Consider larger changes during revamps but leave the legacy set intact

[TheZag]

Some powersets are in need of a revamp but that always pleases some and infuriates others.  Changes get reduced or removed as the beta forum is lit on fire while the opposing groups argue their points.  

 

I suggest doing even more/larger changes during a powerset revamp and offering it as a new set while leaving the original set intact for those who enjoyed it as is.  The sets would probably end up similar enough to need distinction such as 'Beam Rifle (revamped)' and 'Beam Rifle (legacy)'.  This would allow for those changes that would force a respec on a player and allow for removing or adding functionality to a set to be made without breaking characters that used those abilities.

 

I feel it would open up opportunity to make powerset changes that otherwise would be shelved due to being too dissimilar (violating the cottage recommendation) to the set that is getting revamped but too similar to warrant a new set of its own.

 

 

[Captain Fabulous]

/powercreep

[Ghost]

5 hours ago, Captain Fabulous said:

/powercreep

 

Still pouting? Really?

[kelika2]

yes but only on the test server

[Captain Fabulous]

20 minutes ago, Ghost said:

 

Still pouting? Really?

Nope. Just living in your head rent free.

[Ghost]

32 minutes ago, Captain Fabulous said:

Nope. Just living in your head rent free.

yeah, sorry.

Living in someone’s head?  That would apparently be the person who hurt your feelings so much that you started a thread about them, and then follow them around responding /power creep.

Its a sad, pitiful way to live - but if that all you got, I guess that’s all you got.

 

 

Edited July 18, 2023 by Ghost

[Greycat]

18 minutes ago, Ghost said:

yeah, sorry.

Living in someone’s head?  That would apparently be the person who hurt your feelings so much that you started a thread about them, and then follow them around responding /power creep.

Its a sad, pitiful way to live - but if that all you got, I guess that’s all you got.

 

 

Also an easy way to get reported for harassment, with certain activities *being logged* to show deliberate activity against a user.

 

*shrug* But that's what an ignore list is for.  I encourage people to use it in cases like this.

[Player-1]

Hello @TheZag,

 

I appreciate the idea but in practice I am not sure how feasible it will be.

 

Firstly, what defines a revamp? The last cycle had a variety of changes to Ranged Blast powersets that varied from a power or two getting slight timing or numeric adjustments, to multiple powers with numeric adjustments, to certain powers gaining new functionality.

 

Dark Blast and Fire Blast fall in the first category where only some timing adjustments/stat adjustments were made to a power or two. To me, it would seem wasteful to clone them entirely just for the choice of the unchanged vs changed versions here. Water Blast had some powers more fundamentally changed where they build stacks even on a miss, as well as water jet no longer having a lock-out. Like with the other examples, it would seem wasteful to make a clone here to use an objectively worse version of Water Blast when the new version fixes issues with the old. The reverse would also be true if we were to reintroduce a legacy version of Titan Weapons or another set that was brought down in potency. Normally, players would opt for the better of the two and ignore the lesser outside of novelty.

 

Going even further, the Mastermind changes would certainly be considered a revamp given they fundamentally changed multiple powers. Comparing the new version of Necromancy to what it was before is night and day in favor of the new. Having both available may feel almost like a trap for newer players who chose the old version! 

 

Lastly, similar to the choice between legacy or revamp being a potential trap,  the amount of powersets that share similar names would be confusing to a number of players. "There is one Fire Blast, but two Assault Rifles?" This is admittedly a slippery slope fallacy, but it would be odd to many where only some powersets have two versions while the rest have one. 

 

In short, this is possible to do but the downsides would much more likely outweigh the benefits between workload and tech debt, conveying information to all players, and even usage. Was there a particular powerset revamp that you had in mind for this distinction?

 

 

 

[Akisan]

I've only one problem with this one - Unless people can use a respec to move from Legacy to Revamp versions of the powerset, it would force people to reroll if they want to take advantage of the rework to their (underperforming) set.  Probably not a problem for most folks, but if that happened with my main (a Badger), I'd be really, really reluctant to reroll.

[TheZag]

I had the previous force field revamp in mind as i wrote this.  It had changes that werent so large as to be considered a new set but large enough to disrupt veterans of the set.

 

There have been a few other times with changes reverted,  like with assault rifle.  Not that every proposed change must be implemented,  just that i wanted to put the suggestion out there so it could be considered.

 

[Captain Fabulous]

18 hours ago, Ghost said:

yeah, sorry.

