issue 27 Focused Feedback: Architect Entertainment

[PorkTips]

7 minutes ago, AlienMafia said:

We can always go back to Tickets only and no incarnate slot xp at all 😒 Just like how it was on Live before sunset

 

I'll either come up with an alternate solution (I have some ideas) or return to battle maiden or other various big maps I guess.

[Myrmidon]

5 hours ago, AlienMafia said:

We can always go back to Tickets only and no incarnate slot xp at all 😒 Just like how it was on Live before sunset

Or, just go with no AE Experience/Rewards for anything except Devs Choice content.

 

5 hours ago, PorkTips said:

 

I'll either come up with an alternate solution (I have some ideas) or return to battle maiden or other various big maps I guess.

Does farming non-AE missions grant the same level of rewards? That might be something that could provide useful testing data.

[Nurvus]

12 hours ago, Bionic_Flea said:

But the sky is not falling. No one is kicking you (generic you) out or preventing you from farming from 1-50 and including your I-power slots.  The only reward you aren't getting is Vet experience, which also equals threads and Empyrean Merits.  That's not insignificant, but it's also not the end of the world.

 

Yes, this is literally the patch note and what most people are discussing. It's not the end of the world for sure and I'm considering making some alts to future-proof how I've been enjoying CoH. But you know what? There's so many games out there. It doesn't have to be "the end of the world" for me to meander away from CoH. It just has to be less enjoyable than it currently is to bump it below playing something else. 

 

I'm honestly not even much of a farmer. I'd be perfectly happy with 10-15 vet levels grindable via AE. This is important *to me* because I have terrible teaming anxiety and it's been very nice to get a character prepped for level 45+ content while solo. I know this isn't how Incarnates worked during live, but I am pretty sure they were made considerably easier to obtain for good reason. Vet levels are a good system. Vet levels in AE clearly weren't an oversight because it's been three whole years. Changing this now just feels so weird, especially while introducing a new currency that promotes teaming outside of AE (on top of merits).

 

I just wish people would understand that removing something after such a long time feels bad, and that you don't need to be a professional full-time farmer to dislike this change. The sky isn't falling, but this is a dark cloud on an otherwise exciting-looking patch. 

[The_Warpact]

2 hours ago, Myrmidon said:

Does farming non-AE missions grant the same level of rewards? That might be something that could provide useful testing data.

I agree with this for a variety of reasons.

[ExeErdna]

Personally I would have just been fine with just moving of the AE's out of starter zones(really didn't matter in Mercy) yet holy crap the lag in AP. I get why you're doing this, the problem is not everybody is up for or around to do different content. Due to we're pulling people from a lot of time zones some people play in "dead" hours. If they're 50 and want to grind their own AE I don't see that as a problem.

Hell, I even have my own methods for leveling to help me get the villain accolades in a pace I like. So I don't hop on those AE farms anymore. The funny thing is that I wonder do people know of the beta branch? Since I did use it to test out things that needed testing yet overall if there was build I wanted to test I did it there. So I didn't need to grind I knew what I wanted to do and how I wanted to enjoy the game. I only made my two farmers because really I was more so grinding Hami raids for merits yet I lacked influence to buy the cheaper stuff. I only made like 500mil and split that with a few characters and never hopped back in AE to grind like that again.

I don't know, really. I get both sides. Where people just wanna grind/farm and help people. Then there's others that don't realize there's the beta branch and or early game solo farms that can get them to 20 in like 3-4 runs... So they don't need that carry to be honest.

[Excraft]

18 hours ago, skoryy said:

Now please explain to me and the devs how that we have a healthy and thriving game in-game community when we have fifteen pages of drama over the removal of vet levels from AE.

 

You're asking the wrong question with this.  Why are people so interested in playing AE farms over the "correct/good" content in the game?  What does that say about the quality of the content outside of AE?  Why aren't more people playing it?  Not trying to argue here, just that I think these are the questions that should be asked. 

[Starforge]

9 minutes ago, Excraft said:

What does that say about the quality of the content outside of AE?

I see your point, but I would wager no one is playing an AE fire farm for the story.

[Excraft]

Just now, Starforge said:

I see your point, but I would wager no one is playing an AE fire farm for the story.

 

Exactly.  That's the discussion that should be had, at least I think. 

[Marbing]

42 minutes ago, Excraft said:

 

You're asking the wrong question with this.  Why are people so interested in playing AE farms over the "correct/good" content in the game?  What does that say about the quality of the content outside of AE?  Why aren't more people playing it?  Not trying to argue here, just that I think these are the questions that should be asked. 

