Wait... no Super Strength for Scrappers?

[MunkiLord]

You get it

[Erratic1]

Should the melee classes all get the same powersets?--Nothing a priori favors answering that question yes or no.

Yes because history has shown the Live developers were in the process of porting all applicable powersets to other ATs until they ran into an issue and was usually fixed and then ported.

 

You do realize what "a priori" means?

 

[Murcielago]

In general giving players more options is a good thing. In the context of this game the argument for it is many people will enjoy playing a Super Strength Scrapper. There has been no solid argument as to why limiting player choice in such a manner is a good thing or beneficial to the game. Some people don't want every set on every AT, cool, they can ignore the sets that don't fit into their concepts and themes. It would be a win-win.

 

Your opening sentence uses the phrase, "In general", so it is implicit that giving players more choice is not always a good thing. As for there being no "good" argument, you should perhaps differentiate between "good" and "what I like". In particular the value of there being separate ATs (and this has been indirectly stated previously in the thread) diminishes when you have multiple which overlap significantly in capabilities, particularly in the case of melee ATs (four of them) where the end goal for a significant portion of players is the solo, melee god.

 

But how exactly is that a bad thing for players that want that? And how is it bad for the players that don't since they can just ignore the options they don't like?

 

Genericizing ATs too much removes any reason to play other ATs, leading to burnout happening sooner and giving no incentive to play other ATs which a player may find they enjoy. I have come to play and enjoy ATs I otherwise would not have because of powerset restrictions and the desire to play the powerset I could not get elsewhere. And as a result the character building opportunities have mushroomed far beyond what I would have had staying with the ATs I knew I enjoyed.

 

 

I actually don't care either way about Super Strength and have little to no desire to play the set at all. That's not what I'm arguing for. I don't understand why the fact that some people don't want to play an SS Scrapper means they are for not letting other people play it either. Why can't those of you that don't want to play Super Strength just ignore such an option and be fine with people that do want it, to use it?

 

I am not sure how you conclude I do not want to play a SS scrapper. More accurately I do not see a horrible loss in there not being a SS option for scrappers. Want to deal out big damage with SS? Well, Brute exists and has SS as an option. What are you losing with Brute as opposed to Scrapper? Critical hits and lower resistance caps? How horrible!

Except brutes play nothing like scrapper and if you feel that ATs are getting watered down then that's like your opinion man but that shouldn't stop SS from being ported so everyone can enjoy it. Your feelings aren't a valid reason for porting everything to every applicable AT. There are more people wanting it than not wanting it and by that measure you lose.

 

[Erratic1]

Compared to a Blaster (Controller, Defender, Dominator, Mastermind, Corruptor...well, nearly every other AT in the game) a Brute plays very much like a Scrapper (lower damage, better defenses, but there is that whole run up and hit things in melee bit they both share).

 

Is this where I should insert the stupid picture like I'm scoring points? (Refuse to call it a meme just like I refuse to refer to "rolling a character" when nothing is rolling and the results aren't random...kids these days.)

 

Edit: In fact, if the two ATs were so utterly different there would not he regular posts asking, "Should I [shudder] roll X/Y as a Brute or Scrapper."

[Murcielago]

Hey remember when devs said Blasters would never get trick arrow and then they did? Remember when villians got empathy in the name of pain dominance? Remember when Psi and Mental were given to blasters even though everyone and their mother said it would be game breakingly OP? Also remember when Brutes got SR despite being Brutes?

 

Defenders and blasters are the same, they shoot things from a distance.

 

Controllers and masterminds are the same, they have pets.

 

Tankers and brutes are the same thing, they taunt things.

 

See I can generalize things as well.

 

Yeah there is no argument for not porting SS to scrappers, conceptually, thematically, or otherwise.

[Murcielago]

Also to your edit there are plenty of people asking about rolling Blasters or Sentinels/Corruptors or Defenders/Tankers or Brutes.

 

Just drop it already, you don't have an argument to stand on lol. Scrappers should get SS and EM and every other melee power sets.

[Erratic1]

Hey remember when devs said Blasters would never get trick arrow and then they did? Remember when villians got empathy in the name of pain dominance? Remember when Psi and Mental were given to blasters even though everyone and their mother said it would be game breakingly OP? Also remember when Brutes got SR despite being Brutes?

 

Defenders and blasters are the same, they shoot things from a distance.

 

Controllers and masterminds are the same, they have pets.

 

Tankers and brutes are the same thing, they taunt things.

 

See I can generalize things as well.

 

Yeah there is no argument for not porting SS to scrappers, conceptually, thematically, or otherwise.

 

Yeah, a wealth of posts out there asking if one should Dark Blast as a Blaster or Defender, or pet class as a controller or mastermind... :o

 

I will not lose sleep if Super Strength gets ported, but your sides statements about logic are rather ungrounded and ignore there are indeed arguments against doing so.

[Erratic1]

Also to your edit there are plenty of people asking about rolling Blasters or Sentinels/Corruptors or Defenders/Tankers or Brutes.

 

Just drop it already, you don't have an argument to stand on lol. Scrappers should get SS and EM and every other melee power sets.

 

Someone may need to explain to you what argument by assertion is and why it is not considered valid.

 

Edit:

 

Let's try it this way....

 

There is absolutely no reason whatsoever why Blasters shouldn't have controllable pets. NO REASON!!!

 

lol if you think otherwise. !!BOO YAH!!

 

*shrug* If you think that is well-grounded argumentation, I cannot help you. Either way, I have said my piece here and am content to let it stand as it is.

