Remove damage from Impassioned Serenade

[Greycat]

Another "been playing with Symphonic" thing.

 

Like Mind and Illusion, Symphonic gets a single target confuse early on. Unlike them, it has a damage component. The issue with this is that it notifies the enemy they're being attacked - which means that, unlike the other two ST confuses, the target (A) will aggro on you, (B) can well get off a buff or summon before the confuse takes effect, and (C) continued application of the confuse can kill the target.

 

I get Seeds of Confusion doing a notify - it's kind of crazy having a fast AOE confuse that early, so the aggro on target gives at least some sort of balance to consider - but Serenade isn't unusually early or strong, and is only single target. The notification, damage and DOT make it less useful than the other single target confuses, with no real upside to balance it.

 

I use confuses quite a bit - grabbing something that does a heal or a buff, turning what could be a problem (say, early on, Spectral Demon Lords having a -tohit aura) into a help for myself or my team, etc. The damage letting them get notified and get these things off early just isn't a good tradeoff, to me.

[TygerDarkstorm]

This was already debated and answered rather heavily in the focused feedback thread for Symphony Control in beta: 

Essentially, Symphony is not supposed to have a "typical" control style play-style. The confuse is not intended to be your opener, per se, and it notifying and doing damage fit with the intended theme of the set. Among the feedback here and in other threads related to Symph, strategies have been discussed for how to make the most of the set, and if you play it kind of how Captain Powerhouse mentions, you don't mind the notification of the mobs as much because ideally you've opened up with some other power (usually the stun iirc), and then just slap the confuse on someone who you think will benefit you the most as you utilize your other skills.

 

 

[biostem]

Why not just delay the damage component an extra second or so?  Seems like a very simple solution, IMHO.  Unless the power clearly states "the correct" way to use it, why would anyone assume it should be treated differently from any other confuse?  Not all of us were privy to the testing discussion...

[arcane]

9 minutes ago, biostem said:

Why not just delay the damage component an extra second or so?  Seems like a very simple solution, IMHO.  Unless the power clearly states "the correct" way to use it, why would anyone assume it should be treated differently from any other confuse?  Not all of us were privy to the testing discussion...

Your proposal to delay the damage a second makes sense on the surface to me.

 

That said, as far as why anyone would assume this confuse has different uses.. I’d say it’s pretty common knowledge to even the most casual player that damage causes aggro.

 

I like how much damage it does now… seems like a good thing for Controllers.

Edited August 26, 2022 by arcane

[biostem]

1 minute ago, arcane said:

Your proposal to delay the damage a second makes sense on the surface to me.

 

That said, as far as why anyone would assume this confuse has different uses.. I’d say it’s pretty common knowledge to even the most casual player that damage causes aggro.

Right, but if damage comes just a bit AFTER the confuse, that enemy may already be aggro'd onto someone else, and your damage may not be enough to make them switch to you...

[Greycat]

44 minutes ago, TygerDarkstorm said:

Essentially, Symphony is not supposed to have a "typical" control style play-style. The confuse is not intended to be your opener, per se, and it notifying and doing damage fit with the intended theme of the set. Among the feedback here and in other threads related to Symph, strategies have been discussed for how to make the most of the set, and if you play it kind of how Captain Powerhouse mentions, you don't mind the notification of the mobs as much because ideally you've opened up with some other power (usually the stun iirc), and then just slap the confuse on someone who you think will benefit you the most as you utilize your other skills.

 

So, in short, the confuse is skippable.  And I'd say I certainly do mind the notification of the mobs when the target summons something or attacks me and his/her/its buddies come charging after me.

 

The damage and its pile-on effects has, frankly, made this version of confuse much less useful as presented. Guess the slotting strategy for me is going to have to be "ranged attack that happens to do a confuse" instead of a useful control power.  And yes, I saw Powerhouse's comments, and frankly think they're ... well. If we need "100 powers" acting the same way to establish how they work, I guess everything's up in the air but Brawl and Sprint.

[TygerDarkstorm]

47 minutes ago, biostem said:

  Not all of us were privy to the testing discussion...

That discussion happened during the open beta testing, so anyone who wanted to be privy to it, could have been. It is not the dev's fault if people don't go test stuff when it's available for testing and provide feedback on it. We had been having discussion on the set and the confuse power for weeks.

 

Symphony has a unique and different playstyle to it, one of which is, you generally don't open with the confuse power. Also, it's a cheeseable power--I did some random testing on the streets of using the power at max range (where there was more than one mob), and sometimes it pissed off the mob's friends and caused them to aggro to me, and other times it didn't.

 

I spent hours testing this set on beta because I thoroughly enjoy it, even with the confuse as is. On my Symph/Sonic controller, I skipped the confuse entirely and didn't feel as if I was missing anything or needed it. I took it on my Symph/Dark and use it to confuse LT's while I beat up their minion friends. You can even open with the sleep ability now that damage doesn't wake them up and then proceed to confuse away--I believe I saw someone in the feedback thread (or maybe it was Tex's Symph thread) mention the contagious confusion proc works rather well in the power (or I'm mixing up that person's comment and it was said about Arctic Air or Elec's confuse).

