[Let's Brainstorm] The Last 4 Incarnate Slots

[ThatGuyCDude]

The Incarnate system was still under active development before NCSoft's shutdown, and four slots from the original intention remained undeveloped and unfinished.  Of these, the only information we have is their names, and the original intention of the Advanced Physical Incarnate slot adjacent to Hybrid--Genesis (this information can be found on the Wiki).

 

Genesis was meant to be ground-target fields that bolstered allies or debuffed enemies.
The remaining three slots were to be called Mind (Advanced Psychic), Vitae (Advanced Physical), and Omega (Final Slot).

EDIT: Based on feedback in this thread, this idea has been revised.  See the revised idea further down the thread.
 

---------------------------------------------------------------

Everything below this point in this initial post is left for record-keeping purposes so that the responses that followed make sense.  It is no longer relevant to the proposal at hand.

--------------------------------------------------------------

 

Looking at the existing components of the Incarnate system, each 'row' has emphasized one of the game's playstyles: Judgment and Interface are Melee, Lore and Destiny are Support, and Hybrid and Genesis would have been Control.  That would suggest that the last two forked slots would fill the playstyle of Range.

 

To that end, let's come up with powers for the unfinished slots using existing assets.  First, the Genesis Slot.

 

Genesis (Advanced Psychic Slot - Location AoE Control)

We've already got Support covered with the Destiny slot, so having abilities in Genesis that buff allies is redundant.  Instead, let's focus on debuffing enemies with Location AoEs.  The Blaster pseudopet attacks like Fire Rain work for the targeting component, and we already have an array of debuff options to utilize from the Interface slot.  I propose the Genesis slot recycle Blaster Location AoE graphics with Interface rider effects (at higher percentages).  The Wiki says the Core branch would improve Area Effect while the Radial branch would allow multiple smaller patches to be dropped... to achieve the Radial effect, tack on a rider status that keeps the ability off cooldown until it has been used <x> times or <y> seconds have passed, much like how Combat Teleportation works.

 

Moving on, we have the Mind and Vitae slots.

 

Mind (Advanced Psychic Slot - Ranged Single Target Nuke)

All of the existing Incarnate slots emphasize area-of-effect and wading into the middle of a swarm of enemies.  Having a single-target attack in the mix would offer an opening salvo-pull move that can be dropped on a target.  For convenience, we'll copy the Blaster sniper shots with longer cooldowns, and add the Judgment attack riders for variety.  The Core branch emphasizes raw damage while the Radial branch offers additional effects.

 

Vitae (Advanced Physical Slot - Armor Toggle)

This is a tough one.  I thought hard about the Incarnate click abilities and which archetypes they represent.  Judgment screams Scrapper.  Destiny is a Defender move.  What was originally discussed for Genesis in the Dev AMA felt like a Controller move.  Blaster and Tank were missing... and together they make the Sentinel.  It's a perfect fit, which makes having Vitae as an armor ability ALSO a perfect fit.  Vitae would be a self-heal and resistance buff on an extremely long cooldown, with Radial emphasizing damage type variety and Core emphasizing magnitude.  Like Destiny, Vitae would also come with an Incarnate Shift of Level at higher rarities.  Based on the 'flavor' of the slot, it could recycle toggle armor graphics from Tanker animations.

If coming up with new effects is too much work, duplicate the Destiny buffs on the user only with higher magnitude.  Think "Moment of Glory"

 

Lastly, there's the question of the Omega slot...

 

Omega (Final Slot)

It's going to sound tacky, but we begin where we end.  The Omega slot is an exact copy of the Alpha slot, level shift and all (NOT an Incarnate shift).  The player can double down on what they boosted initially or they can diversify to fill any remaining gaps in their build.

 

Obviously these sorts of additions would have to be accompanied with more challenging content to match.  As a stop-gap, increasing the player's ability to shift notoriety level (up to +8 from +4) and notoriety count (to x12 from x8) would be a place to start.

 

One last thought: just as the system starts and ends in the same place, it would be fascinating to run the unlock arc's first mission again as its last mission, only this time with the player's Incarnates equipped instead of the 'foggy' invincibility buffs.

