Make Corruptors King of Debuffs

[Apparition]

Right now, Corruptors are essentially Defenders with worse buffs, debuffs, heals, and do slightly more damage, with much worse proc opportunities.  Let's level the playing field a little.

 

Make Defenders' debuff values the current Corruptor debuff values, and make Corruptor debuff values the current Defender debuff values.  Done.  That alone would be a big differentiator between the two archetypes and give people more of a reason to choose Corruptor over Defender.  Plus, it plays into the archetypes' very names.

Edited April 9, 2022 by Apparition

[Menelruin]

Then isn't there almost no reason to play a debuff set on a defender?

[Marbing]

I have said this before. In a different thread. It didn't go well.

[Naraka]

I think debuffs are a bit of a messy field. If I'm not mistaken, -END isn't scaled at all so such debuffs are nearly equal across the board. Then we hit the issue that blast sets come with debuffs so making the damage and the debuff both more effective for corruptor just makes the entire primary better in every way compared to the defender.

 

Then there are sets that only debuff. That means sets like trick arrow, dark miasma (yeah, it's got one buff and a heal), storm summoning, poison and such just completely obsolete for defenders, making the correct choice be corruptor for those sets.

 

Granted, I'm not one of those players that care that much for optimization. If anything, I value replayability. Make the sets uniquely different in a mechanical way so that there is a reason to play poison on a corruptor, a controller, a defender and a mastermind.

[Apparition]

4 minutes ago, Menelruin said:

Then isn't there almost no reason to play a debuff set on a defender?

 

You would have the same reason you have to play a debuff set on a Corruptor now.

[Apparition]

Just now, Naraka said:

I think debuffs are a bit of a messy field. If I'm not mistaken, -END isn't scaled at all so such debuffs are nearly equal across the board. Then we hit the issue that blast sets come with debuffs so making the damage and the debuff both more effective for corruptor just makes the entire primary better in every way compared to the defender.

 

Then there are sets that only debuff. That means sets like trick arrow, dark miasma (yeah, it's got one buff and a heal), storm summoning, poison and such just completely obsolete for defenders, making the correct choice be corruptor for those sets.

 

Granted, I'm not one of those players that care that much for optimization. If anything, I value replayability. Make the sets uniquely different in a mechanical way so that there is a reason to play poison on a corruptor, a controller, a defender and a mastermind.

 

Right now, the correct choice for every support set in the game is Defender.  Making some the correct choice for Corruptors is just leveling the playing field a bit.

[Naraka]

1 minute ago, Apparition said:

 

Right now, the correct choice for every support set in the game is Defender.  Making some the correct choice for Corruptors is just leveling the playing field a bit.

 

And I feel that is a bad approach. Right now, the main mechanical difference between the two is corruptor gets some bonus damage on a for with low health and improving DoT to a degree at the cost of some support potency. Swinging the pendulum to make other sets a right or wrong choice depending on AT is just unintuitive and should be avoided all together. 

[PeregrineFalcon]

"Why can't my Sentinel do as much damage as my Blaster?"

Spoiler

Because then there would be no point in playing Blasters.

 

"Why can't my Defender do as much damage as my Blaster?"

Spoiler

Because then there would be no point in playing Blasters.

 

"Why can't my Corruptor debuff as well as my Defender?"

Spoiler

Because then there would be no point in playing Defenders.

 

Yes. Right now the best choice for every support set is to play Defender. The one AT whose sole function is to support a team. Nah, let's just screw them over by making a ranged damage dealer just as good at support as they are.

 

[Luminara]

13 minutes ago, Apparition said:

Make Defenders' debuff values the current Corruptor debuff values

 

Corruptors use the same buff/debuff scales as controllers.  Defenders have no Scourge, no Containment, and 0.65 Ranged Damage scale and 0.55 Melee Damage scale.  Their buff/debuff scales are the only thing they have going for them.

 

Bad suggestion is bad.

[Rudra]

9 minutes ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

. Nah, let's just screw them over by making a ranged damage dealer just as good at support as they are.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't defenders also ranged damage dealers? They have all the same powers as corruptors, just with primaries/secondaries swapped. So your comment is misleading or disingenuous.

 

As for the OP, I prefer playing corruptors over defenders. For the same reason I prefer brutes over tankers. The attacks are primary instead of secondary, so I get them sooner and am happy. I don't know what it will take for more players to like or want to play corruptors, but since defenders and corruptors are inverses of each other, I'm kind of leery about making either better than the other. (And if defenders are better than corruptors right now? I'm not seeing it. Because I like my corruptors. Over defenders.)

[PeregrineFalcon]

26 minutes ago, Rudra said:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't defenders also ranged damage dealers? They have all the same powers as corruptors, just with primaries/secondaries swapped. So your comment is misleading or disingenuous.

