about Fighting

[MTeague]

17 minutes ago, Greycat said:

"Terrible" is in the eye of the beholder. I've taken Fighting on characters specifically for the attacks, *especially* after the buff where they add to each other. (Specifically on masterminds  - especially melee-focused MM primaries -  and controllers.)

 

This.  Cross Punch does quite well soloing on my Mind/Kin controller (especially with lots of Fulcrum Shift stacks), and my Beast/Empath MM will run right into melee with her kittehs and doggos.  It is always the best choice, probably not, do I sometimes get into trouble soloing either one, sure. But it's FUN, and it works a lot of the time. 

I wish Kick could look like the Martial Kombat version Storm Kick, though.

[biostem]

Just now, Wavicle said:

No, that was a wildly uncalled for response to that comment. You’re being extremely rude. You’ve explained your response to the idea. That’s enough.

Thank you for your response.  You are not a moderator, so please don't police the forums.

[BrandX]

3 minutes ago, biostem said:

The point is that power pools are supposed to be tertiary to your primary and secondary sets.  If anything, many power pools should be reined in as they are way too good in their current iteration...

 

4 minutes ago, biostem said:

The point is that power pools are supposed to be tertiary to your primary and secondary sets.  If anything, many power pools should be reined in as they are way too good in their current iteration...

 

It could've meant that before, but now it doesn't have to.  Also, since I said, make it match tier 1 or 2, I don't feel that's going to do to much for builds.  Slots will be needed and since it's another tier 1, it likely won't be used.

[biostem]

1 minute ago, BrandX said:

It could've meant that before, but now it doesn't have to.

I mean, no power "has to" abide by previously established precedents or design theory, but IMO it *should*.

 

2 minutes ago, BrandX said:

Also, since I said, make it match tier 1 or 2, I don't feel that's going to do to much for builds.  Slots will be needed and since it's another tier 1, it likely won't be used.

Well, some pool attacks arguably perform better than the tier 1 or 2 of bon a fide sets, but I think the question is to what extent should build decisions, such as power pool prerequisites, exist.  For me, it is important that your power picks be something that you actually have to put some thought into, and whether what you'd be giving up in order to select power A is worth taking it over power B.  There are already vanishingly few consequences to just picking powers will-nilly, so I see reducing them further as detrimental.  I mean, we have people asking to be able to select entirely different powersets or ATs altogether...

[Luminara]

2 hours ago, Wavicle said:

Counterpoint, if the available prerequisites are all so terrible that you don’t want to even take them to get to the good stuff, then they should be improved.

 

The same argument can be applied to every power set.  Unless you're proposing a complete game redesign to remove the necessity to hold on to unused powers from primaries and secondaries as well as pools, it's an argument that can't be supported.  The Fighting pool isn't special, the requirement to take and ignore a power in order to gain access to one or more other powers isn't unique to the Fighting pool, and unless this change is universally applied, including primaries and secondaries, it's not warranted.

 

It's all or nothing.  If the Fighting pool is "fixed" in this manner, then everything has to be changed in the same way.  And then we're one short step away from T9s at level 1, ludicrous tank-mage builds and throwing in the balance towel.

[MTeague]

11 minutes ago, Luminara said:

And then we're one short step away from T9s at level 1, ludicrous tank-mage builds and throwing in the balance towel.

I  mean there's gotta be a few steps of mostly middle ground in between there.

But there would probably never be any consensus on what's the right place to stop.

 

I will say I rarely taken the Presence Pool for specifically this reason though. The Self-Rez in the T5 is nice, and it has some decent boosts in it as well.... but man the first few powers are Stinky Poo, at least, for all my character concepts.  I have sucked it up and dealt with the wasted power picks for exactly one character so far.  Dunno. There are some specific powers I do think are probably so bad they deserve a rework... but it's not exactly a critical issue. There's a LONG list of things I'd rather were taken care of first.

