Brute's ATOs need a Revamp

[Rudra]

The concept of the brute in comics is very narrow. You could even say niche. As far as melee characters go, you have the scrapper type and the tank type. (With a lot of overlap between those types. Especially when you get into solo characters that either don't mesh well with teams or can safely fill a variety of roles on that team if they get into cross-over team up issues.) Some characters within those types are also subject to some form of fury boost, but still stay within the realm of scrapper or tank.

 

Even Stalkers don't really exist in the comic world, since they are simply Scrappers, Blasters, Controllers, or Tanks with added stealth capability. Which the comics has shown any character in the comic world can also use to some extent, especially if guided by the stealth character. They don't do any more damage when attacking from stealth than they do when attacking openly. They are just as 1-hit deadly in regular combat as they are in ambushes.

 

It's like looking at Controllers and Dominators. You have the control characters, and out of those characters, you have some that specialize in domination but are still controllers.

 

The red side ATs except for the Mastermind don't really exist as separate entities in comic books. And even masterminds can be broken down into controllers, blasters, tanks, or blaster-tanks with the command of some sized support force. The red side ATs exist because the devs wanted red side ATs that weren't what blue side players already got. And players thoroughly enjoyed those ATs, so the ATs were proliferated to all sides so red siders could have their actual tanks and blasters, and so blue siders could get their masterminds and stalkers.

Edited September 8, 2022 by Rudra
Edited to correct mastermind break down statement.

[Snarky]

1 hour ago, Spaghetti Betty said:

Fury currently boosts damage by 2% for each point of Fury.  I just wanna bump it up 1%. With Scrappers and Stalkers critting like crazy nowadays, it wouldn't step on their toes too much. Current Fury sitting at the 90 point softcap = 180%

 

And no, I have no idea why Fury sits at 90 instead of 100.

Fury got a major nerf bat after Going Rogue and Brutes mixed with Scrappers.  It was pointed out that (while not all the time) with a good build and good play, the right powersets and the sun shining just right a Brute would out damage a Scrapper.  So they beat the crap out of Fury.  Part of that was having it decay from 100% to 90% so fast 90% became the effective max.  Since they bent Brutes over the Dev table to make Scrappers happy they reached around and let Fury decay slower from 90% down than it had before.  
 

Of course Tanks wanted a piece of the Brute pie as well so they do way more AoE than Brutes now.   
 

It hardly matters anymore.  With Incarnate unresistable damage patches (and giant AoE effects) Melee damage dealers are second class citizens now.  A well built Sentinel will out damage a Brute in modern high end content bu playing wisely, managing it’s agro, and keeping up a steady stream or ranged AoE

[Infinitum]

10 minutes ago, Snarky said:

Of course Tanks wanted a piece of the Brute pie as well so they do way more AoE than Brutes now.   

 

Way more is a stretch. Tankers hit more but Brute's AOE still has more dmg output per mob hit.

 

In the end of you are AOEing a group of bosses a brute will still beat a tanker in clear time.

[roleki]

6 minutes ago, Rudra said:

The concept of the brute in comics is very narrow. You could even say niche. As far as melee characters go, you have the scrapper type and the tank type. (With a lot of overlap between those types. Especially when you get into solo characters that either don't mesh well with teams or can safely fill a variety of roles on that team if they get into cross-over team up issues.) Some characters within those types are also subject to some form of fury boost, but still stay within the realm of scrapper or tank.

 

Even Stalkers don't really exist in the comic world, since they are simply Scrappers, Blasters, Controllers, or Tanks with added stealth capability. Which the comics has shown any character in the comic world can also use to some extent, especially if guided by the stealth character. They don't do any more damage when attacking from stealth than they do when attacking openly. They are just as 1-hit deadly in regular combat as they are in ambushes.

 

It's like looking at Controllers and Dominators. You have the control characters, and out of those characters, you have some that specialize in domination but are still controllers.