Living in someone’s head?  That would apparently be the person who hurt your feelings so much that you started a thread about them, and then follow them around responding /power creep.

Its a sad, pitiful way to live - but if that all you got, I guess that’s all you got.

 

 

Nah man, I know you're sorry about all the recent power creep, I get it, it really has to be stopped. But it just takes too much time to post a wall of text as to why any changes no matter how small would result in an unacceptable amount of power creep and therefore cannot in any way be implemented. I'm just shortening it to let everyone know how much I hate all their ideas and that I'm still mad the game isn't on issue 0, exactly as the live devs envisioned it. 👍

Edited July 18, 2023 by Captain Fabulous

[Captain Fabulous]

17 hours ago, Greycat said:

 

 

Also an easy way to get reported for harassment, with certain activities *being logged* to show deliberate activity against a user.

 

*shrug* But that's what an ignore list is for.  I encourage people to use it in cases like this.

I'm only trying to preserve the integrity of the game, and prevent the devs from ever changing anything that might lead to even the tiniest amount of power creep, which I think we both know would destroy the game as we know it. I would think considering your extreme vocal displeasure at every single change ever made (or even suggested) you'd appreciate my efforts. 🤷

[Psi-bolt]

3 hours ago, Player-1 said:

Hello @TheZag,

 

I appreciate the idea but in practice I am not sure how feasible it will be.

 

Firstly, what defines a revamp? The last cycle had a variety of changes to Ranged Blast powersets that varied from a power or two getting slight timing or numeric adjustments, to multiple powers with numeric adjustments, to certain powers gaining new functionality.

 

Dark Blast and Fire Blast fall in the first category where only some timing adjustments/stat adjustments were made to a power or two. To me, it would seem wasteful to clone them entirely just for the choice of the unchanged vs changed versions here. Water Blast had some powers more fundamentally changed where they build stacks even on a miss, as well as water jet no longer having a lock-out. Like with the other examples, it would seem wasteful to make a clone here to use an objectively worse version of Water Blast when the new version fixes issues with the old. The reverse would also be true if we were to reintroduce a legacy version of Titan Weapons or another set that was brought down in potency. Normally, players would opt for the better of the two and ignore the lesser outside of novelty.

 

Going even further, the Mastermind changes would certainly be considered a revamp given they fundamentally changed multiple powers. Comparing the new version of Necromancy to what it was before is night and day in favor of the new. Having both available may feel almost like a trap for newer players who chose the old version! 

 

Lastly, similar to the choice between legacy or revamp being a potential trap,  the amount of powersets that share similar names would be confusing to a number of players. "There is one Fire Blast, but two Assault Rifles?" This is admittedly a slippery slope fallacy, but it would be odd to many where only some powersets have two versions while the rest have one. 

 

In short, this is possible to do but the downsides would much more likely outweigh the benefits between workload and tech debt, conveying information to all players, and even usage. Was there a particular powerset revamp that you had in mind for this distinction?

 

 

 

I agree, but I would suggest alternative powers like with Sentinel Super Reflexes.  Where if you take the revamped power you can't take the legacy power.  

[arcane]

This ain’t the Captain’s first batch of cringe posts.

[MJABBAR88]

3 hours ago, TheZag said:

I had the previous force field revamp in mind as i wrote this.  It had changes that werent so large as to be considered a new set but large enough to disrupt veterans of the set.

 

There have been a few other times with changes reverted,  like with assault rifle.  Not that every proposed change must be implemented,  just that i wanted to put the suggestion out there so it could be considered.

 

I was so disappointed with the changes to force bubble. That was such a fun power

[Player-1]

1 hour ago, Psi-bolt said:

I agree, but I would suggest alternative powers like with Sentinel Super Reflexes.  Where if you take the revamped power you can't take the legacy power.  

 

That implementation unfortunately had many complications under the hood from what I understand such as needing special considerations for the re-spec screen. If there is ever a way to add more alternative powers without the loopholes Sentinel Super Reflexes then it is something to consider.

[Troo]

On 7/18/2023 at 11:18 AM, Player-1 said:

Hello @TheZag,

 

I appreciate the idea but in practice I am not sure how feasible it will be.

 

Firstly, what defines a revamp? The last cycle had a variety of changes to Ranged Blast powersets that varied from a power or two getting slight timing or numeric adjustments, to multiple powers with numeric adjustments, to certain powers gaining new functionality.

