Wondering about Sentinels

[Project]

Hi everyone, I'm just struggling to figure out the role of the sentinel? Seems like it does less damage than both a corruptor and a blaster, while not being able to support like the corruptor, whats the point of it?

[Vulpoid]

[oldskool]

The point of the Sentinel is one of HC's best kept secrets much like the search button. 
 

 

[Omega Force]

The point is to do ranged damage while being tough enough to survive, "a ranged Scrapper".  There have been arguments about the successfulness of the implementation, but I don't care about that.

[UltraAlt]

3 hours ago, Project said:

whats the point of it?

 

26 minutes ago, Omega Force said:

The point is to do ranged damage while being tough enough to survive, "a ranged Scrapper". 

 

This is a pretty good take on it.

You don't have melee attacks. Your range is shorter.

You survive to do damage because you are armored. 

 

It's outside of the dynamics of what most MMORPG players have experienced.

To me, that's a good thing.

 

And it does fill in the important niche of the comic book genre that was not covered.

 

1 hour ago, Vulpoid said:

 

The armored hero with ranged attack powers.

 

[Vulpoid]

Another way to look at it is that Sentinels are the actual piece of military equipment called "Tank."
A heavily armored mobile ranged weapon.

What we call a Tank in City of Heroes is actually McCurdy's Armor https://ddmat.com/mccurdys-armor/mccurdys-armor-product.aspx
or.. with Taunt running... Ghost Army inflatable decoys  https://www.nationalww2museum.org/visit/museum-campus-guide/hall-democracy/senator-john-alario-jr-special-exhibition-hall/ghost-army

[arcane]

The point of a Sentinel is to fulfill the wet dream of a Tankmage in a balanced way that any sane dev team would allow. And the only way to possibly balance a Tankmage is to water everything down.

 

Whether they do less damage than Corruptors is up for debate. Why they would ever do as much damage as Blasters ofc is a question with an obvious answer. 
 

Find it pretty amusing the OP mentioned the lack of support but not the presence of personal armor. Some people do such a hilarious job of blatantly ignoring all the obvious mechanisms of balance. You read the OP and you’d think they didn’t even come with secondaries.

Edited April 12, 2022 by arcane

[Underfyre]

1 hour ago, arcane said:

The point of a Sentinel is to fulfill the wet dream of a Tankmage in a balanced way that any sane dev team would allow. And the only way to possibly balance a Tankmage is to water everything down.

 

Is there something special about a tankmage in a game like CoH where just about any AT can become defense softcapped, while still maintaining damage output way over what a Sentinel is capable of?

[Cancrusher]

The OP is just noticing that Sentinels tend to underperform compared to other pure combat AT's.  They need a little bump in damage to bring then on par with the other classes and/or to have the AT special ability reworked to be more useful.

 

As others have said, the Sentinel is meant to be a durable, medium-ranged attacker.  With the possible exceptions of beam rifle and fire, it doesn't quite have the damage output to perform well at this (compared to the other combat-focused AT's, at least). 

 

JMO.  There are certainly those who disagree. 

[DarknessEternal]

It's a trap AT designed to trick the ignorant into making a hilariously bad decision.

[biostem]

8 hours ago, underfyre said:

Is there something special about a tankmage in a game like CoH where just about any AT can become defense softcapped, while still maintaining damage output way over what a Sentinel is capable of?

Some people want to be able to deal damage at range, with a good degree of survivability, without having to play the market and IO meta-game.  It's also a little more "focused" insofar as you basically turn on whatever armor powers you need, then just blast away, (sure, you may have a couple click powers from your armor set to juggle, but those tend to be few).  It may not be the highest-performing AT, nor may it be the pinnacle of damage or survivability, but you have a good bit of both...

[Underfyre]

24 minutes ago, biostem said:

Some people want to be able to deal damage at range, with a good degree of survivability, without having to play the market and IO meta-game.  It's also a little more "focused" insofar as you basically turn on whatever armor powers you need, then just blast away, (sure, you may have a couple click powers from your armor set to juggle, but those tend to be few).  It may not be the highest-performing AT, nor may it be the pinnacle of damage or survivability, but you have a good bit of both...

 

Sounds like EverQuest back in the day with their xp penalties for the hybrid classes. "You're okay at several things, so here's an unreasonable penalty to go with it since your life is so easy from being okay at more than a single thing."

[BrandX]

The point of Sentinels is to be the gun totting super hero with an armor set!  To be the Invulnerable Energy Blaster (Iron Man).  To be the Human Torch (Fire/Fire).

 

 

[Snarky]

I made a lot of Sentinels a year ago.  Kept trying to do Blaster damage and be armored.  Failed.  Finally made a Blaster with tons of Defense set bonuses that was ranged.  Quit while I was ahead.