[kelika2]

Just give boxing and kick some +def to enhance and bam.

[biostem]

2 minutes ago, kelika2 said:

Just give boxing and kick some +def to enhance and bam.

I think the problem goes back to developer intent vs how players would utilize the pools.  The idea of you learning how to punch or kick before becoming adept enough at fighting to be tougher and harder to hit makes sense on paper, but players will seek the path of least resistance, and shoot for that extra RES and DEF.  Maybe a "fighting" pool should have only contained various melee attacks, and a "toughness" pool should have been created, which deals only with making you harder to kill - like a mini armor set...

[Zect]

5 minutes ago, kelika2 said:

Just give boxing and kick some +def to enhance and bam.

 

That would mean that Fighting can carry 3 lotg's instead of one (In a pool that already carries the resist uniques to boot), making it far too efficient. Terrible idea.

 

1 hour ago, Wysper said:

HOW are pool attacks useful, especially with no slotting? I don't need to be putting a 5 or 6 piece set in it, when I can 5 or 6 slot my primary and secondary which I actually use.
Adding another power that actually offers SOMETHING would be nice. Even if its just a mule slot for a defense set piece.
Having to take a power that does less damage than your main attacks doesn't make any sense.

 

Fighting is one of few ways that ranged AT's building for SL def can get melee attacks to slot Kinetic combats/blistering cold in (especially non-blasters, who do not get melee attacks in their 2ndary). They are critical set mules without which numerous softcap builds cannot cap. Even melee AT's may need them to mule, depending on set and slot layout.

 

With that said, I think you (and many others who call for such buffs) are looking at the issue from the wrong perspective entirely.

 

Your view is "I'm forced to take this power; hence it should be useful and desirable for my build, no matter what."

 

The correct view is "I want weave and tough; an extra power choice is part of the cost, and any extra use I can get out of it merely a bonus."

 

[Gobbledygook]

3 hours ago, biostem said:

So you agree that there should be a prerequisite, but also with people who don't like having to take one - sounds like double-speak to me.  Deal with having to take punch or kick if you want tough & weave, or just skip them...

That's why I haven't taken any of the new powersets.

[kelika2]

56 minutes ago, Zect said:

That would mean that Fighting can carry 3 lotg's instead of one (In a pool that already carries the resist uniques to boot), making it far too efficient. Terrible idea.

Potentially 3.  Most of my melee are built to take or avoid hits.  6/6 red fortune for that sweet ranged def.  Plus having the power slot room to have a mule is uncommon

ranged perma hasten alts with rise of the phoenix as an attack however?  sure  5/6 red fortune 1 lotg fuckyeah

 

but in my mind, if boxing or kick can accept defense sets i was thinking shield wall or reactive defenses before anything else

[BrandX]

2 hours ago, biostem said:

I mean, no power "has to" abide by previously established precedents or design theory, but IMO it *should*.

 

Well, some pool attacks arguably perform better than the tier 1 or 2 of bon a fide sets, but I think the question is to what extent should build decisions, such as power pool prerequisites, exist.  For me, it is important that your power picks be something that you actually have to put some thought into, and whether what you'd be giving up in order to select power A is worth taking it over power B.  There are already vanishingly few consequences to just picking powers will-nilly, so I see reducing them further as detrimental.  I mean, we have people asking to be able to select entirely different powersets or ATs altogether...

 

I can honestly say, I doubt I'd make use of Boxing or Kick if made into a useful attack.  I'm trying to remember if Air Superiority was ever worth taking.  I could swear there was a time.

 

I know my Warshade has Arcane Bolt, taken, slotted and used because it's not only, if I recall correctly, better than some of it's other attacks, but really fit my concept well (obviously, the concept not being a WS :p)  However, I'm not sure if there is to many combos where it would be better than tier 1/2?

