Farming discrepancies

[Glacier Peak]

I was operating under the false impression that experience received from the non-Dev Choice Architect Entertainment missions were half of regular non-AE missions. I collected some data and this is what I found:

 

  +4/8 Solo

Non-Dev Choice AE

Enemy Rank....   
Minion................   4,272 XP
Lieutenant........    8,544 XP
Boss....................  25,632 XP
Elite Boss..........    51,265 XP

 

 +4/8 Solo

Unai Kamen (Take readings from rupture mission)

Enemy Rank....

Minion................   6,836 XP

Lieutenant........    13,671 XP

Boss....................  51,265 XP

Notes: Custom Enemy Critters from the #18553 Fire Farm. Unai Kamen enemies were Freakshow from the Dreck replacement mission (untimed).

 

The only thing I can conclude is that the numbers from the AE mission are off because the critters aren't getting 100% of the power requirements for full xp. Anyone else have better numbers they could share or enlighten me as to why I am seeing this? Is it supposed to be double? Am I miss remembering? Do some non-custom enemy groups get half-xp in AE by default? (Freaks? Demons? Family?).

 

Help a fellow farmer!

Edited December 27, 2021 by Glacier Peak
More mobile friendly

[The_Warpact]

You know I was wondering this, but, never delved into it number wise. Thought maybe it was me ( I do f*ck up once in a while), and with no backed up data just left it alone.

 

Example, I could run a new toon from lvl 1 to 21 in a run, now I can only get to 17. Did I miss something?

[Coyotedancer]

I remember that early on the devs decided to halve the rewards that AE mobs gave, but I thought that was in comparison to the former rate of the AE things themselves rather than in comparison to whatever average non-AE critters produced. 

[Glacier Peak]

32 minutes ago, Coyotedancer said:

I remember that early on the devs decided to halve the rewards that AE mobs gave, but I thought that was in comparison to the former rate of the AE things themselves rather than in comparison to whatever average non-AE critters produced. 

I have the same recollection, but I can't find the quote for specifics. Wish I knew exact numbers so I can have better expectations.

 

At the end of the day, I tend to choose the most convenient farm. Sometimes that's in Portal Corp or sometimes that's in AE. 

[Troo]

Wildly inaccurate + game broken + farm = a perfect topic for the moderation blackout period.

[Bill Z Bubba]

37 minutes ago, Troo said:

Wildly inaccurate + game broken + farm = a perfect topic for the moderation blackout period.

 

I'm confused. Until your post this seemed like a normal "huh, here's some data that I didn't expect, does anyone know what's up?" kinda thread.

[Glacier Peak]

11 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

I'm confused. Until your post this seemed like a normal "huh, here's some data that I didn't expect, does anyone know what's up?" kinda thread.

Yeah, that's what I was going for. Noticed something, wanted to see if anyone else noticed it or if my numbers were off.

[lemming]

1 hour ago, Glacier Peak said:

Yeah, that's what I was going for. Noticed something, wanted to see if anyone else noticed it or if my numbers were off.

Might depend on when and the how the extra XP for more difficulty takes place.  Try at +0 to double check.  (Of course, other variable is number of teammates, dayjobs, a few others...)

[Glacier Peak]

Just now, lemming said:

Might depend on when and the how the extra XP for more difficulty takes place.  Try at +0 to double check.  (Of course, other variable is number of teammates, dayjobs, a few others...)

Good suggestion! I tried to isolate as many variables as I could think of in my initial test. I'll try the next iteration at -1, 0, +1, +2, and +3.

[Aurora_Girl]

1 hour ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

I'm confused. Until your post this seemed like a normal "huh, here's some data that I didn't expect, does anyone know what's up?" kinda thread.

 

What, you don't speak Troo? That's kinda their SOP. 

[Bill Z Bubba]

15 minutes ago, Aurora_Girl said:

What, you don't speak Troo? That's kinda their SOP. 

 

Yea, yea, I grok it. He's not the only person that wants to watch it all burn.