This has already been answered many different ways, but I will summarize:

1) They like the easy, repetitive, and predictable nature of AE Farms.
2) The rewards are better/faster in AE Farms (drops, vet rewards, etc).
3) You can go from 1-50 and beyond faster in AE Farms.
4) You get more influence in AE Farms.
5) AE Farms are easier to AFK/Bot farm.
6) Many (not all) AE Farmers are uninterested in story/lore content of any kind. 

7) It is the single most efficient way to get all the resources you need to build your characters.

EDIT: Added by @The_Warpact :
8 ) Time, AE Farming doesn't take as long as other content.
EDIT: Added by @Bionic_Flea : 
9) Relaxation - Once you get into a rhythm, farming can be soothing and meditative.

10) Being surrounded by enemies and mowing them down makes the player feel super.

11) Not having to wait/deal with other players.
EDIT: Added by @EmperorSteele:
12) Dopamine.
 

 

I may have missed some, and if I have feel free to add. But, I think those are many of the points that have been made in response to that line of questioning. 
 

Edited July 17, 2022 by Marbing

[EmperorSteele]

1 minute ago, Marbing said:

This has already been answered many different ways, but I will summarize:

1) They like the easy, repetitive, and predictable nature of AE Farms.
2) The rewards are better/faster in AE Farms (drops, vet rewards, etc).
3) You can go from 1-50 and beyond faster in AE Farms.
4) You get more influence in AE Farms.
5) AE Farms are easier to AFK/Bot farm.
6) Many (not all) AE Farmers are uninterested in story/lore content of any kind. 

7) It is the single most efficient way to get all the resources you need to build your characters.

I may have missed some, and if I have feel free to add. But, I think those are many of the points that have been made in response to that line of questioning. 
 

 

8)Dopamine 

[Bionic_Flea]

9) Relaxation - Once you get into a rhythm, farming can be soothing and meditative.

10) Being surrounded by enemies and mowing them down makes the player feel super.

11) Not having to wait/deal with other players.

[The_Warpact]

14 minutes ago, Marbing said:

This has already been answered many different ways, but I will summarize:

1) They like the easy, repetitive, and predictable nature of AE Farms.
2) The rewards are better/faster in AE Farms (drops, vet rewards, etc).
3) You can go from 1-50 and beyond faster in AE Farms.
4) You get more influence in AE Farms.
5) AE Farms are easier to AFK/Bot farm.
6) Many (not all) AE Farmers are uninterested in story/lore content of any kind. 

7) It is the single most efficient way to get all the resources you need to build your characters.

I may have missed some, and if I have feel free to add. But, I think those are many of the points that have been made in response to that line of questioning. 
 

Exactly with one addition...time. I don't want to get on a team that's going to take however long in a trial or tf.  I can hop on do a couple farms and then off again.

In addition you are very correct I'm not interested in the story/lore, I don't care.

I get on to play, complete the objectives, and get my reward that gets me to my objective as quickly as possible because once again time.

How many itrials does it take to get the stuff I need to get to T3 on a build compared to a farm? I'd like to hear the numbers on that.

 

[Darmian]

I used to use the analogy that farms are songs while story content (in game and AE) are TV Shows.  You can easily play the same song over and over, not so much watch a TV show over and over.

 

No, that doesn't contribute to the debate at all when people are looking for some sort of middle ground between now and the changes on Beta.

 

AFAICS the changes on Beta ARE the middle ground versus what could have been a lot more.

 

Anyhoo, stay civil Folks, you know I love you all!

[ShardWarrior]

1 hour ago, Marbing said:

This has already been answered many different ways,

 

I may be misunderstanding the questions, however I believe everyone knows these answers have been provided already.  If I am understanding the question right, and I think I am, it is that these answers themselves are what should be but are not being analyzed further.  The easy fix route is being taken to the perceived problem(s) with sledgehammers used as solutions where more delicate tools should be used.  I think it absolutely gets ignored that this is an aged game using an aged engine with the overwhelming majority of the player base being mature players who have already experienced the content dozens of times over from when the game was live. 

 

45 minutes ago, The_Warpact said:

How many itrials does it take to get the stuff I need to get to T3 on a build compared to a farm? I'd like to hear the numbers on that.

 

This is a critical piece for many, however from what I can see pointing this out falls on deaf ears.  The preference seems to be to force you into laborious chores that take longer because that is the "correct" way to play and if you do not agree with that, then you should just leave. 