 

A couple weeks ago I set out to find a project toon for SG competitions.  No Tanks/Brutes/Dwarf forms.  I rolled a Dark/Invul Sentinel.  Now, i built him for armor.  Did not care about damage.  He is a hoot.  Nearly unkillable and lots of vicious AoE (Blackstar tier 9 on a Sentinel is crazy good for debuffs)

[Naraka]

13 hours ago, Snarky said:

I made a lot of Sentinels a year ago.  Kept trying to do Blaster damage and be armored.  Failed.  Finally made a Blaster with tons of Defense set bonuses that was ranged.  Quit while I was ahead.

 

A couple weeks ago I set out to find a project toon for SG competitions.  No Tanks/Brutes/Dwarf forms.  I rolled a Dark/Invul Sentinel.  Now, i built him for armor.  Did not care about damage.  He is a hoot.  Nearly unkillable and lots of vicious AoE (Blackstar tier 9 on a Sentinel is crazy good for debuffs)

 

Just going to say it: Sentinels are more tanky than Scrappers. I think, through just raw numbers, they are close to equal but with Scrapper having better potential numbers but taking in the non-tangibles like range, being able to complete attack chains outside of AoE influences/hover blasting, the differences in their armor powers, ect.... Sentinels come out on top.

 

Of course, they potentially do quite a bit less damage but, if you've played Scrapper to death and want a change of pace, Sentinel is basically just a Scrapper that uses the blasts instead of the melee. One might say just play Blaster about they too thrive in melee, more than just some of the AoEs being PBAoEs. There's a bit of a freedom in knowing, the moment a target is within your range of influence, you can go at full capacity instead of always looking to close in further and further.

[Uun]

I leveled a sentinel recently. I found it was a bit lackluster on the way up, but once fully IOed and fit out with Incarnates, it's really durable and the damage is pretty respectable. It doesn't play like a blaster or a corruptor. 

[Greldek]

On 4/12/2022 at 5:19 PM, underfyre said:

 

Sounds like EverQuest back in the day with their xp penalties for the hybrid classes. "You're okay at several things, so here's an unreasonable penalty to go with it since your life is so easy from being okay at more than a single thing."

Troll shadowknight checking in. Dont worry that 45% troll+hybrid exp penalty was totally worth the like 7hp per 6 sec health regen (out of combat). 

[JasperStone]

On 4/12/2022 at 5:50 AM, Vulpoid said:

Another way to look at it is that Sentinels are the actual piece of military equipment called "Tank."
A heavily armored mobile ranged weapon.

What we call a Tank in City of Heroes is actually McCurdy's Armor https://ddmat.com/mccurdys-armor/mccurdys-armor-product.aspx
or.. with Taunt running... Ghost Army inflatable decoys  https://www.nationalww2museum.org/visit/museum-campus-guide/hall-democracy/senator-john-alario-jr-special-exhibition-hall/ghost-army

So 

So 

So good

[Seed22]

On 4/15/2022 at 9:26 AM, Naraka said:

 

Just going to say it: Sentinels are more tanky than Scrappers. I think, through just raw numbers, they are close to equal but with Scrapper having better potential numbers but taking in the non-tangibles like range, being able to complete attack chains outside of AoE influences/hover blasting, the differences in their armor powers, ect.... Sentinels come out on top.

 

Of course, they potentially do quite a bit less damage but, if you've played Scrapper to death and want a change of pace, Sentinel is basically just a Scrapper that uses the blasts instead of the melee. One might say just play Blaster about they too thrive in melee, more than just some of the AoEs being PBAoEs. There's a bit of a freedom in knowing, the moment a target is within your range of influence, you can go at full capacity instead of always looking to close in further and further.

Im gonna have to disagree with the tanky bit. My blaster outsurvived a sent, on several occasions. Which means, my scrappers( with a survival secondary, as all their secondaries are meant to be), who outsurvive my blasters, leave them hideously in the dust. Esp my Kat/stone, which isn’t fair since I honestly think Stone on scrap is kinda busted, and has outsurvived several brutes( my blasters sometimes do this but so far it seems to have only been my Ice/Fire whose done this so), but I know for an objective fact no sent I’ve ever teamed with has ever even come close to her level of survival. 
 

Though I think Sents can be a nice change of pace and I still recommend new players try them. And vets too( assuming you love abusing procs).

[Wobegone]

8 minutes ago, Seed22 said:

Im gonna have to disagree with the tanky bit. My blaster outsurvived a sent, on several occasions.  ...(snip)....  but I know for an objective fact no sent I’ve ever teamed with has ever even come close to her level of survival. 

There's no doubt that a fully built Blaster (or any character nowadays) is quite sturdy.  I have...doubts...that an equally built Sentinel is less durable.  

[Naraka]

14 hours ago, Seed22 said:

Im gonna have to disagree with the tanky bit. My blaster outsurvived a sent, on several occasions. Which means, my scrappers( with a survival secondary, as all their secondaries are meant to be), who outsurvive my blasters, leave them hideously in the dust. Esp my Kat/stone, which isn’t fair since I honestly think Stone on scrap is kinda busted, and has outsurvived several brutes( my blasters sometimes do this but so far it seems to have only been my Ice/Fire whose done this so), but I know for an objective fact no sent I’ve ever teamed with has ever even come close to her level of survival. 
 