[Lazarillo]

Freak minions and LTs are worth slightly lower than standard XP.  This was put into effect back before the game's original closure, as they were considered weaker than a lot of enemy groups (particularly for teams) and can rez themselves for "double" rewards from a single mob.  You may or may not recall the infamous "Dreck farms" that even exploited this simplicity.  I don't remember the exact change to the curve, but the enemies you were fighting for Unai Kemen appear to give about 80% of what they "should" based on those AE values, which sounds about in line with my recollections.

 

Now, that all said, I couldn't tell you what the values for Freaks are in AE, and if they're halved relative to this curve, too.  But it shouldn't be too hard to investigate.

Edited December 28, 2021 by Lazarillo

[Glacier Peak]

1 hour ago, Lazarillo said:

Freak minions and LTs are worth slightly lower than standard XP.  This was put into effect back before the game's original closure, as they were considered weaker than a lot of enemy groups (particularly for teams) and can rez themselves for "double" rewards from a single mob.  You may or may not recall the infamous "Dreck farms" that even exploited this simplicity.  I don't remember the exact change to the curve, but the enemies you were fighting for Unai Kemen appear to give about 80% of what they "should" based on those AE values, which sounds about in line with my recollections.

 

Now, that all said, I couldn't tell you what the values for Freaks are in AE, and if they're halved relative to this curve, too.  But it shouldn't be too hard to investigate.

Ah very much appreciated! I'll try another enemy group outside AE to get the baseline. 

[Ukase]

You made me curious. I knew that with custom mobs, the xp was going to vary, but man, some farms are definitely better than others. I was in one farm - and I was getting almost twice as much xp in Briggs as I was in another farm - no sense naming it here, who want's less xp? 

The strange thing is...both maps have an ally of sorts...the only difference must be in mob difficulty, but they're all dealing in fire. Other than the costumes, I really can't tell the difference between them, but the game seems to see one. 

[Troo]

Customer critters can have different XP than regular critters. The more gimped they are the less xp they reward. Is this not common knowledge?

 

6 hours ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

I'm confused. Until your post this seemed like a normal "huh, here's some data that I didn't expect, does anyone know what's up?" kinda thread.

 

Comparing different things and then suggesting something is wrong is what I read it as. 

If genuinely curious (as they later seemed to clarified) comparing same critters in AE and regular content would be step one, wouldn't it?

I reread what I wrote and thought about removing "wildly", but I am okay with it being included the trolling formula outlined.

 

 

Why different AE mission have different xp when using custom critters?

Look for: "You definitely want that Experience Value at 100% for all of your mobs!"

 

 

Edited December 28, 2021 by Troo

[Glacier Peak]

1 hour ago, Ukase said:

You made me curious. I knew that with custom mobs, the xp was going to vary, but man, some farms are definitely better than others. I was in one farm - and I was getting almost twice as much xp in Briggs as I was in another farm - no sense naming it here, who want's less xp? 

The strange thing is...both maps have an ally of sorts...the only difference must be in mob difficulty, but they're all dealing in fire. Other than the costumes, I really can't tell the difference between them, but the game seems to see one. 

Thank you for taking the time to check and report back your findings. I'm definitely going to follow up with my data once I get back on and run my tests. 

[MoonSheep]

8 hours ago, Lazarillo said:

You may or may not recall the infamous "Dreck farms" that even exploited this simplicity. 

 

no sir, i have no recollection of any “dreck farm” back on live or lvl 42 SKs. shipping containers!? what would i use that for? 😁

[roleki]

7 hours ago, Troo said:

Customer critters can have different XP than regular critters. The more gimped they are the less xp they reward. Is this not common knowledge?

 

 

Comparing different things and then suggesting something is wrong is what I read it as. 

If genuinely curious (as they later seemed to clarified) comparing same critters in AE and regular content would be step one, wouldn't it?

I reread what I wrote and thought about removing "wildly", but I am okay with it being included the trolling formula outlined.

 

 

Why different AE mission have different xp when using custom critters?

Look for: "You definitely want that Experience Value at 100% for all of your mobs!"

 

 

If I recall correctly, besides getting an XP boost for sheer number of attacks, there's also more XP for ranged alpha, ranged attacks in general, and whether there are mobs that patrol the area.  

