes the issue from a different angle.  Fold Space can be great!  Or you can yoink the mobs I am doing a long animation PBAoE nuke on away from me so that when it fires I hit nothing.  ANY power that significantly repositions mobs can screw with other players.  Why the Devs chose to add another into the game (and an important one at that) is literally beyond me.  

[Erratic1]

8 minutes ago, Snarky said:

Interesting point.  Takes the issue from a different angle.  Fold Space can be great!  Or you can yoink the mobs I am doing a long animation PBAoE nuke on away from me so that when it fires I hit nothing.  ANY power that significantly repositions mobs can screw with other players.  Why the Devs chose to add another into the game (and an important one at that) is literally beyond me.  

 

Using Fold Space to yank mobs away from someone who does not want them yanked falls under the, "prioritizing their fun over mine" bit I mentioned above. 

 

Let me see your different angle with another.... If the person kills the target the instant before your power is invoked (btw, so long as the power has been activated it is going to hit regardless of animation, no matter where the mob is--if it lives through the other power that is) your power hits nothing. But that is not something anyone complains about. Same denial of hitting has occurred.

 

Your introspection assignment is to consider why one is acceptable and the other isn't. Then you may return and attempt to snatch the pebble from my hand, grasshopper.

[Peacemoon]

There is a damage/knockdown enhancement in the game too. Yes it is unique, but if you have an important power that you really want to change I’d recommend using that unique so you aren’t losing the slot entirely.

 

Also knocking enemies off their feet can be a great advantage, so I wouldn’t be so quick to right it off the enhancement slot used to facilitate that on AoE powers @Solarverse. Remember Ragnarok epic power set has a knockdown proc because it’s such a strong thing to have on an AoE power.

 

As for single target powers that have a chance to knockback, I’m afraid most of the time I keep them as a knock back and I’m afraid in my perspective that is entirely reasonable, and if people don’t like it they can lump it. Energy blasters hardly need help from melee anyway for finishing off a single target. 

[Erratic1]

5 minutes ago, Peacemoon said:

Energy blasters hardly need help from melee anyway for finishing off a single target. 

 

On regular content, sure. Just be sure you can handle it when things are set to +4x8 because if you knock the target away from my melee I am not chasing it or peeling it off you. I am on to the next target.

[Snarky]

5 minutes ago, Erratic1 said:

 

Using Fold Space to yank mobs away from someone who does not want them yanked falls under the, "prioritizing their fun over mine" bit I mentioned above. 

 

Let me see your different angle with another.... If the person kills the target the instant before your power is invoked (btw, so long as the power has been activated it is going to hit regardless of animation, no matter where the mob is--if it lives through the other power that is) your power hits nothing. But that is not something anyone complains about. Same denial of hitting has occurred.

 

Your introspection assignment is to consider why one is acceptable and the other isn't. Then you may return and attempt to snatch the pebble from my hand, grasshopper.

I have had another persons nuke hit just before mine.  to devastating effect.  But at least i could console myself with batting cleanup on bosses etc.  KO Blow is a power you quickly learn not to waste on soon to be dead enemies.

 

using Fold Space or a AoE KB power on a large group is an entirely different situation.  It moves the mobs.  My Nuke or KO Blow would have hit if the enemies had health left.  But...now those mobs are over there...still alive.  Yet my power was wasted.