 

TL, DR: Finish the last four Incarnate Slots with existing assets.

Genesis Slot using Blaster Location AoE's with Spectral Slot effects.

Mind Slot using Blaster Sniper Shots with Judgment Slot effects.

Vitae Slot as a self-heal and resistance activation, a "Moment of Glory" self-buff (maybe with Destiny Slot effects).

Omega as a second copy of Alpha.

Increase Notoriety limits to Level + 8 and Count x 12

Edited March 21 by ThatGuyCDude
Add link to revised idea downthread, added clarity

[Greycat]

Eh. Personally I can do without more incarnate slots, unless their use is very limited (IE, *only* Incarnate/multi-star content.)

[Rudra]

I'm not seeing how Judgment and Interface are melee themes. Or how Lore is support. Judgment can be melee if you go with a PBAoE, but the rest are ranged. Either cones or TAoEs. Interface affects all your attack powers, even the ranged ones, granting them debuff effects and supplemental damage effects, so not a melee effect/theme. Hybrid is a buff, not a control theme, though you can get control elements from it. Your rationalization makes no sense to me.

 

And as far as what @Greycat is saying, I wholeheartedly agree. If the original 10 incarnate slots are to be finished, the remaining ones should be completely disabled when outside of incarnate content.

[Player2]

I wouldn't sign off on disabling incarnate powers except in Task Forces where such limitation is specifically selected.

 

I'm curious, though:  were the remaining incarnate slots ever discussed by the original developers?  I seem to recall there was an after-shutdown discussion where people got to ask questions about the game lore and possible plans...  did anyone ever think to ask about incarnate stuff?

[ThatGuyCDude]

32 minutes ago, Player2 said:

I'm curious, though:  were the remaining incarnate slots ever discussed by the original developers?  I seem to recall there was an after-shutdown discussion where people got to ask questions about the game lore and possible plans...  did anyone ever think to ask about incarnate stuff?

Aside from names, the only slot that was ever discussed was the next one in development, Genesis (according to the Wiki), which was meant to be a ground AoE activation (one location for Core, several for Radial).

 

As for Rudra's comments:

The essence of melee attack sets is strike with rider effect (damage over time, disorient, knockback, knockdown, slow, take your pick) and melee combat has an emphasis on AoE attacks.  While 'blasting' has AoE attacks, its emphasis is on single-target focus damage.  Regardless of whether the incarnate is melee or ranged, the Judgment and Interface slots FEEL like Melee-class powers, whereas something that emphasizes self-buffing and single-target attacks is more in line with Range-class powers.  That was my point.
The Support argument is more esoteric: characters in support roles rely on other characters to do the bulk of the fighting for them, and that is where Lore comes in.  Lore and Destiny together evoke Mastermind, which was originally designed to be the Villain Defender role, hence the conclusion I draw that the 'row' was meant to say "Support".

I'm fine with a dialed-back version of the powers outside of Incarnate-specific content, but having buttons that are perma-exemplared feels wrong (in my opinion), especially when keybound.  Given that Giant Monsters are being buffed through the roof, though, I don't see a problem with incarnate abilities remaining important or growing to match in the PvE environment.  Nerf them if you like, but don't turn them off.

[Glacier Peak]

I'm not in any rush to add more incarnate powers to the game. Power creep and all. 

[Rudra]

20 minutes ago, ThatGuyCDude said:

I'm fine with a dialed-back version of the powers outside of Incarnate-specific content, but having buttons that are perma-exemplared feels wrong (in my opinion), especially when keybound.  Given that Giant Monsters are being buffed through the roof, though, I don't see a problem with incarnate abilities remaining important or growing to match in the PvE environment.  Nerf them if you like, but don't turn them off.

No one said anything about turning existing incarnate powers off. The comments in this thread were for any new incarnate power slots to only be available in appropriate incarnate (and possibly Hard Mode) content.

