Officially Unofficial Weekly Discussion #3: Praetoria

[SeraphimKensai]

In this week's official unofficial player led discussion we head over to a land budding with potential, Praetoria.

 

What has your experience been with gold side? Do you prefer resistance or loyalist? What do you think of the storyline? What ideas would you have to expand Goldside content to lvl 50? What about gold side Expeditionary (maybe not the best name the equivalent of task/strike forces) Forces? Praetor Power Pool arcs at lvl 35 similar to villain patron pool unlocks? Fight a super Hamidon? Fight primal invaders?

 

Now's your chance to delve into Praetoria, have fun with it...

[DougGraves]

I enjoy the tougher and just different enemies groups goldside.

 

I enjoy doing the loyalist missions because getting around is easy.  Whereas getting around in the rebel tunnels is a huge  pain.

[TheZag]

Praetoria is a tough one since the zones we visit are in the past and the present is all exploded with hamidon running amok.  I think the magisterium trial needs to be reworked to have either a different ending that doesnt explode the city or explode a different location so the city remains intact.  Then the city could be opened up to non praetorians for missions since we wouldnt be in a wierd state where its the past and present at the same time.

 

Praetorian hamidon should have an i-trial off in the forest somewhere where you see his tentacle swinging around and have all those avatars and seeds back him up.

 

Then we need praetorian police/military and resistance epic archtypes.  There are alot of abilities to get started with but a few more would probably be needed to fully flesh and round out a primary and secondary.

 

[El D]

I really enjoyed the storytelling and the intersecting paths through Praetoria's content. That level of writing and mission mechanics is a pretty high bar (even if certain areas were somewhat problematic). The newer enemies with enhanced difficulties are still among the most interesting to fight, even in AE arcs - though the penchant for including ambush after ambush got old. I usually went the Responsibility storyline for the same reasons that @DougGraves said. Much as I really liked the Resistance contacts, actually engaging with their missions and zone areas was a much bigger pain than it needed to be. It's cool that they modeled it after the Primal Sewers and it absolutely fits the concept, but the tunnels are just obnoxious to get around in.

 

As for continuing the story threads... With the Praetorian War officially over, the survivors evacuated, Tyrant and his Praetors defeated, dead, or switched sides, I think most of the story points lead to things continuing on Primal Earth. I'm not opposed to more Goldside content, but the overall plot has already moved past it so any additions to the 'Praetorian War' storyline done now would require a bunch of handwaves as to how it either fits into the prior plot without actually changing anything and doesn't invalidate the conclusion of the prior arcs with Praetoria being evacuated.

 

QoL-wise I totally support @Krimson's comment of letting Goldside 50s access Ouroboros and join iTrials (and gain the ability to flashback to Praetoria missions in the process), but story-wise... Praetoria's basically done. As far as current content goes, it's been surrendered to Super Hamidon. Thinking about it though, Ouroboros access could allow for going back to a 'Before Going Rogue' task force or two, like Twilight Son's or Mender Silos'. Allow the player to actually play through the decisive moments of Hamidon Wars in the 1970s and see Tyrant's rise to power against global annihilation as he establishes Praetoria. Heck, have it take place in a fallen Paragon City as a mirror to the Praetorian iTrials/task forces, with Tyrant rallying against the death of humanity and Hamidon's invading forces. Show him as the promising hero he was (and who still had to compromise in the face of not being strong enough to defeat his foe) and provide more background on the Praetors. Marauder remarks a lot about the Hamidon Wars - let us actually see him being the man he was and wishes he still could be. It'd make a fantastic lead-in to possibly having Emperor Cole and the surviving Praetors step up to fight against the Battalion (as was the original plan on Live), showing them how misguided they were and how much of a difference they could make fighting for the right reasons.

Edited November 8, 2022 by El D

[High_Beam]

1 hour ago, Krimson said:

Come up with some excuse to give Praetorians access to Ourobouros, so they can join freaking iTrials... In Praetoria.

 

I imagine something something Mender Silos is somehow responsible for scuttling the advance of Battalion, but he did it in a way that gives Nemesis more power. Dream Doctor gets really mad and launches an assault on Ourobouros, pushing it into the Shadow Shard properly, and changing the sketchy physics which wouldn't support life anyway. 

I thought Ouroboros was tied to the dimension so Praetorians being from a different dimensions shouldn't be able to access it but rather their dimensions version (if there is one).  The Battalion of our Coming Storm which our Ouroboros is preparing for is not the same Battalion that attacked and were defeated by the Rikti in their dimension and conversely isn't the Battalion in Praetoria Dimension.

 

That said it isn't fair that to participate they have to change to H or V, I am sure some other magical McGuffin could be concieved to explain this sin there is the TUNNEL system.