 

With some powersets/AT's feeling so homogenous, I rather enjoy that Symphony brings about a different playstyle for the control AT's, each of whom will warrant a different strategy for using the set. For controllers, it is a very blasty, and damaging set that really wants you to slot its powers for damage and play a bit like a pseudo blaster (e.g., you don't want a secondary that is super busy like ElecAff or Kin); it's actually one of the few sets that plays better on a controller than a dom. For dom's they're going to prefer a more ranged playstyle, so they'll want to pair it with something like Fire or Dark to get optimal positioning for the cones.

 

I'm not saying folks have to like Symph's confuse, but that we had this discussion already about it, and the dev's have already said that's not how they wanted to use the power and that the powerset is intended to have a different playstyle/feel to it.

[biostem]

6 minutes ago, TygerDarkstorm said:

That discussion happened during the open beta testing, so anyone who wanted to be privy to it, could have been.

"Privy" may have been the wrong word.  "Not interested in spending hours being a beta tester" would have probably been a better phrase to use.  So, in short, it's an attack power with a confuse buried in it, or as others have pointed out, "skippable".  Please don't try to sell me on the set having "a unique and different playstyle to it", because all the other controls work as expected, and the set in no way advertises that it is different or intended to function differently than others.  Play your 'special set" however you like, and just keep patting yourself on the back that you have the "special knowledge" about how it's really meant to be played... 

Edited August 26, 2022 by biostem

[TheZag]

The confuse isnt an opener.  Its a damaging attack that controls 1 enemy by confusion.  When its used mid battle,  you get some damage and 1 enemy helping you for a bit.

 

When you open with it hoping the mobs will kill it for you,  it doesnt go as planned and you take the first strike.

 

It was meant to work as the first example and is functioning as intended.

 

Edited August 26, 2022 by TheZag

[Greycat]

1 hour ago, TheZag said:

The confuse isnt an opener.  Its a damaging attack that controls 1 enemy by confusion.  When its used mid battle,  you get some damage and 1 enemy helping you for a bit.

 

When you open with it hoping the mobs will kill it for you,  it doesnt go as planned and you take the first strike.

 

It was meant to work as the first example and is functioning as intended.

 

 

As I said. "So in short, the confuse is skippable."

 

I pick up confuses for a reason. That reason is not to be hit with an alpha strike before even damage hits, much less the actual control. If I wanted that, I'd pick up Provoke. At least then I'd expect it.

Edited August 26, 2022 by Greycat

[Razor Cure]

Any power set that has a skippable power is not designed well. Powers can be great, average, or situational. Skippable just isnt good at all. Even with one slot, other confuse powers are perfectly fine.

Maybe poor design is too stong of a claim. I havent played the set yet, but I know (from other sets with 'normal' confuses) that one doing damage would turn me right off. In fact, most of the powers in teh set have, being cones.

Edited August 28, 2022 by Razor Cure

[Hyperstrike]

1 minute ago, Razor Cure said:

Any power set that has a skippable power is not designed well. Powers can be great, average, or situational. Skippable just isnt good at all. Even with one slot, other confuse powers are perfectly fine.

Welcome to EVERY POWER SET IN THE GAME.

[arcane]

8 hours ago, Razor Cure said:

Any power set that has a skippable power is not designed well.

Holy hell that’s backwards thinking. 

[Glacier Peak]

8 hours ago, Hyperstrike said:

Welcome to EVERY POWER SET IN THE GAME.

More people need to start using different fonts, font sizes and colors! 😆 

[Doomguide2005]

     I'd use a different word rather than skippable.

 

     Mule 🙄

 

     That tends to be where I go with things like Sleep or Confuse powers that I don't really intend to use or are very niche.  Some of the set bonuses are very nice in the Confuse sets.

 

     

 

 

 

 

 

[lemming]

I'm only into the 20s with my symphony controller and it did take a little adjustment for me to use it, but now it's not a bad little power.  Sure it's not a way to get around an alpha, but it does send someone off elsewhere and they'll occasionally just keel over after a bit.

 

I do think I'm enjoying my Illusion Controller that I had started work on before P4 a little more.

[Tachstar]

The damage keeps Embalmed Cadavers from going boom on the other Vahzilok. /e 10th Doctor in the rain

[Vanden]

The damage and notify has to stay, so the damage procs in Confuse IO sets have a purpose. One of them even has a picture of musical notes on it, for crying out loud!

[Psyonico]

1 hour ago, Vanden said:

The damage and notify has to stay, so the damage procs in Confuse IO sets have a purpose.

 

Seeds still notifies mobs too.

[Riverdusk]

From what I can tell, it seems to do pretty good damage.  Think of it as an attack/damage power with a confuse side effect rather than looking at it as a primary control power.  If that makes it skippable to some that is personal preference, not that it is a bad power.  I really like having extra damage options on a controller myself.  Probably more skippable on a dom.  In that way I kind of compare it more to Lift or Levitate, but that the control part is confuse instead of a knockup.

 

I could see making an argument that its cast/animation time is a bit long compared to those, or maybe it's damage should tic faster, but its actual function seems fine to me.

 

It does make for an interesting trade off as it is very proccable, and yet the full purple confuse set has such really nice set bonuses.