Focused Feedback: Stealth Toggle Exclusivity Removal

[Marbing]

Honestly, at very least, I would say this shouldn't apply to Infiltration. Its the travel power from the stealth pool, it should stack to make you more stealthy if you like...




 

[Riverdusk]

1 minute ago, Marbing said:

Honestly, at very least, I would say this shouldn't apply to Infiltration. Its the travel power from the stealth pool, it should stack to make you more stealthy if you like...




 

 

I'd be all for that as well.  I love infiltration (much more than super speed anymore anyway).  I typically end up running/jumping around 80mph with it and find it much easier to use than SS.  And you can't slot a LoTG in super speed.

[Jitsurei]

3 minutes ago, Lazarillo said:

Kind of a goalpost move from

 

 

As you said yourself, you always needed another power. I was taking super speed into consideration when I said that because I am already accustomed to running it because, again, it has always been compatible with all of these powers. 

[Dombloo]

I'd be all for all stealth radius effects stacking, but the other effects being non-stacking. I don't see how someone eating the endurance cost of running something like Arctic Fog and Stealth, to only receive a chunky amount of stealth radius, can be seen as overpowered. 

[VertigoIguana]

30 minutes ago, PorkTips said:

This is a horrific nerf, as far as I can tell. I use Super speed + a stealth IO in sprint to stack to ghost things or avoid mobs or all kinds of things on all my characters. And I put a knockback IO in super speed. So this is a net loss for .... every character I have, since I take Super Speed on every character.

 

This is not a quality of life change. This seems like some back-handed way to mess with something else.

 

Terrible idea.

 

Stealth IOs still stack with SS, and you can drop one in any of the Sprint powers (Prestige or regular)

[LQT]

31 minutes ago, Lazarillo said:

Stealth alone already gives you effectively-max Stealth

This is not correct in the slightest. Turn on Stealth [and no other +strealth/-perception power] and go stand next to a group of mobs and see what happens. They see you, and attack you.
 

2 minutes ago, Jitsurei said:

I think we can all agree Stealth is a great power and a good choice for many builds. My primary concern is that a travel power is being lumped in with a bunch of non travel powers for a change that it didn’t need to begin with because it was always compatible with everything on this list. 
*maybe not infiltration? but that was already a special case

This. I have SS on several toons with built in Stealth powers because of the synergy afforded when combining SS and Field Op or SS and Energy Cloak to name both my main's [/Devices Blaster] example and my most frequent due to the number of /EA Brutes I have.

SS has for years helped with stealthing for whatever reason players chose and all things considered changing it like this feels close if not breeching the Cottage rule regarding not only how the power has worked for so long but also how the very concept of 'Super Speed' is depicted in other media almost universally. 

[PorkTips]

15 minutes ago, Killerhawk said:

 

Stealth IOs still stack with SS, and you can drop one in any of the Sprint powers (Prestige or regular)

 

Will Super Speed + stealth io in Sprint still give me a stealth radius of 65, like before?

[Riverdusk]

1 minute ago, LQT said:

This is not correct in the slightest. Turn on Stealth [and no other +strealth/-perception power] and go stand next to a group of mobs and see what happens. They see you, and attack you.
 

 

 

Didn't match my experience when I tested it before and just tested it again to make sure.  At level 50 running just stealth (confirmed in combat attributes 55 foot pve stealth radius).  Ran right into the middle of a level 54 mob of council including bosses.  They did not react.

[Vanden]

12 minutes ago, LQT said:

This is not correct in the slightest. Turn on Stealth [and no other +strealth/-perception power] and go stand next to a group of mobs and see what happens. They see you, and attack you.

 

Your info is pretty out of date. Stealth was buffed quite a while ago, and it does indeed make you undetectable to the majority of enemies.

Edited October 5, 2022 by Vanden

[VertigoIguana]

11 minutes ago, PorkTips said:

 

Will Super Speed + stealth io in Sprint still give me a stealth radius of 65, like before?