[Darmian]

Ah, Praetoria.  I love thee.  Still there, still Loyalist.  Or dead in the ruins.

 

Anyway.  Shifting the levels if possible so that it isn't so damning when running the storyline from Nova Praetoria to Neutropolis that you suddenly can't do the next part of your arc because you earned NORMAL xp.  

 

Having some sort of connector set of arcs (I went to the bother of trying to write some of those, see signature) that get you from Neutropolis to First Ward, rather than simply being told you have to leave now.  I mean the opposite is true on Primal where you're suddenly getting messages to go to First Ward when you're still busy doing Primal things.

 

On another thread there's a discussion of what extra zones could be added to Paragon.  Two more zones could be added to Praetoria without having to magically explain where they came from.  First Ward and Night Ward Undergrounds.  You already do a few instanced missions in the First Ward Underground, there's just no actual open zone there, but it exists.  And a Night Ward version could be rather scary.  Especially if it's treated like the Abandoned Sewers in Paragon and goes all the way to 50.

 

Much as I'd like access to Ouro for Golds, it is possible to do iTrials if they start in Pocket D/Echo Plaza or even in Praetoria.  When I came back one major runner of them used to do things like taking the team/league around the BAF and explaining what happens where and where they needed us to be at certain times, before launching the BAF iTrial for instance.

 

I'd love for a variation of Number Six's arc to be developed, so that Praetorians, recruited for their local knowledge, could actually go to Last Bastion!  The only place in Praetoria a Praetorian cannot go!  I mean, seriously?

 

Epic style archetypes?  While interesting I'm not sure actually add anything to the Praetorian story.  Strike Forces/Task Forces run the risk of pushing you by your contacts if you're doing the story, though maybe a variation of Invader so that the accolade could be got that way?

 

Plenty to think about.

Edited November 8, 2022 by Darmian

[Darmian]

3 minutes ago, Krimson said:

Considering those of us with Forever Praetorians already do Flashbacks in our bases via Pillar of Ice and Flame...

Since the last patch we can now team with non Golds in a base!  So, that's useful.  Well, it has been to me anyway.

[Darmian]

As well as that (and we can discuss the simple replication of assets until we all get fed up and go home if need be) but the Midnigher Mansion in Night Ward, where so many go to get a fast entry into the other Midnighter Mansions so as to get to Cimerora, has a space where there should BE a crystal to ...somewhere?  A Praetorian version of Cimerora perhaps?  Or even the same one, since it could exist prior to the branching of the two realities.

[Darmian]

1 minute ago, Krimson said:

I guess that's something. Now if we could do something about Gold alignment breaking invites in the Wards. No better feeling than being asked to leave a team because you are attempting to play Praetorian missions while Praetorian. 

Does it still do that now after that patch?  I haven't tested it myself to be honest.  And yeah, it's a pain.

[Darmian]

1 minute ago, Krimson said:

In order to test it, I would have to find a team that is willing to invite a Praetorian. That happened ONCE in 2022. I'll let you know how 2023 goes.

Well, you just need one person!  Are you on at the moment?  I can transfer someone to Excelsior (is it?) and test it with you if you like.

[Darmian]

Just now, Krimson said:

I think you would need at least three people. One Red or Blue sider to form the group. One Praetorian to join. And then, one more Red or Blue sider to attempt to join from another zone. All two players will prove is that they can form a team. 

Bah, yes you're right.  And my go to gang of muppets is not on.  Ok, well I'll try to get my gang to replicate that situation for me and report back.  Might be waiting though, you know how it is!

[Darmian]

32 minutes ago, Krimson said:

My Forever Praetorian is currently a Smashing/Lethal Farmer who hangs out in Pocket D, so no hurry. 😄

Welp, I got someone to test a 2 person thing.  They were Blue, talking to Cromwell in Night Ward, invited me when I was in PD, and then the team split when I crossed into my base!  Which is weird, because we then both stepped into their base and could team there!  So, It's the zoning that breaks it in that case?

 

EDIT!!  So, we retried that. And got a third involved.  One Gold (Me) one Blue and One Red.  So, providing we invited people who are in coop zones, like you do, as long as we all ported through the leader's base the team stayed together!   Our Red tested this by stepping back out of Night Ward into a different base and it immediately broke the team.  So, it looks doable but is fiddly.

 

 

Edited November 8, 2022 by Darmian

[Darmian]

Just now, Krimson said:

Yeah bases and alignment are an interesting combination. 

 

Just updated that while you were posting!