 

The red side ATs except for the Mastermind don't really exist as separate entities in comic books. And even masterminds can be broken down into controllers, blasters, tanks, or blaster-tanks with the command of some sized support force. The red side ATs exist because the devs wanted red side ATs that weren't what blue side players already got. And players thoroughly enjoyed those ATs, so the ATs were proliferated to all sides so red siders could have their actual tanks and blasters, and so blue siders could get their masterminds and stalkers.

 

I didn't mean to cause that much of a derail, but I dig this sort of navel-gazing as these are the kinds of things I think of while farming instead of saving Positron's ass or whatever it is people do in missions.  Well that, and sick basslines.  

 

As for Brute ATO changes... would it be a complete fart of an idea to restore Fury to its original state (or whatever state it was when it got redlined) but attach some kind of penalty, either a -Res, -ToHit, or -Endurance% to kind of emulate the consequences of going all-out?  It's not my intention to make something bad even worse, just trying to think of a compromise that would let Brutes have their moment but with some element that would at least blunt some of the blowback from all the other ATs. 

[InvaderStych]

Hmm.

 

How about this:

 

3 hours ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

Add in a -Endurance Cost or +Recovery and I'll sign off on it.

 

We put the +Recovery, and maybe some End/Rec resistance here instead:

 

6 hours ago, Uun said:

I am largely OK with Unrelenting Fury as it currently exists (6/7 PPM proc for stacking 10-second 15%/20% regen increase and 5%/6.65% end discount).

 

This is fair.  It performs ok as a utility piece, but a buff as above might not go amiss.

 

Then we take this excellent idea:

 

23 hours ago, Spaghetti Betty said:

-Chance for stacking +Recharge and +Run Speed. I'm the Juggernaut, b*tch!

 

And stick it on Brute's Fury instead. Also with corresponding +Res.

 

Feels thematic for it to be difficult to slow down the Brute once they're rolling - hence the minor (stackable) debuff resistance.  This also gives them a bit of a unique bump without making it easier for them to hit dmg res caps, etc.

 

Or just swap the names around if that makes more sense. 🤷‍♂️

 

Edited September 8, 2022 by InvaderStych
their, they're, there I fixed it

[biostem]

What if the unique proc for one of the sets added a multiplier to brute fury generation, like 1.1 or 1.25% of base?

[The_Warpact]

Or the new proc unlocked Fury at a 100% however many times those things fire off in a minute. I don't know its an idea have the math nerds figure it out.

[Snarky]

2 hours ago, Infinitum said:

 

Way more is a stretch. Tankers hit more but Brute's AOE still has more dmg output per mob hit.

 

In the end of you are AOEing a group of bosses a brute will still beat a tanker in clear time.

But it is not just damage.  It is all effects of the larger AoE, and many of the secondary effects are very desirable to have running.  To argue the larger AoE is still not good enough for the Tank vs the Brute is either disengenious or uninformed.

[Sovera]

Giving more damage to Brutes sounds complicated since last tune up (indirectly) nerfed their damage by lowering the damage caps (not really a problem for 97% of playing since damage caps are notoriously difficult to reach unless with multiple kins, plural, in the team).

 

I would be all for it, mind, but, like I said. This is the sort of thing a dev speaking up could redirect all the brainstorming away from certain avenues that simply will not be explored.

 

A middle ground version of the Tanker ATO would fit. Not as good as the Tanker's, because not Tanker, but something that would help. 10% to all res would be nice to any build and no one would spit on it. And it fits with the whole 'the more engaged in fighting the Brute is the less attention to received damage they are'.

 

 

But if neither resilience nor damage are allowed (again, a dev speaking up would be nice) then what's left is utility. The +recharge and +movement speed for example, extra agro, Fury mechanic reworked so once at 100% something can be clicked like Dominators have and... dunno, Fold Space clone? No idea. it would mean losing all Fury and thus damage so the trade off would need to be good, but losing and regaining the Fury bar sounds more interesting than simply having it full and ignored. The problem with this sort of mechanic is that if the pay out is not good enough (Savage Melee as we have it) players do not use it and the danger of too much balance means wasted coding hours on something that is then never picked.