Yep

[Luminara]

12 minutes ago, LQT said:

This is not correct in the slightest. Turn on Stealth [and no other +strealth/-perception power] and go stand next to a group of mobs and see what happens. They see you, and attack you.

 

The only things which can see you with Stealth active are foes with +Perception and foes who ignore Stealth (Rikti Drones and Nemesis snipers, for example).  If you're being spotted and attacked, it's because you're using a PBAoE or in range of one of those types of foes.  Stealth is what Invisibility used to be before the Concealment pool was revamped.

 

https://forums.homecomingservers.com/topic/28070-patch-notes-for-april-20th-2021-issue-27-page-2/

[Dombloo]

53 minutes ago, Lazarillo said:

Enemies that will see you through captial-S Stealth, will see you through all forms lowercase-s Stealth, regardless of how much you stack.

 

Woops, missed this response. This might often be the case but there is always exceptions. Jitsurei already stated most HM mobs don't abide by this; and off the top of my head in regular content Bane Scouts and most Turrets (note this one requires SS + Stealth and a stealth IO, something not even possible after this change) don't as well. I'm sure if I went looking I could find other little niche cases, but my intention isn't to make a list; it's just to say that this is a undeniably a nerf to some players and a seemingly unnecessary one. 

[Booper]

1 hour ago, PorkTips said:

This is a horrific nerf, as far as I can tell. I use Super speed + a stealth IO in sprint to stack to ghost things or avoid mobs or all kinds of things on all my characters

You can still do this. The stealth IO still stacks with all other forms of stealth. 

[PorkTips]

2 minutes ago, Booper said:

You can still do this. The stealth IO still stacks with all other forms of stealth. 

 

OK ..... appreciate the info.

[PorkTips]

11 minutes ago, Killerhawk said:

Yep

 

Thanks

[Shocktacular]

6 hours ago, Jitsurei said:

To clarify, if the stealth threat and defense don’t stack at all there’s no reason to use any of these at the same time- except for the travel powers. How is it a quality of life improvement to run more powers for no benefit?

  This.  I'm still confused... how does this change help?

[BrandX]

Yes!  This is an awesome change!  I can now use Infiltration w/ Scrapper Ninjitsu and other sets with stealth!

 

[Wavicle]

7 hours ago, Jitsurei said:

To clarify, if the stealth threat and defense don’t stack at all there’s no reason to use any of these at the same time- except for the travel powers. How is it a quality of life improvement to run more powers for no benefit?

All the other elements stack.

So, for example, you can have the higher stealth radius of Stealth and the Immobilize protection of Cloak of Darkness at the same time.

[kburd825]

please don't nerf stealth, I would rather not have to respec my cold domination, dark miasma and storm summoning toons only to fit in a stealth proc that was previously unnecessary

[Scrapulous]

Just to clarify (because there was an entire page of speculation), I tested on Brainstorm.

 

Case 1: Super Speed and Cloak of Darkness (from Dark Armor)

• On Excelsior: each power gives 35ft of PvE Stealth Radius, and they stack to give a total of 70ft
• On Brainstorm: each power gives 35ft of PvE Stealth Radius, and they do not stack; running them together gives a total of 35ft

Case 2: Stealth IO with stealth toggle:

• Celerity +Stealth IO in Sprint + Super Speed: on both Excel and Brainstorm, they stack to give 65 ft total
• Celerity +Stealth IO in Sprint + Cloak of Darkness: on both servers, they stack to give 65 ft total

 

Case 2 is just confirming what Booper wrote, I'm just being pedantic because I found it a little hard yesterday to wade through all the claims about behavior and which applied to which code state.

 

So basically, yes, Super Speed is getting nerfed: it no longer (on Brainstorm) stacks with stealth powers to give "invisibility." And yes, +Stealth IOs can still be relied on to provide that effect.