It's neither.

 

Look, a Corruptor's primary powerset is ranged damage. It's secondary for a Defender. So the way I see it the Corruptor's primary job is to deal damage, with a side of also support the team. So they are, first and foremost, a ranged damage dealer. The Defender's primary is support, with a side of "oh look, I can also do a bit of damage." So they are, first and foremost, a team support character.

 

So no. My statement was neither misleading nor disingenuous. I don't make misleading or disingenuous statements.

[The_Warpact]

I like Corruptors better anyways..because you know they Corrupt. Moar damage with a side of debuff/buff/heal/whateva, I like 'em how they are. Hell, I'll play a Troller before I do a 'fender, the whole primary thing on 'fenders is meh...I was raised on red side so it appeals to me more the way corrs are.

[Luminara]

39 minutes ago, Rudra said:

They have all the same powers as corruptors, just with primaries/secondaries swapped.

 

Defenders

Modifiers (at level 50)

	Melee	Ranged
Damage Scale	0.550	0.650
Defense Buff	0.100	0.100
Damage Buff	0.100	0.125
Max HP Buff	0.100	0.125
ToHit Buff	0.100	0.125
Defense Debuff	0.125	0.125
Damage Debuff	0.125	0.125
ToHit Debuff	0.125	0.125
EndMod	1.250	0.125
Fear	1.490	1.490
Heal Other	133.862	133.862
Heal Self	101.735
Immobilize	1.490	1.490
Knockback	2.077	2.077
Damage Resist	0.100	0.100
Sleep	1.490	1.490
Slow	1.250	1.250
Stun	1.490	1.490
Taunt	1.030	1.030
Threat Level	1.0	1.0

 

 

Corruptors

Modifiers (at level 50)

	Melee	Ranged
Damage Scale	0.750	0.750
Defense Buff	0.085	0.750
Damage Buff	0.085	0.100
Max HP Buff	0.070	0.100
ToHit Buff	0.085	0.100
Defense Debuff	0.075	0.100
Damage Debuff	0.075	0.100
ToHit Debuff	0.075	0.100
EndMod	1.000	1.100
Fear	1.192	1.192
Heal Other	96.381	117.799
Heal Self	107.090
Immobilize	1.192	1.192
Knockback	2.077	1.662
Damage Resist	0.075	0.075
Sleep	1.192	1.192
Slow	1.000	1.000
Stun	1.192	1.118
Taunt	1.030	1.030
Threat Level	1.0	1.0

 

It goes a bit deeper than a simple flip of the primary/secondary.

[macskull]

2 hours ago, Apparition said:

That alone would be a big differentiator between the two archetypes and give people more of a reason to choose Corruptor over Defender.

Meanwhile I'm over here wondering why anyone would pick a Defender over a Corruptor except in a few specific cases.

[ScarySai]

Ew.

[Greycat]

2 hours ago, Apparition said:

You would have the same reason you have to play a debuff set on a Corruptor now.

 

Wondering what you think peoples' reasons are.

 

My decision tends to be "Do I want my attacks to come first (Corrupter) or my de/buffs ASAP? (Defender.)" Also "Does Scourge fit the character?"  (Much the same as deciding between tank and brute.)

[arcane]

Sorry, I don't see the sense in this. You want debuff-focused-primary defenders to do less debuffs AND less damage?

 

And the "proc opportunity" thing is extremely misleading. There is zero difference in proc rates. The only reason people argue defenders are slightly better with procs is because they can afford to invest more enhancement slots in offense (for example, my Time/ Defender doesn't have Fighting, my /Time Corruptor does, for the same defense). But that's only applicable if you're making very specific build choices. There is zero difference in "proc opportunity" otherwise, and Corruptors even get an extra damage proc that Defenders don't get....

 

[EDIT: Ok there is actually also the part where procs do same amount of damage no matter what AT so Defender's stand to benefit more from slotting procs vs slotting damage than Corruptor's do. But still. Completely negligible point.]

 

You seem like a reasonable poster so may I suggest you sleep on this one. It's a 110% backwards idea. Hard no.

Edited April 10, 2022 by arcane

[macskull]

Do Defenders get better buff/debuff values? Yes. Do their higher support modifiers give them stronger epic/patron shields? Also yes. The rub is for Corruptors those lower buff/debuff values are almost always enough already, and if you can make your character survivable enough, then those advantages are small. Higher Corruptor base HP means any +HP bonuses you might get are worth more, and on the offensive side of things you just can't build a Defender to do more damage than a Corruptor once you start factoring in Scourge. Yeah, we know Scourge isn't always reliable but it's far and away better than a straight damage bonus. Higher base damage, higher damage caps, and Scourge combine to make a Corruptor the clear choice for me.