 

Dark Blast and Fire Blast fall in the first category where only some timing adjustments/stat adjustments were made to a power or two. To me, it would seem wasteful to clone them entirely just for the choice of the unchanged vs changed versions here. Water Blast had some powers more fundamentally changed where they build stacks even on a miss, as well as water jet no longer having a lock-out. Like with the other examples, it would seem wasteful to make a clone here to use an objectively worse version of Water Blast when the new version fixes issues with the old. The reverse would also be true if we were to reintroduce a legacy version of Titan Weapons or another set that was brought down in potency. Normally, players would opt for the better of the two and ignore the lesser outside of novelty.

 

Going even further, the Mastermind changes would certainly be considered a revamp given they fundamentally changed multiple powers. Comparing the new version of Necromancy to what it was before is night and day in favor of the new. Having both available may feel almost like a trap for newer players who chose the old version! 

 

Lastly, similar to the choice between legacy or revamp being a potential trap,  the amount of powersets that share similar names would be confusing to a number of players. "There is one Fire Blast, but two Assault Rifles?" This is admittedly a slippery slope fallacy, but it would be odd to many where only some powersets have two versions while the rest have one. 

 

In short, this is possible to do but the downsides would much more likely outweigh the benefits between workload and tech debt, conveying information to all players, and even usage. Was there a particular powerset revamp that you had in mind for this distinction?

 

 

 

In short, this is possible to do... (that's what I just read @TheZag)

 

..but folks choose not too.

I totally agree that minor changes or corrections to overpowered sets might not be applicable.

That said, 'revamps' could absolutely be considered.

This could be a great way to skirt the cottage rule guideline.

Each reason you listed to not do it could be flipped around.

Many of the revamps already come with new powers or changed power names.

 

How would you choose? I trust Homecoming to use good judgement and their willingness to listen to reasonable feedback.

"I know it when I see it" -Supreme Court justice Potter Stewart

 

Given that less and less folks participate in development, this is a fair request which could be considered.

 

It might help with many scenarios:

• Players who take a break to come back to wildly different characters that they've invested time into.
• Players who don't feel heard in the open Beta process because they were too late in the cycle.
• Player could play both versions and decide for themselves which they prefer.
• Changes to Regen could be possible without impacting the many who like Regen with a tweak versus the idea of a total revamp in order to chase the meta or some maniacal vision of what Regen should be.
  • "not all sets have to be the same" -Troo
• Cottage Rule.
• Dark Armor.

 

Consider this: If the new Force Field sets are so great and such improvements who cares if someone chooses to play the old version? Play how you want.

Give players options.

 

 

Edited July 20, 2023 by Troo

[Glacier Peak]

21 hours ago, Troo said:

Given that less and less folks participate in development, this is a fair request which could be considered.

 

I'm not seeing how you could say this, at least without any evidence. Can you explain how you came to this conclusion? I see folks requesting access to testing and providing feedback to testing requests with consistency. Heck, even on the HC Team side, there are more developers than I've ever seen before. 

[Ruin Mage]

It's Troo, he makes shit up and hopes it sticks.

 

On 7/18/2023 at 4:24 PM, Captain Fabulous said:

I'm only trying to preserve the integrity of the game

Noble aspirations, but integrity more or less went out the window the moment this game died in 2012 - though you'll disagree with me there.

 

 

On 7/18/2023 at 4:24 PM, Captain Fabulous said:

prevent the devs from ever changing anything that might lead to even the tiniest amount of power creep

Arguably the worst follow-up in my experience. Power Creep and the worries of such kind of don't work in my opinion - it's a superhero game with a scaling difficulty system (notoriety) + challenge settings (including custom ones made by HC) so things are meant to be skewered.

Power Creep would be something I'd see being more valid if this wasn't City of Fire Blast & Cold Domination - these two sets dominate and clear all others in their area. Not sure about melee sets or armor sets but those ATs tend to have more sets that perform well vs that are below mediocre.

Also you can't really prevent the devs from doing anything if they're dead set on a change.

 

 

On 7/18/2023 at 2:18 PM, TheZag said:

There have been a few other times with changes reverted,  like with assault rifle.

AR was a weird case of people coming out of the woodworks to defend the objectively worst power of the set. I'd say there's better examples of Reverted Changes, but the only ones I can think of power-wise was Eagle's Claw and Dark Consumption - both of which were going to get very minor changes in an earlier Page. But that was a case, IIRC, of them not being satisfied with the final product.