 

54 minutes ago, Bionic_Flea said:

10) Being surrounded by enemies and mowing them down makes the player feel super.

11) Not having to wait/deal with other players.

 

These are two very important components as well.  Along these lines, I would add that teaming can lead to being buried under layer upon layer upon layer of brightly colored flashing VFX and sound coming from other players to the point where team content is just not enjoyable.  If I cannot see or hear what is going on, it does not make me feel super and it is not fun.  This is why you see quite a lot of melee characters running off to solo on their own while teamed.  There simply is no fun in grouping up and having mobs of enemy NPCS wiped out before you can even get a shot off.  That is not fun.  Sadly, pointing these out also falls on deaf ears too. 

[Marbing]

3 minutes ago, ShardWarrior said:

I may be misunderstanding the questions, however I believe everyone knows these answers have been provided already.  If I am understanding the question right, and I think I am, it is that these answers themselves are what should be but are not being analyzed further.  The easy fix route is being taken to the perceived problem(s) with sledgehammers used as solutions where more delicate tools should be used.  I think it absolutely gets ignored that this is an aged game using an aged engine with the overwhelming majority of the player base being mature players who have already experienced the content dozens of times over from when the game was live.

I know. But with 16 pages I felt it may be a good time to summarize the answers to those questions in case new people are skimming through and want a recap. I wasn't making a statement of agreement or disagreement, just summarizing what has been said. I don't think the age and past coh experience of the community has fallen on deaf ears, that isn't the impression that I get. And while I can understand this may not be a perfect fix, I also don't think it is the AE apocalypse (not that I am implying that you think it is).
 

 

[America's Angel]

IMO, the likely reasons for the vet level removal from AE:

• It's currently possible to take a brand new character at level 1 and PL them to vet level 54 (with all six incarnates T4'd) in 5 hours.
• The devs don't want this to become the "Correct Way" to play the game that everyone follows. (In time, the optimal min/max way of playing becomes the norm. We've already seen the start of this on Excelsior, where Help and General chat channels tell newbies that they should just AE farm instead of doing regular missions.)

If anyone's looking to change the devs' minds, you need to address these two bullet points.

 

Personally, I think they should keep vet levels in the AE. But reduce the XP so that AE farms match regular content for vet leveling speed. This way the people who like to farm can continue to do so, and people who like to play regular content can continue to do so. (No-one will be encouraged to farm vet levels in AE because it will not longer be the best way to get them. It will be as good as everywhere else.)

[ExeErdna]

1 hour ago, Excraft said:

 

You're asking the wrong question with this.  Why are people so interested in playing AE farms over the "correct/good" content in the game?  What does that say about the quality of the content outside of AE?  Why aren't more people playing it?  Not trying to argue here, just that I think these are the questions that should be asked. 

AE is self contained content, I overall avoided going super hard into it, Yet I can understand why they do what they do. They're played hard enough to pay for anything out the pocket. While I played content. Like last week I played Dr Q, 6 times to get over 1200 merits which is enough to setup a new character with their own ATO set. I'm sitting on merits like some players sit on inf. Personally I don't mind them buying outright. It's just we spend our time doing what we deem most efficient.

Overall this feels like the Red side vs Blue side argument. Blue is easier, the zones are nicer to look at, there's more of them and people want to be a hero even if they're called "deathbringer666" They're in AP letting anybody new get into fire farms. Red side have more interesting storylines and I like the badges. Mercy is so full of content you can easily just miss out on Port Oakes content and go right to Cap Au. Then there's Gold, when Symph rolls out I might make that a Gold character.

[skoryy]

4 minutes ago, America's Angel said:

IMO, the likely reasons for the vet level removal from AE:

• It's currently possible to take a brand new character at level 1 and PL them to vet level 54 (with all six incarnates T4'd) in 5 hours.
• The devs don't want this to become the "Correct Way" to play the game that everyone follows. (In time, the optimal min/max way of playing becomes the norm. We've already seen the start of this on Excelsior, where Help and General chat channels tell newbies that they should just AE farm instead of doing regular missions.)

If anyone's looking to change the devs' minds, you need to address these two bullet points.

 

Ooooof.  Just to add: This is really not good for the future health of sustaining the CoH community, let alone growing it.