 

 

The current proc might not be terrible if the numbers were substantially bumped. As it is a fully stacked proc is 100% HP which, someone correct me, but is something like an extra 6-10 HP per second? On a 2.5k HP pool it is negligible. Again, regen and Brutes seem thematic (I think we all look at the Hulk as the archetype that the Brute AT tries to emulate) but it is complicated when it is an AT wide buff who then goes on top of whatever armor set is picked.

 

 

As someone else mentioned above Super-Man is never ever ever ever a character that should enter these discussions. Supes is someone above a Tanker while also doing damage above a Blaster while also having Flight that is near Teleport speeds.

 

Mediocre strength with toughness is a near non-thing. I can only thing of that one character in the Invincible series who had regular strength while being almost completely invulnerable. And the genre subversion that was the original Sunspot powers (New Mutants) who was super strong but had zero invulnerability (yes, it is as dumb as it sounds when he lifts a crane but his legs do not break).

[SeraphimKensai]

5 hours ago, biostem said:

What if the unique proc for one of the sets added a multiplier to brute fury generation, like 1.1 or 1.25% of base?

I had proposed the similar fury generation boost with one of the Brute ATO's on the 1st page of the thread, albeit with a higher fury cap as well.

[biostem]

I wonder if they could make it so *any* attack made against you, not just ones that connect, increased fury as well...

[Infinitum]

5 hours ago, Snarky said:

But it is not just damage.  It is all effects of the larger AoE, and many of the secondary effects are very desirable to have running.  To argue the larger AoE is still not good enough for the Tank vs the Brute is either disengenious or uninformed.

 

Nobody said it wasn't good enough for the tanker. I think it's just fine.

 

And it isn't being disingenuous or uninformed. My point - which I have tested and proven is that Brute AOE still does more damage than tanker AOE, but hits less but comes out ahead when there are multiple heavy targets.

 

That's it nothing more nothing less and that's why "way more" is a stretch.  If anything it was a nice landing where it needed to be.

[Snarky]

32 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

.  If anything it was a nice landing where it needed to be.

After all that you get to the point.  
 

In case you missed it I am a Brute player.   I have left this game almost completely now due to the shift away from content heavy melee can do in end game.  Granted the Tanker AoE buff was not part of that reason.  More like adding insult to injury.  Make it nearly impossible to run heavy melee in end game then buff Tanks AoE.  Fine, i get it.  Enjoy the Blaster game with your pet tanks and healers.  But since this game is trying to mimic the biggest mmorpg team makeup….  I decided to see what is so good about that and have headed over for a look

[Major_Decoy]

23 hours ago, Krimson said:

In addition to everything in the proc, add +Global Chance of Knockdown. Slot this proc, and every attack has a chance to knock baddies on their keesters. Instant damage mitigation without stealing Tanker thunder, and a bit more DPS without venturing into Scrapper territory. You're a Brute, Harry. Be brutal. Your best defense is offense. Set 'em up, and knock 'em down. 

 

Okay, so when Tanker melee and Scrapper Melee were distinct and not-overlapping, Tanks had secondaries that were more focused on control and scrappers had primaries more focused on debuffs. This wasn't a hard and fast rule, Martial Arts and Dark Melee have more control than most scrapper sets, but it seems to have been a design decision at the beginning.

 

That was kind of scrapped as they added new sets and it was just easier to give nearly identical versions of the sets to both archetypes.

 

But it could be revived.

 

Give brutes more control, make them melee range controllers with damage.

 

Maybe take the Stalker sets, turn the Placate back to taunt, and turn the assassin's strike into single target hold with some AoE knock-down? Give Brute build-up a power boost effect?

[Infinitum]

14 minutes ago, Snarky said:

After all that you get to the point.  

 

I have never hidden that opinion - do a search - I get to that point at least twice a day here lately.  Heh

 

16 minutes ago, Snarky said:

Make it nearly impossible to run heavy melee in end game then buff Tanks AoE.

 

That's just verifiably false.