 

And for a lot of sets, it may not be worth it in the case of Boxing/Kick.  Still a melee attack that may not go well with a lot of range characters.  Boxing likely wouldn't be best if used with a weapon set at just tier 1/2 levels.

 

Of course, I think best tier 1/2 levels in terms of damage, so for some it may turn out better for some sets than others.

[TheZag]

I took boxing, tough, weave and cross punch on my MMs respec today and only boxing got 6 slots.  I dont plan to click boxing just as much as i dont plan to click any auto power.  I put the superior winter set in it and get solid set bonuses.  Its not easy to get melee attacks on ranged characters and the fact that its followed by 2 defensive abilities and then a melee AoE ability is huge for set bonuses.  If all you see is tough and weave,  you are doing yourself a disservice.  Even on my brute where i didnt need melee attacks,  i took all 5 powers from fighting to improve cross punch.  Then i removed my weakest attack from my rotation and replaced it with cross punch.  Boxing and kick still went unused as attacks but not without giving them set bonuses to become 'auto' abilities.

 

Edited December 3, 2022 by TheZag

[golstat2003]

6 hours ago, biostem said:

The point is that power pools are supposed to be tertiary to your primary and secondary sets.  If anything, many power pools should be reined in as they are way too good in their current iteration...

 

Except kick and boxing, which are hot garbage.

[BrandX]

3 hours ago, golstat2003 said:

 

Except kick and boxing, which are hot garbage.

 

Jump Kick I believe isn't considered much better.

[Aracknight]

3 hours ago, BrandX said:

 

Jump Kick I believe isn't considered much better.

 

And you don't have to take Jump Kick to get to the power you *actually* want (Super Jump) anymore.  Which is sort of the point we're trying to make.

[JasperStone]

13 hours ago, Zect said:

 

That would mean that Fighting can carry 3 lotg's instead of one (In a pool that already carries the resist uniques to boot), making it far too efficient. Terrible idea.

 

 

Fighting is one of few ways that ranged AT's building for SL def can get melee attacks to slot Kinetic combats/blistering cold in (especially non-blasters, who do not get melee attacks in their 2ndary). They are critical set mules without which numerous softcap builds cannot cap. Even melee AT's may need them to mule, depending on set and slot layout.

 

With that said, I think you (and many others who call for such buffs) are looking at the issue from the wrong perspective entirely.

 

Your view is "I'm forced to take this power; hence it should be useful and desirable for my build, no matter what."

 

The correct view is "I want weave and tough; an extra power choice is part of the cost, and any extra use I can get out of it merely a bonus."

 

Absolutely agree.

 

Most of my characters take punch or kick to either compliment or contrast with the powersets taken.

Example: Currently working on a DM/FA Brute.

There are times that I have a lag time power recharge(yes, I have sets slotted to boost recharge ... but still)

It is nice to have Kick, slotted with KB>KD ... it is hilarious to KD a foe mid-combat.

 

If I truly want a power, but there are pre-reqs ... I find a way to make them work into my build. I don't take powers as mules(personal preference)

 

 

 

 

 

[MTeague]

14 hours ago, BrandX said:

 

I can honestly say, I doubt I'd make use of Boxing or Kick if made into a useful attack.  I'm trying to remember if Air Superiority was ever worth taking.  I could swear there was a time.

 

As a source of Damage, Air Sup has never been noteworthy. 

But it's an extremely reliable single-target Knockdown, and can be useful to delay a foe from acting while another power of yours recharges.

[Rudra]

5 hours ago, Aracknight said:

 

And you don't have to take Jump Kick to get to the power you *actually* want (Super Jump) anymore.  Which is sort of the point we're trying to make.

Super Jump is available without prerequisite (now) because it is a travel pool power. Fighting is not a travel pool set. (And you did have to take either Jump Kick or Combat Leaping to get Super Jump before. So the comparison is still valid. Jump Kick is comparable to Boxing and Kick, though maybe even less desirable outside of theme.)