[arcane]

10 minutes ago, America's Angel said:

It's currently possible to take a brand new character at level 1 and PL them to vet level 54 (with all six incarnates T4'd) in 5 hours if doing a lot of cocaine

Edited because I can't stay focused for that long

[ExeErdna]

1 minute ago, America's Angel said:

IMO, the likely reasons for the vet level removal from AE:

• It's currently possible to take a brand new character at level 1 and PL them to vet level 54 (with all six incarnates T4'd) in 5 hours.
• The devs don't want this to become the "Correct Way" to play the game that everyone follows. (In time, the optimal min/max way of playing becomes the norm. We've already seen the start of this on Excelsior, where Help and General chat channels tell newbies that they should just AE farm instead of doing regular missions.)

If anyone's looking to change the devs' minds, you need to address these two bullet points.

 

Personally, I think they should keep vet levels in the AE. But reduce the XP so that AE farms match regular content for vet leveling speed. This way the people who like to farm can continue to do so, and people who like to play regular content can continue to do so. (No-one will be encouraged to farm vet levels in AE because it will not longer be the best way to get them. It will be as good as everywhere else.)

Those are the players I spoke about above. I legit wonder if they know there's a beta branch? A lot of the characters that get PL'ed I never see them playing again. I don't know if they're changing names, hopping servers, or like I'm thinking they just wasted somebody's time PL'ing them to realize they don't like the character... A lot of the arguments are really whatever. Since the main problem is AE in Atlas Park is like half a block from the spawn point. They solved that by removing it for something else. Yet that's also like complaining about people playing DFB and ignoring Twinshot. Some people play in dead hours, other only have an hour or so to play, and a lot of people are playing at work. They play something that can be ran quickly or they can AFK and not hold the squad back. That's AE farms.

[Coyotedancer]

In your opinion, Skorry.

 

Ask yourself this, though.... Do you really think those fast-build characters will never be used in anything but the farms that leveled them? Do you believe their players are just going to park them and never touch them again after that five hours are over? 

 

Odds are, you'll see them on your next ship raid, or in some taskforce after they're equipped. I'd bet my favorite Death Mage that the majority of power leveled characters are being made with the intent to be played, not just to decorate a character list. They give their players options and that encourages more than farm-sitting.

 

 

 

Edited July 17, 2022 by Coyotedancer

[Marbing]

20 minutes ago, America's Angel said:

Personally, I think they should keep vet levels in the AE. But reduce the XP so that AE farms match regular content for vet leveling speed. This way the people who like to farm can continue to do so, and people who like to play regular content can continue to do so. (No-one will be encouraged to farm vet levels in AE because it will not longer be the best way to get them. It will be as good as everywhere else.)

I am legitimately curious how everyone feels about this as a possible compromise. I really hope to see some feedback on this, because I actually think this is a good idea. 

STOP MAKING SENSE @America's Angel YOU'RE GOING TO HURT MY BRAIN! 😛 

[Coyotedancer]

Just now, Marbing said:

I am legitimately curious how everyone feels about this as a possible compromise. I really hope to see some feedback on this, because I actually think this is a good idea. 

STOP MAKING SENSE @America's Angel YOU'RE GOING TO HURT MY BRAIN! 😛 

 

Since it would keep me from having to grind painful DA arcs until I'm cross-eyed... I'd be for it. 

[Bionic_Flea]

4 minutes ago, Marbing said:

I am legitimately curious how everyone feels about this as a possible compromise. I really hope to see some feedback on this, because I actually think this is a good idea. 

STOP MAKING SENSE @America's Angel YOU'RE GOING TO HURT MY BRAIN! 😛 

I think that AE vet XP (and even regular XP) could be toned down a notch AND non-AE content XP should be toned up two notches.  That increases incentive to leave AE, reduces incentive to only farm, while still leaving both methods viable and enjoyable for those that like them.

 

 

[skoryy]

15 minutes ago, Coyotedancer said:

Ask yourself this, though.... Do you really think those fast-build characters will never be used in anything but the farms that leveled them? Do you believe their players are just going to park them and never touch them again after that five hours are over? 

 

18 minutes ago, ExeErdna said:

A lot of the characters that get PL'ed I never see them playing again. I don't know if they're changing names, hopping servers, or like I'm thinking they just wasted somebody's time PL'ing them to realize they don't like the character...

 

I mean, there's your answer one post right above your question.

 

Maybe I'm the odd duck with the perspective of playing other modern MMOs and occasionally keeping up with MMO news.  However, if you're openly advertising to new players that all this game is good for is ProgressQuest With Costumes, I'm not sure how you plan on keeping them around.