Though I think Sents can be a nice change of pace and I still recommend new players try them. And vets too( assuming you love abusing procs).

Extremely anecdotal.

 

There's no way a blaster is more sturdy than a Sentinel. Just because my blaster didn't die while the Tanker did means nothing.

 

I say both Scraps and Sents can be build to similar levels of sturdiness and even admit that just looking at raw numbers, the Scrapper can have higher numbers. But my point was, with the tactical usability of range (and not relying on melee), both the offensive capability to engage faster and target more nimbly, and the defensive utility to be able to stand outside of debuffs, outside the range of enemy melee attacks through control, debuffs or hovering coupled with their unique armor changes will eventually have the Scrapper further behind in survival.

 

But then I wouldn't put it past players to downplay or just ignore range in the comparison as is typical for the dumbed down meta to focus on all out offense at close range and abusing soft capped defense.

[Linea]

14 hours ago, Seed22 said:

My blaster outsurvived a sent, on several occasions.

Correlation isn't Causation.  You're conflating player and build and AT.  My armored blaster is more durable than 80% of the tanks I meet, ..., be careful what conclusions you draw from that.

 

I rate Blasters at most 4 on my durability scale, Sentinels and Scrappers both rate up to 6.

Spoiler

Linea Durability Ratings

               Based on Solo +4x8 AE 801.# capability.   Where # is 0 to F, Hexadecimal, where F is 15. 

EX: 801.2 is the standard armor test.  If you can complete 801.2 then you have enough dps and durability for 95% of the game.

 

Anything rated 2 or above can tank the majority of official content.

Most tanks driven by most players do not even rate 2.

 

Defense Tanks rate 6 to 13.

Resist Tanks rate 5 to 7.

Heal-Amor Tanks rate 5 to 6.  Although I have had other players report BIO on Tanks up to 7.

 

Defense Brutes rate 5 to 10

Resist Brutes rate 5 to 7, but tanks rate higher more easily.

Heal-Armor Brutes rate 2 to 5

 

Defense Scrappers, Stalkers, and Sentinels rate 2 to 6.

Resist Scrappers, Stalkers and Sentinels are unrated, but should rate 2 to 4

Heal-Armor Scrappers rate 2 to 3

 

Veats, Heats, Defenders rate 2 to 5  ... I ran an empath through 2, once and only once.  If you want to discount that, then rate them 1 to 5.

Some truly exceptional Veats or Heats may rate 6.

 

Masterminds, Corruptors, Controllers and Doms are not far behind Defenders, and rate 0 to 5, but are harder to get to rate higher.

Some truly exceptional Controllers and Doms rate 6.  I am NOT that player, mine rate 2 to 5.

 

Blasters rate 0 to 4

 

Regen is Unrated, in this context Heal-Armor means Willpower and Bio Armor. 

If you want to account for build quality, set all low end numbers to zero.

 

Defenses Armors rate up to 13

Resist Armors rate up to 6

Heal-Tank Armors rate up to 5

IO Armor rates up to 2

 

[Bill Z Bubba]

Once again, seems folks underestimate the mitigation provided by being at range. Sent armor + mez protection + range > Brute/Scrapper/Stalker armor + mez protection. And it's all because enemy range damage is vastly inferior to enemy melee damage.

 

Take that Sent into melee range and stay there, it's dying before the Stalker does.

[Cancrusher]

4 hours ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

Once again, seems folks underestimate the mitigation provided by being at range. Sent armor + mez protection + range > Brute/Scrapper/Stalker armor + mez protection. And it's all because enemy range damage is vastly inferior to enemy melee damage.

 

Take that Sent into melee range and stay there, it's dying before the Stalker does.

 

In my experience, my Sents don't primarily die because their mitigation up close is inferior to other combat AT's.  They die, because the Sentinels damage output is too low to thin the herd fast enough to prevent the incoming damage from chewing through their armor.

 

That's anecdotal, of course, but that's been my experience with playing Sentinels, so far.

[oldskool]

11 hours ago, Cancrusher said:

In my experience, my Sents don't primarily die because their mitigation up close is inferior to other combat AT's.  They die, because the Sentinels damage output is too low to thin the herd fast enough to prevent the incoming damage from chewing through their armor.

 

That's anecdotal, of course, but that's been my experience with playing Sentinels, so far.

 

And I don't think your experience should be discounted. I've experienced what you're describing myself. However, I haven't had the same experience on every Sentinel I have played. 

Some Sentinels are remarkably stronger than others (surprise surprise that a common CoX problem is in this AT too). Some power combinations may have much smoother leveling experiences and/or much easier build decisions later down the road. 

The Sentinel, overall, is very very backloaded. It can be incredibly easy to dismiss its value early on. Additionally, the effort it takes to shrink the gaps could be replicated on other ATs with much greater return on investment. I think a lot of this mindset is what drives discussion points from naysayers or those pondering the value of the AT. They aren't wrong, but they also aren't completely accurate in all situations either.