 

[Akalabeth]

I like it the least out of the 3 sides. 😞  I just sometimes try to make progress on badges doing flashbacks.  It's got the betrayal and "evil" like villain side only there's politics. 😛

[Darmian]

1 minute ago, Krimson said:

Which means from a practical standpoint, solo is still the best option for a Praetorian in the Wards. Theoretically working is great, but I don't expect to see this happen successfully in practice. 

Agreed.  Getting people to remember to (a) port through the team leader's base and (b) for that base to actually be open to others to do that, is more than most will want to do, or even remember!

 

 

[BurtHutt]

Praetoria is a nice looking zone but the Live Devs really had no clue when they made that the expansion. Dividing the shrinking playerbase even further made no sense. In any event, we have it and it's there. 

 

I think maybe a level 40+ TF there might be a cool add at some point.

 

I also think having my alternate AE/player made content would be a good add. They could add a lot of repeatable content in there.

 

Thinking the HC Devs can add a pile of options is pie in the sky. Just add the alternate AE mechanism and let players make some content. 

[Doc_Scorpion]

Praetoria...  I'm glad I ran through it once, back on Live, but I'm not sure I'll ever do it again.

I'm very ambivalent about further dividing the playerbase by expanding it 50.  The effort required to so might be better spent Blueside or Redside where the other 90% of the playerbase resides.

[twozerofoxtrot]

7 hours ago, Darmian said:

Since the last patch we can now team with non Golds in a base!  So, that's useful.  Well, it has been to me anyway.

 

I do wish that trainers/icon npcs/etc didn't reject goldsider characters with their "I don't talk to people from other dimensions" dialog. That never made a bit of sense to me inside player bases.

[Snarky]

10 hours ago, SeraphimKensai said:

In this week's official unofficial player led discussion we head over to a land budding with potential, Praetoria.

 

What has your experience been with gold side? Do you prefer resistance or loyalist? What do you think of the storyline? What ideas would you have to expand Goldside content to lvl 50? What about gold side Expeditionary (maybe not the best name the equivalent of task/strike forces) Forces? Praetor Power Pool arcs at lvl 35 similar to villain patron pool unlocks? Fight a super Hamidon? Fight primal invaders?

 

Now's your chance to delve into Praetoria, have fun with it...

I still remember my first experiences on Gold.  It was challenging.  The mechanics were just a bit hinky on some storylines but a very good job using CoH basic to tell “segmented” “player choice affected” arcs. 
 

I flat out hated the politics, and still do.  Even worse they made an attempt to frame some of it as a philosophical discussion.  And failed. (Which actually reinforces the political angle).  
 

They did a pretty solid job of telling the stories and wrapping it up.  I suppose more content past Night Ward would look like….Shadow Shard.  Finish two unfinished things at once…

Another power pool?  Okay if you insist 🙂 

[Spaghetti Betty]

I think there's a lot of high notes to sing about Praetoria. The environment is really good. Everything visually tells the story it's supposed to (First Ward/Night Ward being #1 IMO). All of the new mobs are fun to fight.

 

I only have 2 gripes about the content there, one very real and the other extremely superficial.

 

The real gripe is that the content is not team-friendly in the slightest. All of the arcs (including First/Night Ward) feel like they were designed to be ran by a single player. That attributes to it being a ghost town.

 

My superficial gripe is about the awful Praetorian lab maps. I don't like them. Fighting mobs in them is a chore, especially Clockwork. There isn't enough "stuff" in them.

[Placta]

3 hours ago, BurtHutt said:

Praetoria is a nice looking zone but the Live Devs really had no clue when they made that the expansion. Dividing the shrinking playerbase even further made no sense. In any event, we have it and it's there.

 

I think the idea was to try to unify and consolidate the player base by creating a single new and exciting low-level experience. Of course they botched that by making it considerably harder than either Primal option (maybe intentionally, maybe they got caught up with all the new cool things they could do and forgot they were throwing them at low-level characters) and very solo-focused, so newbies found themselves thrown into the deep end with no support.

 

My big dislike about Praetoria is the mission maps are too big. Low-level Primal maps tend to run smallish, but Praetoria's running huge maps from Marauder's arc. On Primal I run most missions, at least most indoors missions, as defeat alls even if I don't have to; this turns Praetoria into a slog and I quickly adapted to "fight to the objective, get it, get out, onto the next mission."

[UltraAlt]

15 hours ago, SeraphimKensai said:

What has your experience been with gold side?

 

I didn't subscribe to a superhero game to play in a dystopian world.

The sound of the fluorescent lights are the worst sound effects in game. Why would anyone put such an annoying sound into the game? (I don't know, but there are some pretty annoying sounds in DCUO as well ... far more than in City of Heroes)

I really dislike the Praetorian Clockwork. I like the original clockwork so much better.