Edited December 3, 2022 by Rudra
Edited to correct "power" to "set".

[Doomguide2005]

1 hour ago, MTeague said:

 

As a source of Damage, Air Sup has never been noteworthy. 

But it's an extremely reliable single-target Knockdown, and can be useful to delay a foe from acting while another power of yours recharges.

      Yeah the damage and recharge is on par with Tough and Kick (slightly better without the synergy bonuses) but costs slightly more endurance.  The real difference lies in the reliability of its secondary effect of KU vs the Stun or KB effects of Boxing and Kick.  Between the reliability of triggering the knock effect and the near universal lack of knock protection on bosses, lts and minions ranks (bosses especially) Air Superiority is indeed a very useful pool power.  I suspect, without advocating for, substantially upping the likelyhood of triggering the Stun and KD effects would greatly increase players viewing them as more than mules or an access tax to Tough and Weave.  They appear to have moved slightly in that direction with the synergy bonuses from what I see in CoD. 

     Personally I'm in the no need to buff them camp.  Definitely other things I'd try to address first.  Their utility as mules/stepping stones to Tough and Weave are enough for me.  

[battlewraith]

There's a couple of issues being conflated here. One is the requirement of having to take prerequisite powers. The other is the fact that some of the pool powers are garbage. 

 

There is nothing wrong in theory with having to take prerequisites in order to unlock more powerful abilities. However if you have a substantial number of players that routinely take some garbage power (e.g. boxing or kick) and then never even put that power on the tray or use it simply as a mule for enhancements, that's indicative of poor design that should be corrected. Change the pool to make it more generally useful, add an additional pool to give players access to the things they want without committing them to the chaf, and/or make the attacks in the pools respectable in light of other tier 1 attacks, which leads me to the next point.

 

Yes there was a design philosophy back in the day that pool power attacks should be lesser in comparison to primary and secondary powers. It's idiotic and makes no sense in light of the massive proliferation of powers in the current game. Any power of the same tier, within the confines of an AT, should have comparable strength. Particularly if those attacks are necessary to unlock powers needed to make competitive builds. 

 

[BrandX]

7 hours ago, Aracknight said:

 

And you don't have to take Jump Kick to get to the power you *actually* want (Super Jump) anymore.  Which is sort of the point we're trying to make.

 

True, CJ has that advantage of jump, immobilize and defense going for it.  It's also a travel power pool, so you can just skip straight to SJ, the t3 power, but my point was more, the pool power attacks should be strong enough to be a consideration for people to use in place of the set attacks.

[BrandX]

3 hours ago, MTeague said:

 

As a source of Damage, Air Sup has never been noteworthy. 

But it's an extremely reliable single-target Knockdown, and can be useful to delay a foe from acting while another power of yours recharges.

 

That was it, but no one seems to grab it anymore.

[Yomo Kimyata]

"What does that sign say?"

"No bare feet."

"What does THAT sign say?"

"No fighting."

"What does it mean?"

"No fighting."

"You owe me one gumball machine."

 

 

[Aracknight]

Gotcha all, thanks for the bludgeoning.  

 

 

So the solution, then, is to do the same thing that was done with the Stealth pool, and have the third power in the final four remaining power pools with pre-requisites for the third power to be a travel power.

 

Please add +Runspeed to Tough.

Please add +Jumpheight to Intimidate

Please add +Flight to Tactics

Please add +Teleport to Aid Self.

 

These are all negotiable also.  Aid self could make you run faster or Tough could make you fly faster.  I don't give a shit.  There's a ton of these single slot wonders you can slot Defense IOs in with no prerequisite, and exactly one that gives resistance, other than Rune of Protection which is a t5.    You all scream about the slippery slope of power creep when blasters, who used to be nicknamed floor-eaters, can solo the ITF.  The barn door is closed.  All but four horses are already long, long gone.

Edited December 3, 2022 by Aracknight