 

Obviously not everyone feels this way, and the fact there's so much debate about which AT is "better" tells me they're both in okay spots. This isn't like the Sentinel vs Blaster conversation where there's a clear preference one way or the other.

[Coyotedancer]

For my much-beloved Dark Defenders' sake... 

 

*imagine I'm posting Pere's J-Ranger picture here*

 

 

Edited April 9, 2022 by Coyotedancer

[TheZag]

Corruptors having better debuffs and defenders having better buffs makes sense.  Many sets have both though so it would be a mix of buffing and nerfing.  I think the main issue is 1 ATs secondary being better then anothers primary,  even if its not for every single power.  I would probably try and go with having corruption scaling from low chance at 90% hp and and increasing in chance as hp declines so the damage output remains basically unchanged.  Maybe at that point something sould get rolled into a corruptors primary that makes their debuffs more effective as they attack.

[Rudra]

7 hours ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

It's neither.

 

Look, a Corruptor's primary powerset is ranged damage. It's secondary for a Defender. So the way I see it the Corruptor's primary job is to deal damage, with a side of also support the team. So they are, first and foremost, a ranged damage dealer. The Defender's primary is support, with a side of "oh look, I can also do a bit of damage." So they are, first and foremost, a team support character.

 

So no. My statement was neither misleading nor disingenuous. I don't make misleading or disingenuous statements.

They possess the same powers in the same power sets. As you said, they each focus on a different one. They are both ranged damage dealers. Defenders just focus on their buffs/debuffs over damage where corruptors focus on their damage over their buffs/debuffs.

[Rudra]

7 hours ago, Luminara said:

 

Defenders

Modifiers (at level 50)

	Melee	Ranged
Damage Scale	0.550	0.650
Defense Buff	0.100	0.100
Damage Buff	0.100	0.125
Max HP Buff	0.100	0.125
ToHit Buff	0.100	0.125
Defense Debuff	0.125	0.125
Damage Debuff	0.125	0.125
ToHit Debuff	0.125	0.125
EndMod	1.250	0.125
Fear	1.490	1.490
Heal Other	133.862	133.862
Heal Self	101.735
Immobilize	1.490	1.490
Knockback	2.077	2.077
Damage Resist	0.100	0.100
Sleep	1.490	1.490
Slow	1.250	1.250
Stun	1.490	1.490
Taunt	1.030	1.030
Threat Level	1.0	1.0

 

 

Corruptors

Modifiers (at level 50)

	Melee	Ranged
Damage Scale	0.750	0.750
Defense Buff	0.085	0.750
Damage Buff	0.085	0.100
Max HP Buff	0.070	0.100
ToHit Buff	0.085	0.100
Defense Debuff	0.075	0.100
Damage Debuff	0.075	0.100
ToHit Debuff	0.075	0.100
EndMod	1.000	1.100
Fear	1.192	1.192
Heal Other	96.381	117.799
Heal Self	107.090
Immobilize	1.192	1.192
Knockback	2.077	1.662
Damage Resist	0.075	0.075
Sleep	1.192	1.192
Slow	1.000	1.000
Stun	1.192	1.118
Taunt	1.030	1.030
Threat Level	1.0	1.0

 

It goes a bit deeper than a simple flip of the primary/secondary.

Holy wow, bury me in data. ... okay... so not a straight swap... I'll sit out the rest of the debate.

[PeregrineFalcon]

1 hour ago, Rudra said:

They possess the same powers in the same power sets. As you said, they each focus on a different one. They are both ranged damage dealers. Defenders just focus on their buffs/debuffs over damage where corruptors focus on their damage over their buffs/debuffs.

This means that you and I disagree. This does not mean that my statement was misleading or disingenuous.

[Rudra]

Said I was going to sit out the rest of the debate, but I have to make one more post....

 

You are correct, @PeregrineFalcon. I should not have said you were being misleading/disingenuous. Apologies. (We definitely disagree though. I wholeheartedly agree with that. Would a laughing emoji fit in this context? Agreeing that we disagree? I'll leave it alone. NOW I'll sit back and watch the debate instead of participate.)

[EmperorSteele]

I've had the same thought, but I eventually dismissed it because if Corruptors had higher Debuff values on top of thier existing higher base damage, then they'd end up doing WAY more damage than Defenders.

 

I mean, if a Defender's Sonic blast did 50 damage, and Corruptors did 75 (assuming the base is 100 here) and the debuff values respectively were like 20%/30%, then the next attack would deal 60/97.5 (again, respectively) Granted I'm pulling numbers out my butt because math is hard, but you get the idea.

 

I'm not sure it would be a Good Thing if they were that unbalanced comparatively. I still like the IDEA of Corruptors corrupting and Defenders defending, but I think there'd have to be a lot of work done with the numbers so that Defenders aren't relegated to Trash Tier.