[Zepp]

I need to test this when I get home... so Steamy Mist, Superior Invisibility, & Infiltration should give me the Resists from Steamy Mist, the Defense and Stealth from Superior Invisibility, and the Movement Bonuses of Infiltration? Wait, Super Speed no longer stacks extra stealth? That may change the stealth calculations of some of my toons...

 

I'll test and see what is happening...

[Zepp]

4 hours ago, Scrapulous said:

Just to clarify (because there was an entire page of speculation), I tested on Brainstorm.

 

Case 1: Super Speed and Cloak of Darkness (from Dark Armor)

• On Excelsior: each power gives 35ft of PvE Stealth Radius, and they stack to give a total of 70ft
• On Brainstorm: each power gives 35ft of PvE Stealth Radius, and they do not stack; running them together gives a total of 35ft

Case 2: Stealth IO with stealth toggle:

• Celerity +Stealth IO in Sprint + Super Speed: on both Excel and Brainstorm, they stack to give 65 ft total
• Celerity +Stealth IO in Sprint + Cloak of Darkness: on both servers, they stack to give 65 ft total

 

Case 2 is just confirming what Booper wrote, I'm just being pedantic because I found it a little hard yesterday to wade through all the claims about behavior and which applied to which code state.

 

So basically, yes, Super Speed is getting nerfed: it no longer (on Brainstorm) stacks with stealth powers to give "invisibility." And yes, +Stealth IOs can still be relied on to provide that effect.

 Thanks for that breakdown. It helps.

[Parabola]

Of all the changes in the page this is the one I'm having the hardest time wrapping my head around. I'm just not sure what is being achieved by doing it like this. Making it so that one stealth power doesn't detoggle another is fine but why can't they stack? The stealth powers such as Stealth and Steamy Mist are useful sources of defence, why is stacking that defence more of an issue than stacking something like Combat Jumping with Steamy Mist?

 

This also creates the problem that you can be running a toggle that is providing you with no benefit but is still draining end. If you run Stealth at the same time as Steamy Mist and engage in combat, Stealth is providing absolutely no benefit for its continued end drain (while Stealth is combat suppressed).

 

Just to clarify a couple of things I wasn't sure about I've done a little bit of testing around this. Toggles like Steamy Mist do stack from separate sources (if two characters run SM they both get the stealth and defence stacking). Also if you have a power like Stealth that suppresses and are running a different toggle behind it the transition from one to the other seems to be seamless. For example you are running Stealth and Steamy Mist, while out of combat you have 9% defence from Stealth, when you attack you transition seemingly instantly to having 3.75% defence from Steamy Mist.

 

Ally buff powers seem to also stack without problem. Character A running Steamy Mist casts Group Invisibility and Grant Invisibility on character B, character B is running Steamy Mist. A gets the benefit of 2 Steamy Mists and Group Invisibility, B gets the benefit of 2 Steamy Mists, Group Invisibility and Grant Invisibility.

 

So it is only your own toggle powers that do not stack. This all seems to work but I don't understand why it needs to work like this...

[Booper]

3 minutes ago, Parabola said:

So it is only your own toggle powers that do not stack

Correct. Everything you described in your post is working as intended. 

[BrandX]

19 hours ago, kburd825 said:

please don't nerf stealth, I would rather not have to respec my cold domination, dark miasma and storm summoning toons only to fit in a stealth proc that was previously unnecessary

 

There is no nerf here.

 

Before if you took Stealth and Arctic Fog, when you toggle on one, it would toggle off the other.  If you took Infiltration, you'd toggle off your stealth powers when you wanted to use that travel power.

 

Now, you stay toggled, and just use the best stealth you have.

 

Which ever stealth you do use, it stacks with the Stealth IO!

 

Super Speed + Stealth Power + Stealth IO...I believe always worked together without anything detoggling.  So, not sure about that now in terms of stacking.