 

22 minutes ago, ThatGuyCDude said:

The essence of melee attack sets is strike with rider effect (damage over time, disorient, knockback, knockdown, slow, take your pick) and melee combat has an emphasis on AoE attacks.  While 'blasting' has AoE attacks, its emphasis is on single-target focus damage.  Regardless of whether the incarnate is melee or ranged, the Judgment and Interface slots FEEL like Melee-class powers, whereas something that emphasizes self-buffing and single-target attacks is more in line with Range-class powers.  That was my point.
The Support argument is more esoteric: characters in support roles rely on other characters to do the bulk of the fighting for them, and that is where Lore comes in.  Lore and Destiny together evoke Mastermind, which was originally designed to be the Villain Defender role, hence the conclusion I draw that the 'row' was meant to say "Support".

This is going to devolve into yet another argument that has little to nothing to do with the OP, so I'm stepping out. I'll leave it at I disagree with your presentation.

[biostem]

We need to look at what we already have and see what's missing.  We have passive/procs (interface), we have something akin to a T9/nuke (judgement), we have pet summons (lore), we have some sort of click buff (destiny), we have a toggle buff (hybrid), then we have what amounts to a global enhancement (alpha).  What *don't* we have?  Maybe some sort of super-movement powers?  Maybe something akin to a Kheldian's Nova/Dwarf form that allows you to transform into something with powers you didn't have before.  What about powers that fundamentally change the world around you, (would be represented as a decently sized location-based power that altered some characteristics, like increased damage for allies while reducing that of enemies).  What if you could call forth your very shadow and have them fight alongside you, (sort of like the shadow dopplegangers from Positron 1).  Maybe one of the powers could summon a sort of "spirit animal" or familiar, which provides a passive buff as long as it survives, (it would be significantly tougher than the START buff pets but have no attacks of its own).

[megaericzero]

IIRC, there were mentions of other slot and ability ideas sprinkled in the dev AMAs.

 

A couple of proposed Genesis options were Tar Patch +RA* and Sleet + AM.

^{* dunno which RA they meant when using this abbreviation}

 

One slot would've let us "swap one stat for another."

 

Omega seemed like another decisive finisher with examples being "make enemies fight for you for a time and then explode" and "nuke enemies with your magnificence." I want to say there was also "instant recharge on all powers for a time," "pbaoe level shifts", and "doppelgangers of yourself" (perhaps like Trapdoor?).

 

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.

 

There's also some power names (which probably weren't meant to be taken seriously) in Mender Ramiel's incarnate introductory arc that we could use for slot/ability names - Divine Core Oscillation, Limitless Radial Freem, and Paradox Core Eternity.

_{(Where Divine, Limitless, and Paradox would be ability names while Oscillation, Freem, and Eternity would be slot/tier names.)}

 

As others said, we don't need the power creep. (But I hate leaving patterns unfinished so I do like the idea of completing the system anyway.)

 

An idea I think would be cool, personally, would be for the tier 3/4 Mind and Vitae slots not to have incarnate shifts but instead turn the Lore and Destiny incarnate shifts into regular level shifts, and Omega to apply an incarnate shift that becomes a normal level shift if you have all other slots at tier 3/4; that way a fully-incarnated (or nearly fully) character becomes a level 50+4, turning them into an Arch Villain / Hero-level combatant. A nice little ribbon to tie it all together that your character is now on-par with signature characters. That's just me, though, and way overpowered on top of everything else the system already does.

 

I've also spent way-too-much time thinking about what the missing slots can do. In the interest of not stealing the thread, I'll just link my ideas for Genesis and Vitae. (Please treat these as just throwing out ideas as fodder for the discussion rather than asserting them onto this suggestion.)

[Sakura Tenshi]

My own idea for Omega is kind of similar to the OP, though instead of just being an alpha copy, it basically allows you to strengthen/diversity any one of your previous incarnate slots. also I’d name each type of Omega slot after a mythological deity. (Yahweh for the alpha slot because alpha-omega, Rama for judgement due to the myth of nuclear arrows, Odin for Lore because your summoning essence of fallen warriors, etc)

[FupDup]

I think there's potential for filling niches within the existing slots as opposed to adding entirely new slots, the latter of which may require a rebalancing of high-level content including the Hardmode stuff that was built with the existing incarnate powers as the baseline. 

 

Alternatively, perhaps some of the "new" powers could take the place of one of the existing slots, like replacing your Destiny with a Genesis ground patch for example. That helps keep it more of a "horizontal" power expansion as opposed to being a purely "vertical" straight buff. 