 

18 minutes ago, Snarky said:

Enjoy the Blaster game with your pet tanks and healers.

 

Personally - and I don't mean to insult anyone (this is my opinion) I think blasters are crap.  I literally have 1 blaster among 100+ characters.  That isn't to say other people aren't artists with them - I get it - it just isn't for me.

 

I truly believe you are hanging on to what was - and what can never be again with Brutes.  If you want City of Broken Brute's back - you just aren't going to get that wish, and need to let it go.  We are trying to discuss meaningful tweaks to solidify the Brute niche better without letting them permanently regain better than blaster damage status with tanker mitigation caps.  If you think that was ever fair - you are simply flat wrong there.

[Vanden]

37 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

We are trying to discuss meaningful tweaks to solidify the Brute niche better without letting them permanently regain better than blaster damage status with tanker mitigation caps.

 

IMO the Unrelenting Fury proc already gives Brutes a niche; the endurance reduction makes Brutes the melee AT that can keep fighting after other melee ATs are gasping for air. I remember leveling up my Fire Brute on the live servers; the endurance costs were painful, I felt like I couldn't go anywhere without a tray full of blues. I dreaded going through that again after I recreated him for Homecoming, but I gave him a set of ATOs including the Unrelenting Fury proc, and it was fine! He felt like he had regular endurance costs. It's seriously game-changing, and very underrated.

[SeraphimKensai]

I've seen a couple people discuss the endurance reduction like it's some niche boon for the AT. It equates to a 5% endurance discount when it procs.

 

That might be useful if the only two IOs in your build were the ATO procs, but on a fully IO'd toon that has access to incarnates as well, I just don't see how a 5% end discount is really that beneficial as I can build out a toon to run 12 toggles and still have a reasonable attack chain without having to really micromanage my endurance bar.

 

Do people really need the 5% to make a melee character work? I don't think so personally but maybe that is just me.

 

[FUBARczar]

On 9/8/2022 at 4:59 AM, Snarky said:

This idea punishes certain armor types and rewards others.  Not on a good way either.  A tanky set like Invul will do even less damage and a Fore set that does the most damage will do more damage.  While dipping into Tank realm to do it.  Thumbs down.  Keep swinging

WTF I agree with Snarky... The idea of linking such an affect with the health bar is baaaaaaad.  Maybe +Regen for one and for the other ..

 

The proc for stacking +rech would be unique and useful to every brute.

[FUBARczar]

2 hours ago, Infinitum said:

 

I have never hidden that opinion - do a search - I get to that point at least twice a day here lately.  Heh

 

 

That's just verifiably false.

 

 

Personally - and I don't mean to insult anyone (this is my opinion) I think blasters are crap.  I literally have 1 blaster among 100+ characters.  That isn't to say other people aren't artists with them - I get it - it just isn't for me.

 

I truly believe you are hanging on to what was - and what can never be again with Brutes.  If you want City of Broken Brute's back - you just aren't going to get that wish, and need to let it go.  We are trying to discuss meaningful tweaks to solidify the Brute niche better without letting them permanently regain better than blaster damage status with tanker mitigation caps.  If you think that was ever fair - you are simply flat wrong there.

Well you are definitely wrong about blasters...

[Sovera]

4 hours ago, biostem said:

I wonder if they could make it so *any* attack made against you, not just ones that connect, increased fury as well...

 

That's already how it works. If a mob swings at a Brute it does not matter if it is debuffed and misses or the Brute is defence based and the attack misses, because it will increase Fury regardless.

 

1 hour ago, Vanden said:

IMO the Unrelenting Fury proc already gives Brutes a niche; the endurance reduction makes Brutes the melee AT that can keep fighting after other melee ATs are gasping for air. I remember leveling up my Fire Brute on the live servers; the endurance costs were painful, I felt like I couldn't go anywhere without a tray full of blues. I dreaded going through that again after I recreated him for Homecoming, but I gave him a set of ATOs including the Unrelenting Fury proc, and it was fine! He felt like he had regular endurance costs. It's seriously game-changing, and very underrated.