[Bionic_Flea]

As stated by others, there is a "standard" amount of XP per critter of X rank and Y level, but that standard amount can be modified by a number of factors.  "In the wild," certain critters or factions are given added or reduced XP.  For example, Family as a group gives reduced XP at 50 as they were considered less dangerous as a whole; Rikti portals used to give XPs but that was removed and the Lts that summon them given bonus XP to compensate; and as stated above, Freaks has a sightly lower XP rate that is balanced by the few critters that rez for "bonus" XP.

 

The AE also has XP modifiers for custom critters.  They have to have at least one ranged attack and enough attacks or defenses to make them "worthy" of 100%.  Additionally, custom critter factions need to have a mix of bosses, Lts, and minions to get full XP as the OG devs wanted to curb the appeal of Boss and EB farms.

 

Per Wiki:

 

Level	Minions	Lieutenant	Boss
50	2866	5732	17196

 

https://hcwiki.cityofheroes.dev/wiki/Experience

Edited December 28, 2021 by Bionic_Flea

[Sovera]

Funny enough I hate Freaks because of their heals and ressurections. But I do wonder why people farm the AE when the first mission of the Market Crash is a farm map thinly disguised as a TF. Full XP, but I suppose not full inf?

[Hedgefund]

I'll check when servers are back but I'm pretty sure Family was reverted to normal xp when they got buffed with things like Beam Rifle attacks. 

[Ukase]

9 hours ago, Troo said:

Customer critters can have different XP than regular critters. The more gimped they are the less xp they reward. Is this not common knowledge?

I'm sure it's common knowledge among those who have made a farm of their own. If not - if you didn't read patch notes, or learn it from other players by chance, you'd never know. 

Sure, there are a lot of farms out there, but my guess is, most are either rigging the game in favor of their own character, for specific circumstance. Only a few seem to take great pains to ensure 100% xp. And, unfortunately, unless you're paying close attention to how much xp you get for a certain ranked mob (I don't - as I'm after the drops, not the xp), you'd probably never notice any discrepancy. 

[Hedgefund]

15 minutes ago, Sovera said:

Funny enough I hate Freaks because of their heals and ressurections. But I do wonder why people farm the AE when the first mission of the Market Crash is a farm map thinly disguised as a TF. Full XP, but I suppose not full inf?

You can't take a lowbie in for this.  I agree that for active (not AFK) inf farming it would be pretty nice, it's a very densely packed map.

[Ukase]

14 minutes ago, Sovera said:

Funny enough I hate Freaks because of their heals and ressurections. But I do wonder why people farm the AE when the first mission of the Market Crash is a farm map thinly disguised as a TF. Full XP, but I suppose not full inf?

In my case, it's because of the salvage drops. Freaks drop tech salvage. But the recipes often call for arcane salvage. So, you end up with having to open the AH and type out each salvage you need, and then have to buy them. It's not hard, of course, but it takes time. 

The AE farms, for reasons that are beyond me, and I think it's all of the critters, custom or otherwise - they drop both arcane and tech. So, after each map, you don't need to buy any commons. And if you are missing an uncommon or rare, you just don't craft 'em, and see if you got what you need in the next map. 

Out in the wild, away from AE, you just get one or the other. I believe there are some critters that might drop both, but I have no recollection of which ones they are, if they exist. 

On live, before AE, I suffered through Harvey Meylor's arc as well as Unai Kemen's to get one freak map and one demon map so I could run one, then the other, to minimize the need to purchase salvage - but there was still the annoyance of having to go from one mission to the next. (no mission tp or team tp then). 

When AE came out, I tried it and at first, it was far better. But when they nerfed the ambushes, etc..I just went back to the Dreck & Demon maps. 
Now, I may revisit such system, just for kicks and grins. 

[Ukase]

23 hours ago, Ukase said:

When AE came out, I tried it and at first, it was far better. But when they nerfed the ambushes, etc..I just went back to the Dreck & Demon maps. 
Now, I may revisit such system, just for kicks and grins. 

I did revisit this. While the xp is better, it's not set up for afk...so it takes a lot longer than the 125 with the patrolling mobs. And the drops...anecdotally, not as plentiful. 3 uncommon and 1 very rare recipe and a bunch of commons. Kind of lost inf on that set up. Even with lower xp per mob in AE - it's much better XP overall, over time for an afk-er. 

For active farming, I think the outside AE would be the way to go, given the discrepency between xp per mob.