[Infinitum]

What if one of the powers had an ability to freeze time - for your team so everyone could selectively target and get in position to annihilate whatever mob they face - or use that same ability to recover HP/End and allow powers a few extra seconds to recharge.  Kinda like the omega 13 device on Galaxy Quest only not going back 13 seconds just freezing. 

[ThatGuyCDude]

23 minutes ago, Rudra said:

No one said anything about turning existing incarnate powers off. The comments in this thread were for any new incarnate power slots to only be available in appropriate incarnate (and possibly Hard Mode) content.

Neither did I?  What I was saying is that new incarnate abilities are going to have click activation like the current ones, and having them turned off in everything but incarnate content seems weird to me.  I used Giant Monsters as a supporting argument because I've seen the difference Incarnates make in that kind of content and it's about the only open-world content that plays to the Incarnate power level: everything else is in instances and trials.

I think you're interpreting this suggestion as one massive power-dump, though, and that's not what I'm going for.  The original slots were introduced in waves with content to suit them, and this should be no different.  Ideas have to start somewhere, though.  Anyway, moving on.
 

 

14 minutes ago, megaericzero said:

An idea I think would be cool, personally, would be for the tier 3/4 Mind and Vitae slots not to have incarnate shifts but instead turn the Lore and Destiny incarnate shifts into regular level shifts, and Omega to apply an incarnate shift that becomes a normal level shift if you have all other slots at tier 3/4; that way a fully-incarnated (or nearly fully) character becomes a level 50+4, turning them into an Arch Villain / Hero-level combatant. A nice little ribbon to tie it all together that your character is now on-par with signature characters. That's just me, though, and way overpowered on top of everything else the system already does.

 

I've also spent way-too-much time thinking about what the missing slots can do. In the interest of not stealing the thread, I'll just link my ideas for Genesis and Vitae. (Please treat these as just throwing out ideas as fodder for the discussion rather than asserting them onto this suggestion.)

This is interesting and appropriate from a story standpoint.  Characters like Recluse are 'complete' Incarnates from their connection to the Well of Furies, so it makes sense that the player would stand on equal ground with them once their own process of incarnation is complete.  It is a problem with power creep, though, on multiple levels.  Not only is it difficult to make content when your strongest opponent is matched in power with a single player, but how do you make a legitimate plot threat to a character at that degree of strength?  There's no higher power source to reference, so you're left with snatching the existing power away... and at that point why make it in the first place?

I haven't been able to read your threads yet; I'll look into that next.  Thank you for the links.

 

 

15 minutes ago, biostem said:

We need to look at what we already have and see what's missing.  We have passive/procs (interface), we have something akin to a T9/nuke (judgement), we have pet summons (lore), we have some sort of click buff (destiny), we have a toggle buff (hybrid), then we have what amounts to a global enhancement (alpha).  What *don't* we have?  Maybe some sort of super-movement powers?  Maybe something akin to a Kheldian's Nova/Dwarf form that allows you to transform into something with powers you didn't have before.  What about powers that fundamentally change the world around you, (would be represented as a decently sized location-based power that altered some characteristics, like increased damage for allies while reducing that of enemies).  What if you could call forth your very shadow and have them fight alongside you, (sort of like the shadow dopplegangers from Positron 1).  Maybe one of the powers could summon a sort of "spirit animal" or familiar, which provides a passive buff as long as it survives, (it would be significantly tougher than the START buff pets but have no attacks of its own).

The Spirit Animal sounds like some of the Radial Lores, as does the Shadow clone.  Even if they play somewhat differently, to me they're filling the same head space, which I have trouble reconciling.  The gaps I noticed were single-target attack and single-target buff, so we're thinking in similar lanes.
Incarnate 'form' is also intriguing, but sounds like a lot of front-loaded work: instead of coming up with one power the Devs are forced to come up with a whole set.  Maybe if they were prefabricated builds for other archetypes that temporarily replace the player's current archetype?  For instance, like Invulnerability/Super Strength Tanker for 5 minutes on activation, reverting on 'death' or timeout back to the original build at full health/endurance?  I dunno about that, we should workshop the idea.