 

I still say you're under a placebo effect. Like I said last time on the subject the most I got out of the endurance proc was about 15%-ish, and this on a pylon fight which is non stop hitting something unlike actual gameplay where we bounce from pack to pack.

 

It's best not to treat it as a perma 30% endurance reduction because it isn't.

[Infinitum]

2 hours ago, FUBARczar said:

Well you are definitely wrong about blasters...

 

Go back - read what I said - it is my opinion.

 

I know they are good - but I don't like them, I think they are crap - for what I like to do.  Just an opinion.  Corruptors are more of what I like to do - the added control/debuffing is what makes the difference in my personal preference and play style - but even there I think I have 4 corruptors, 12 Controllers, 1 Sentinel, 1 Defender I have not explored yet, and 2 Masterminds I deslotted.  Melee is my preference.

 

I digress neither here nor there.

[Infinitum]

3 hours ago, FUBARczar said:

WTF I agree with Snarky... The idea of linking such an affect with the health bar is baaaaaaad.  Maybe +Regen for one and for the other ..

 

That may be true, it was an attempt to veer brutes close to where they used to be dmg wise while imposing a penalty to get them there - because there would need to be some applicable penalty to offset and justify the huge dmg increase - plus it reflects IMO how Brute's in comics work - the more you hurt them the stronger you get - and with the one increasing def+res it would eventually take the effect how SR operates - HP bar to 20% then just sit there and laugh.

 

3 hours ago, FUBARczar said:

The proc for stacking +rech would be unique and useful to every brute.

 

Agree 100%

[Snarky]

5 hours ago, Infinitum said:

 

 

 

Personally - and I don't mean to insult anyone (this is my opinion) I think blasters are crap.  I literally have 1 blaster among 100+ characters.  That isn't to say other people aren't artists with them - I get it - it just isn't for me.

 

Look, I switched to a Beam Rifle Blaster for Really Hard Way Magisterium Trial.  After ai went in with a Brute and did almost no damage because of endless deaths.   
 

Take your pick of ANY Incarnate Trial and most of the new content and I can run a Sentinel that will out damage a Brute.  Because the newer stuff leans into unmitigatable damage patches that punish melee.   A good league will have one Tank propped up by healers and everyone else on DPS except for a few healers.  The game design went to the holy trinity and abandoned the mixed class Redside wildness

 

If you think Blasters are crap in end game you either have an incredibly poor Blaster build or struggle to hit buttons.  Do you drink much?

[Bill Z Bubba]

30 minutes ago, Snarky said:

If you think Blasters are crap in end game you either have an incredibly poor Blaster build or struggle to hit buttons.  Do you drink much?

 

Blasters are great on teams. Don't see many of them in the Trapdoor thread. Maybe elec since the devs overdid it on the end drain as they overdid it with the tank buffs? I hate 'em, personally, but I soloed a lot.

 

Anyhoo, on topic, bump the +fury ATO to the same PPM as the other one and let the buff be stackable. For the other, add some +recharge and call it a day. Won't fix much but since the only "fixes" around here are based on making everything OP, it doesn't really matter.

 

Edit: And put the fury cap back where it was before the most recent nerf.

Edited September 9, 2022 by Bill Z Bubba

[FUBARczar]

42 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

 

Go back - read what I said - it is my opinion.

 

I know they are good - but I don't like them, I think they are crap - for what I like to do.  Just an opinion.  Corruptors are more of what I like to do - the added control/debuffing is what makes the difference in my personal preference and play style - but even there I think I have 4 corruptors, 12 Controllers, 1 Sentinel, 1 Defender I have not explored yet, and 2 Masterminds I deslotted.  Melee is my preference.

 

I digress neither here nor there.

I read it, maybe I should say that your opinion about blasters stinks, and that would be more accurate. 

 

And out of my 100+ 50s I have between 20-30 blasters, and IMO blasters can more directly control an engagement way more than a corruptor, especially solo.  That's the difference between being a damage dealer and support.