 

I tried to play it simply because it was the new content and my subscription dollars had going into it being developed. I hope for something that I would enjoy, but even the map seems to be lazily thrown together. Not the map of each zone, but the overall Pretorian map.

I didn't subscribe to a superhero game to pay villains either, but Praetoria soured very quickly for me.

 

I haven't even bothered going to Praetoria since I have been back... and I'm not very happy about being "forced"/"gated" to Praetorian contacts in First Ward and Night Ward.

 

Pretty clearly, my experience with the Praetorian content has been ... pretty completely negative.

 

15 hours ago, SeraphimKensai said:

What do you think of the storyline?

 

Dystopian and to be avoided.

 

15 hours ago, SeraphimKensai said:

What ideas would you have to expand Goldside content to lvl 50?

 

Give it up and focus DEV development on the content played by most players.

 

16 hours ago, SeraphimKensai said:

Now's your chance to delve into Praetoria, have fun with it...

 

That's okay.

I'm not going to play it.

I hope you find fun playing the game the way that you like to play it.

[Carnifax]

We did a wizard of Oz themed team for Praetoria last year and it was great fun. The missions are fun, the ambushes less so but became a running joke.

 

Cordoning it off as a separate "start game" was a bizarre decision by the original Devs. They'd seen what happened to Villains yet decided on a forced split again. Bizarre.

 

Like the enemy groups, enjoy the missions, ambushes and all, don't understand why all that shiny new content got plonked into a separate subgame.

 

As for First Ward & Night Ward I love FW. don't like how the Contacts end up filling the "Find new contact" thing from level 30 on.

 

Strongly dislike Night Ward. Too many of the enemies are overtuned and lots of visual spam. Making the Spells so hard to see, especially once powers start flying is urrgh and the missions aren't as fun. Time Spells can go do one as well. 

Edited November 9, 2022 by Carnifax

[huang3721]

My experience was mostly positive. 

My toon is a loyalist, but I prefer neither the Resistance nor Loyalist arcs. In my opinion, the storylines were more mature than Blue or Red. (In hindsight, they came out after Blue and Red). They also give you several ways to complete a mission using optional objectives. Some of the story arcs know your prior action, which is neat. ("Were they out of decaf?" "Wha..?") The ambushes on the gold side are better (deadlier). Also, there are a few collectible missions in the city, similar to patrol missions, but they give more freedom. Sadly, not many people like it. 

 

I have no idea about Lv.50 content, but I've always wanted a better Praetorian War. I mean a real war with a global scope and ramifications. Compared to the Riktis, I hate how the lore treats the Praetorians. Nevertheless, it's a pipe dream at this point.

[Greycat]

How do I feel about Praetoria?

"Bleh,' pretty much. There are some interesting ideas, sure, but "YOU! Go pick flowers for my girlfriend" is not exactly in the so called "high bar" of writing.  And I agree, it's not team friendly -  even without getting into alignment choices or sharing arc progress (or awards,) you team, you miss out on contacts - or you turn off XP. It feels crammed together. First/Night ward feels tacked on as an afterthought. And as added insult to injury, you "really" learn what's going on in ... incarnate trials.

 

I ran through it a couple of times on live, trying different paths, but didn't see them all (or really do the whole undercover/plant thing) before I really didn't want to run through it again.

 

Frankly, it feels rather forced when it comes to the mirror universe/goatee'd characters. Some of the changes weren't needed (why does Neuron *need* to copy Antimatter's robots? Couldn't we have had the old clockwork in one place, the new in another?) The supporting cast? The devs were allowed to create them as *characters,* so they're actually more interesting.

 

The choice system? Was the start of an interesting idea with interesting possibilities.

 

As far as a 1-50 Praetoria? I don't know. The world's lore pretty much has it doomed from the start. (I seem to recall characters talking about the last safe area in Japan falling.) Which itself *can* be an interesting story. Heck, I could see an EAT (if we had that much content) which pulls the VEAT "respec at 24" but actually does it for a good reason - you set the character up to be captured and converted into one of Hamidon's creatures. (Main problem being the whole "can't change powersets" thing... but that could be gotten around. Even if a devoured with a gun would be odd.) There could be possibliities like Tyrant finally falls (and the reveals in the incarnate trials actually come ... 30ish? 35ish?) to come back at the very end as one of Hami's creatures, which the new Emperor (let's make it White, for the heck of it, he matures somewhat) works with the Primals to defeat alongside making headway against the Hamidon (and rebuilding.) Or see what happens when Primal and Prae hamidon make contact (new sort of Hami trial.)

 

Eh. Possibilities might have been there. But as it sits right now, it's still an "eh" to me.