 

 

7 minutes ago, Sakura Tenshi said:

My own idea for Omega is kind of similar to the OP, though instead of just being an alpha copy, it basically allows you to strengthen/diversity any one of your previous incarnate slots.

I love this idea.  I was going for the Alpha-Omega reference and simplicity of programming, but being able to Omega Slot any single incarnation is a fantastic idea.

 

 

1 minute ago, FupDup said:

I think there's potential for filling niches within the existing slots as opposed to adding entirely new slots, the latter of which may require a rebalancing of high-level content including the Hardmode stuff that was built with the existing incarnate powers as the baseline. 

 

Alternatively, perhaps some of the "new" powers could take the place of one of the existing slots, like replacing your Destiny with a Genesis ground patch for example. That helps keep it more of a "horizontal" power expansion as opposed to being a purely "vertical" straight buff. 

I love this idea too.  You unlock the ability to slot the new incarnate into the existing slot, so you have to pick.  I, for one, look forward to dropping Lore into a fire and never looking back!

 

 

1 minute ago, Infinitum said:

What if one of the powers had an ability to freeze time - for your team so everyone could selectively target and get in position to annihilate whatever mob they face - or use that same ability to recover HP/End and allow powers a few extra seconds to recharge.  Kinda like the omega 13 device on Galaxy Quest only not going back 13 seconds just freezing. 

Hmm... the only way I can picture implementing something like that is a VERY wide range stun that can't be blocked.  It's an interesting concept, but how do you differentiate it for Core and Radial specializations?  It also makes developing content to challenge the Incarnate extra difficult, because they can always wait out the time stop and melt face.

 

 

I'm grateful for the varied discussion and suggestions in this thread.  Keep 'em coming!

[Rudra]

7 minutes ago, ThatGuyCDude said:

1 hour ago, Rudra said:

No one said anything about turning existing incarnate powers off. The comments in this thread were for any new incarnate power slots to only be available in appropriate incarnate (and possibly Hard Mode) content.

Neither did I?  What I was saying is that new incarnate abilities are going to have click activation like the current ones, and having them turned off in everything but incarnate content seems weird to me.  I used Giant Monsters as a supporting argument because I've seen the difference Incarnates make in that kind of content and it's about the only open-world content that plays to the Incarnate power level: everything else is in instances and trials.

And the GMs just underwent a buff because of all the power creep from things like incarnate powers. So making those buffs irrelevant defeats the purpose. Especially since the current incarnate powers are being used to steamroll  regular missions. So any new incarnate tiers should be limited to just incarnate content.

 

7 minutes ago, ThatGuyCDude said:

Characters like Recluse are 'complete' Incarnates from their connection to the Well of Furies, so it makes sense that the player would stand on equal ground with them once their own process of incarnation is complete.

Player characters already do? Even without incarnate powers. (Edit: The only thing that makes Recluse difficult for me or anyone I know is that massive END drain attack of his, and some power sets nullify it.)

Edited March 19 by Rudra

[megaericzero]

15 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

Kinda like the omega 13 device on Galaxy Quest only not going back 13 seconds just freezing. 

Heart react for the reference alone. ❤️

 

4 minutes ago, ThatGuyCDude said:

how do you make a legitimate plot threat to a character at that degree of strength?  There's no higher power source to reference, so you're left with snatching the existing power away... and at that point why make it in the first place?

Good point. I think some of the characters in the DA arcs actively shift to higher levels mid-combat (and can con above 54), so there's that possibilitiy. Definitely wouldn't want to put characters in a place where we have to come up with excuse after excuse on why they're depowered; I hate when media does that.

[ThatGuyCDude]

6 hours ago, Rudra said:

Player characters already do? Even without incarnate powers.

I was agreeing with megaericzero that 50 + 4 is the same entity level as story-declared Incarnate NPCs.

 

6 hours ago, megaericzero said:

Good point. I think some of the characters in the DA arcs actively shift to higher levels mid-combat (and can con above 54), so there's that possibilitiy. Definitely wouldn't want to put characters in a place where we have to come up with excuse after excuse on why they're depowered; I hate when media does that.