[GM Crumpet]

On 7/18/2023 at 10:18 PM, Captain Fabulous said:

Nah man, I know you're sorry about all the recent power creep, I get it, it really has to be stopped. But it just takes too much time to post a wall of text as to why any changes no matter how small would result in an unacceptable amount of power creep and therefore cannot in any way be implemented. I'm just shortening it to let everyone know how much I hate all their ideas and that I'm still mad the game isn't on issue 0, exactly as the live devs envisioned it. 👍

Things change. That's the nature of things. Our team tries to look at what is underperforming or is bad and make them comparable to others. Constantly calling it power creep and demanding everything is set in stone and is never changed again is not helpful or productive, and frankly isn't going to ever happen. Even Rebirth, which prides itself on minimal changes from live, has updates and changes, though not as big or as many as other servers. We could of course walk away and just maintain a version frozen in amber like a lot of legacy games do, but the reason we are popular and the biggest server by a long way is the fact we have a dynamic team that works hard on stability and balance. If people don't like that they are free to go find another server to play on more to their liking. That's the beauty of it. There are so many flavours of the game that if you don't like one version there are others out there easily accessible that may be more to your liking. We don't generally discuss other servers or what they do for their players as it's not fair to them and they don't have a right to respond, but we don't have any bad feeling towards them and actually think their existence is a good thing.  Players have options if they don't like the direction one is going in to try a different one. 

[Zect]

This idea is just dumb, before even getting into tech debt and version control and so on.

 

If a powerset is nerfed to preserve balance and players are allowed to still play the legacy un-nerfed version, then what's the point of balance changes in the first place? This is just a way for munchkins to try and dodge the well-deserved nerfs headed your way.

 

Finally, pushback against the FF revamp has nothing to do with "veterans" not liking the new changes. It is because I and numerous others realize that 1) the continued proliferation of -res is harmful to the game - there are now only three (out of 16) buffdebuff sets with no -res, and one of them is kin; that 2) adding the most powerful offensive debuff to the most defensively powerful set makes it grossly overpowered; and 3) in general this is reflective of a failure to make a pure defensive set worth playing (basically, dps is too valuable in the current iteration of the game).

[Bionic_Flea]

5 minutes ago, Zect said:

2) adding the most powerful offensive debuff to the most defensively powerful set makes it grossly overpowered;

 

I will need proof that Force Field is now grossly overpowered.  From my experience it is better than it was but no where near overpowered, let alone grossly overpowered, but maybe I'm missing something.

 

PS: Dear @GM Crumpet:  You just fell into Captain Fabulous' trap.  Cap't Fab has been on an ANTI-power creep rant recently and his post was dripping in sarcasm.

Edited July 21, 2023 by Bionic_Flea

[Captain Fabulous]

2 hours ago, Bionic_Flea said:

PS: Dear @GM Crumpet:  You just fell into Captain Fabulous' trap.  Cap't Fab has been on an ANTI-power creep rant recently and his post was dripping in sarcasm.

 

[Solarverse]

On 7/18/2023 at 3:18 PM, TheZag said:

I had the previous force field revamp in mind as i wrote this.  It had changes that werent so large as to be considered a new set but large enough to disrupt veterans of the set.

 

There have been a few other times with changes reverted,  like with assault rifle.  Not that every proposed change must be implemented,  just that i wanted to put the suggestion out there so it could be considered.

 

 

PK (also known as The Philotic Knight) now known as @Nope would probably love this. As I recall, he was arguably the largest fan of Force Field and the most dedicated Force Field player in game. He knew that set better than anyone else in game and mastered it to the brink of new level understanding of the set. Yeah, I layed it on thick there, but you get my point. If I am not mistaken, he left the game over the changes to the set and how he was treated by trying to express his opinion about the set by players/posters who never really even played the set. There is a lot more to it than this, much more, but that is all I am willing to say about it. My point being, I'm sure PK would be thrilled if this would be implemented. I for one would like to see this man happy once again if this were to be made a reality.

[GM Crumpet]

9 hours ago, Captain Fabulous said:

 

It's not that I'm against sarcasm, but it's a point of view that some people actually hold so putting the record straight doesn't hurt. I've genuinely had abusive DM's stating that we have ruined the game for the player and that one change has destroyed their life. It got particularly bad when the changes came through for fire powers and AFK farms suddenly became lethal overnight. You'd think our dev team had publicly sacrificed puppies to the great god Imhotep the way some people reacted.