I read your Genesis and Vitae pages and WOW, you have put *way* more thought into this than I have.  It's interesting, though, because what you describe as the Vitae slot is what I was picturing for Omega, or rather Omega without the programming and balance shortcut I pitched.  Those are some great ideas and if the Devs go down this route I hope they give them serious consideration.
I think FupDup's suggestion of sidegrades for variety is the strongest defense against powercreep for the system, though; using badges to unlock swapping in alternate Incarnate powers in the four middle slots finishes the 'system' without increasing the actual power of the players; instead it lets them swap-build for different content and party compositions.  That might lead to lots of teams saying things like "Switch to Genesis for this pull", but I don't think that's a problem.
The only slot that becomes troubling then is the Hybrid slot; it's already set aside as a 'Psychic' slot but there's no paired 'Physical' slot.  So do we add a physical slot so that there's three swap points for each type of Incarnate power?  Or do we set Hybrid aside because it's passive and restrict its swap to strictly Omega?  Things to think about.
EDIT 3/20/24: Actually, maybe the player should have to choose between Hybrid and Genesis?  Getting the first Advanced Physical Incarnate badge would add Genesis recipes to the interface, but they would have to be placed in the Hybrid/Genesis slot.  Technically the player should get the slot on the first one they unlock and the recipes on the second one, but considering Hybrid is already implemented and new players would unlock both simultaneously, such a technicality is irrelevant.

Edited March 20 by ThatGuyCDude
Hybrid and Genesis mutually exclusive

[BurtHutt]

I feel the incarnate system has somewhat ruined the game. SO much of the challenge is gone in the end game. I really don't want to see anything else added to make us more uber. 

 

If there is a need to add more then do something like reskin the lore pets so they can thematically go with your toon - maybe where you actually design the look of the pet and then you pick from a list for the powers you want to give it. This would make it on par with the current Lore slots.

 

Any additionally stuff should be mostly cosmetic. Please don't add more so our toons can become even more super.

[JayboH]

2 hours ago, BurtHutt said:

I feel the incarnate system has somewhat ruined the game. SO much of the challenge is gone in the end game.

 

The end game challenge is the incarnate stuff.  Problem is that I don't see a ton of people actually running incarnate stuff.  They use their incarnate powers on regular content far more.  Once in awhile I see LFG planning an Underground Trial but I haven't for example seen a TPN trial advertised and I remember loving that one once people learned the pattern.

[ThatGuyCDude]

Okay, so based on the feedback in this thread, and in keeping with the consensus that the player is powerful enough and there should be as little increase in power as possible, let's revise the original idea to allow the completion of the incarnate system without necessitating a rebalance of the game.  We'll be using megaericzero's exceptionally thought out expression of the Genesis slot along with FupDup's notion of slot sharing for side-grades, Sakura Tenshi's idea of "Omega'ing" an existing slot, and Biostem's idea to draw from the Kheldian shapeshifting.  I'll add a link to this post in the original post when I'm done so that people coming into the thread can find it quickly.
 

SUMMARY: Instead of new slots, the remaining four Incarnate 'levels' would unlock recipes for new enhancements that can be placed in existing slots.  The current proposal is for a new AoE buff/debuff enhancement that would compete with Hybrid (flexible on this point) as well as some Shapeshifting abilities (well, costume-swapping abilities) that would compete with Judgment/Lore and Interface/Destiny for those slots. The only non-lateral change in power would relate to Omega-recipes which combine both aspects of ONE Incarnate's Very Rare enhancements, with the limitation that only one Omega-type enhancement can be equipped on the character (regardless of which slot it happens to be)

Let's get started.

 

For the remaining four Incarnate slots--Genesis, Mind, Vitae, and Omega--rather than unlocking a new equipment slot in the interface, the player would unlock recipes for new Incarnate 'enhancements' that fill these roles instead.  These enhancements would have to share slots with the existing powers, so the amount of Incarnate power would remain roughly identical to its current in-game expression.  What is to be gained here, rather, is versatility of build.

 

Genesis would remain a target AoE radius that boosts allies and nerfs enemies.  When the player acquires enough Advanced Physical Incarnate experience after unlocking their Destiny slot, Genesis recipes would be added to the interface (just like mastering an IO recipe adds it to that interface).  These enhancements can only be equipped in the Hybrid slot, meaning the player must choose between the passive boosts or the activated crowd buff/debuff.  Once unlocked, the name of the Hybrid slot would change to Hybrid/Genesis to indicate this possibility to the player.

Technically getting the Genesis badge should unlock the slot whether or not you already have Hybrid unlocked, but considering old players already have the slot and new players will be unlocking both simultaneously, this technicality is irrelevant.

 

Mind and Vitae would draw from the Kheldian veteran archetype shapeshifting mechanic.
The Mind Incarnate ability would transform the player into one of a few preset archetype builds from the Support/Control/Pets sets, based on which one they've chosen to craft (pairings like fire/fire, no weapon sets for animation issues).  While in this form, the player has access to 5, 6, 7, or 8 abilities based on the rarity, with Core emphasizing the primary pool and Radial the secondary.  The form lasts until cancelled and temporarily grants the player the corresponding archetype effect (so a defender pairing gets the endurance discounts).  Unlike Kheldians, the associated powers would not appear in the enhancement window and would not be slotable.

The appearance of this form would be dictated by an unlocked "Mind" costume slot that could be altered at the tailor.

The Mind incarnate ability could be slotted into either the Judgment OR the Lore slot, but would be unique (meaning you can't equip one in both slots).  It would unlock with a badge once sufficient Advanced Psychic experience is accumulated, AFTER the Hybrid slot has been unlocked.  Once unlocked, the slots it shares would have their names changed with a slash addendum to indicate Mind is eligible there.

Like Mind, the Vitae incarnate ability would also transform the player with similar mechanics, although the Vitae archetypes would draw from the Ranged/Melee/Tank sets.  Again, it would unlock a "Vitae" costume slot that is used while the power is active and which could be altered at the tailor.

The Vitae incarnate ability could be slotted into either the Interface OR the Destiny slot, but would be unique (meaning you can't equip it in both slots).  It and its recipes would unlock with a badge once sufficient Advanced Physical experience is accumulated, AFTER the Genesis slot has been unlocked.  Once unlocked, the slots it shares would have their names changed with a slash addendum to indicate Vitae is eligible there.

 

Lastly, the Omega 'slot' wouldn't be a slot at all.  Rather, it would be a set of recipes that unlock once all other Incarnate slots have been unlocked (and a sufficiently enormous amount of incarnate experience had been accumulated).  The Omega 'recipes' combine both Very Rare Incarnate enhancements of a single slot into one that has all the benefits of both.  Only one Omega enhancement can be slotted!  So, if you Omega your Alpha enhancement and then Omega your Lore enhancement, only one of them can be used at a time!  A pop-up warning would alert the player of this when they try to craft an Omega enhancement, so that they don't accidentally erase their other abilities with a creation that can't be used.

Edited March 21 by ThatGuyCDude
Added summary for clarity.

[Zect]

I personally love the idea of new incarnate abilities. They just have to be added in a way that promotes trade-offs and decision-making, for example by making the new abilities exclusive with current ones.
 

Say, you can own both Genesis and Interface, but toggling on the former suppresses the latter. Or, you can own both Vitae and Destiny, but casting the former deletes the Destiny buff. 

[Player2]

7 hours ago, ThatGuyCDude said:

Mind and Vitae would draw from the Kheldian veteran archetype shapeshifting mechanic.
The Mind Incarnate ability would transform the player into one of a few preset archetype builds from the Support/Control/Pets sets, based on which one they've chosen to craft (pairings like fire/fire, no weapon sets for animation issues).  While in this form, the player has access to 5, 6, 7, or 8 abilities based on the rarity, with Core emphasizing the primary pool and Radial the secondary.  The form lasts until cancelled and temporarily grants the player the corresponding archetype effect (so a defender pairing gets the endurance discounts).  Unlike Kheldians, the associated powers would not appear in the enhancement window and would not be slotable.

The appearance of this form would be dictated by an unlocked "Mind" costume slot that could be altered at the tailor.

 

I'm against a slot devoted to shapeshifting.  If it had selectable powers in it that could that could add that functionality, okay... but there should be non-shapeshifting options.  Thumbs down to shapeshifting only. 

[Sunsette]

Sorry, but I would be much more interested in additional thematic-focused options in Judgement and Lore slots than literally anything else that could possibly be done with the incarnate system at this point. I like the existing incarnates for the most part but they already struggle to fit in with many character concepts, and it's extremely difficult to devise further extensions to the system that won't make it worse.

 

I also disagree with the idea that Judgement is a 'melee' slot -- judgement is a mass damage with side effects slot, and most of the options are overwhelmingly ranged.

 

Also cannot emphasize how much I would not want shapeshifting powers thrust on my characters. 

Edited March 20 by Sunsette

[golstat2003]

13 hours ago, BurtHutt said:

I feel the incarnate system has somewhat ruined the game. SO much of the challenge is gone in the end game. I really don't want to see anything else added to make us more uber. 

 

If there is a need to add more then do something like reskin the lore pets so they can thematically go with your toon - maybe where you actually design the look of the pet and then you pick from a list for the powers you want to give it. This would make it on par with the current Lore slots.

 

Any additionally stuff should be mostly cosmetic. Please don't add more so our toons can become even more super.

 

As others have said if they add more slots they should be limited to just incarnate content. More of them trivializing the game are NOT needed at all. EDIT: Just as I'm against nerfing the existing ones, I'm against adding more UNLESS they are limited to existing incarnate content.

Edited March 20 by golstat2003

[Chris24601]

I question whether adding more than the existing six existing slots is even needed.

 

The only reason incarnates and the concept of 10 slots was added in the first place was to create an endgame grind for monetizing.

 

The devs even admitted in one of their AMAs that once we got to Omega, they’d introduce something else to keep the grind going.

 

With that in mind; the spirit of CoH has always been different than other MMOs. “Endgame is rolling new toons” has been a truism for as long as I can remember.

 

 I don’t think it’s reasonable to take away what has already been given, but at the same time I don’t think continuing the endless climb based on the old model of monetization makes sense for the nonprofit structure of Homecoming.

 

My proposal is to declare the Incarnate tree complete and focus on ways to provide new options for the existing slots.

 

Perhaps even new ways for the slots to be used… say a version of Judgment that instead of a nuke was a short period in you gained a set of high damage AoE attacks (i.e. instead of one huge nuke chain lightning, you get 30 seconds of being able to launch smaller less damaging chains with a 3s timer… basically akin to the water blast power that can be used twice in a row before going on cooldown).

 

Maybe a Variant Lore could be a single  pet that doesn’t despawn after a few minutes (basically akin to a single MM pet of a strength based on the tier) so you could have a “permanent” (well, as permanent as a MM pet can be) sidekick if that’s how you slotted your Lore.

 

I think lateral options like that would be a much better expansion for Incarnate power in the present environment; if you even need to do anything with it at all.

 

 

[megaericzero]

Random thought for the suggestion that further incarnate powers should have to pick between existing slots:

Perhaps a rework where you can only have six active at a time (the current number of slots available) but freeform where each slot can have any power (just not duplicates of the same category)?

 

This way if a mastermind wants to play to the strength of their archetype, they can forfeit Judgment to get Genesis instead of giving up Hybrid; or if a Blaster wants to double-down on glass cannon, they can neglect Destiny to take Omega.

 

To rework the level shift so people aren't missing out on any: remove them from the existing slots (Alpha, Destiny, Lore) and instead have it so the first of any t3/t4 incarnate slotted anywhere gives Alpha's level shift while the second and third t3/4 of any incarnates give the other two incarnate shifts.

 

EDIT: For simplicity's sake, perhaps the UI still shows the full tree but you no longer unlock the slots themselves and instead have an "incarnate level" that starts at 0 when you ding 50 and increases up to 6 (cap) as you increase your incarnate level? The UI then just tracks how many abilities you have slotted - regardless of which slots those are - against the counter and greys out the remaining slots when you reach your current cap. So when a new up-and-coming incarnate has room for only one ability to start, they can decide to slot whatever they want - Vitae, Omega, Hybrid - as long as they have the materials to craft it.

Edited March 20 by megaericzero