[Heraclea]

Speaking as a former Super Strength tanker, you don't want it now.  I25 changes to Rage make the set a liability. 

 

Take Street Fighting and add Air Superiority and there you go. 

[jack_nomind]

My issue is that Spidey doesn't do ANY of the things that SS does.

 

Pfft.  4/9 powers are "punch hard."  What we really need for a Spidey-set is a version of SS that substitutes the Propel pool and Whip animations for Hurl (webbing throw), replaces Foot Stomp with the Mighty Judgment animation, and replaces Hand Clap and Rage with... more Taunts, I guess?  "Banter" and "Psych Up"?

 

Bam.  CoH SS Spidey.

[Murcielago]

Also to your edit there are plenty of people asking about rolling Blasters or Sentinels/Corruptors or Defenders/Tankers or Brutes.

 

Just drop it already, you don't have an argument to stand on lol. Scrappers should get SS and EM and every other melee power sets.

 

Someone may need to explain to you what argument by assertion is and why it is not considered valid.

 

Edit:

 

Let's try it this way....

 

There is absolutely no reason whatsoever why Blasters shouldn't have controllable pets. NO REASON!!!

 

lol if you think otherwise. !!BOO YAH!!

 

*shrug* If you think that is well-grounded argumentation, I cannot help you. Either way, I have said my piece here and am content to let it stand as it is.

You just said everyone is asking about should I roll them as a Brute or a Scrapper and I said people are doing the same thing for other ATs and now you're saying that isn't a valid argument? Which is it?

[SlimPickens]

Speaking as a former Super Strength tanker, you don't want it now.  I25 changes to Rage make the set a liability. 

 

Take Street Fighting and add Air Superiority and there you go.

 

QFT

 

Super strength now is somewhat less than super. Rage crash now having 3 negative effects and really punishing you for stacking it makes the juice not worth the squeeze when you can just take a build up set and have a huge damage spike every 30 secs with the gaussians proc slotted. Not to mention smashing is heavily resisted, so im not sure losing all damage for 10secs plus end dump which can detoggle and get you killed, plus -def which wrecks most peoples main form of damage avoidance makes up for a small buff you can get anyways thorugh red insp and a HUGE damage cap on brutes through fury alone.

 

I find SS not only much less fun to play trying to manage rage dumps, but also very lackluster overall compared to its former incarnation.

[Sir Myshkin]

Can we talk about the Elephant in the room here?

 

Stone Melee.

 

Sighs and walks out, mumbling something about 'no love for stoners.'

[MunkiLord]

Can we talk about the Elephant in the room here?

 

Stone Melee.

 

I would love Stone Melee!

 

Sighs and walks out, mumbling something about 'no love for stoners.'

 

I'm hoping to drive to Colorado in September if that counts.

[Adeon Hawkwood]

If SS is ‘too good’ on a scrapper (it isn't), then its too good elsewhere (it isnt).

That's not really a valid comparison. The problem with Super Strength on Scrappers is really related to Rage. The set as a whole is balanced around the idea that you have an 80% damage buff up pretty much all of the time. The problem is that an 80% damage buff is a lot more powerful on a Scrapper than it is on a Brute or a Tanker since Scrappers have much higher damage modifiers. Functionally speaking an 80% damage buff for a Scrapper is more like a 120% damage buff for a Tanker or Brute.

 

So at an absolute minimum if you ported Super Strength to Scrappers Rage would need to be nerfed to about 50% damage boost to keep the damage output in line with Brutes. Even then you might find it a bit to powerful due to Critical Strikes.

[HelenCarnate]

If SS is ‘too good’ on a scrapper (it isn't), then its too good elsewhere (it isnt).

That's not really a valid comparison. The problem with Super Strength on Scrappers is really related to Rage. The set as a whole is balanced around the idea that you have an 80% damage buff up pretty much all of the time. The problem is that an 80% damage buff is a lot more powerful on a Scrapper than it is on a Brute or a Tanker since Scrappers have much higher damage modifiers. Functionally speaking an 80% damage buff for a Scrapper is more like a 120% damage buff for a Tanker or Brute.

 

So at an absolute minimum if you ported Super Strength to Scrappers Rage would need to be nerfed to about 50% damage boost to keep the damage output in line with Brutes. Even then you might find it a bit to powerful due to Critical Strikes.

 

Would have to be just a hair higher to be equal to Brutes.  Normally at 50% fury Brutes and Scrappers will do equal damage outside of crits.

 

Scrapper Attack: 150, slotted w/ 100% damage 300.  Add 50% rage 375.  Double rage 450

Brute Attack: 100, slotted w/ 100% damage 200.  At 50% fury 300.  Add 80% rage 380.  Double rage 460

 

50% would put them below this threshold but 53% would put them equal.  Another thing to consider when comparing the 2 ATs is that Scrappers for most sets have a higher damage buff with Build Up and similar powers vs Brutes.  So during that 10 seconds with 100% slotting for damage, instead of 300 they would do 450 but a brute instead of 300 would only do 380.  So for all other sets, the scrapper does slightly more damage over time.  At base recharge this means around 55% on Rage would make the difference between a SS Scrapper and SS Brute about the same as any other set. 

 

Then that brings us to another issue.  When you compare 2 identical sets and have the brute at 50% fury and exclude crits, the Scrapper version and the Brute version are exactly the same.

Over time including crits, they are the same at 65% fury.  Where things change is with Build Up combined with recharge.  The more often build up is used, the farther the scrapper pulls ahead with the exact same attack chain.  If you have Rage nerfed to 55% then a high recharge SS scrapper would be roughly the same as a high recharge SS brute where every other set, the scrapper pulls further ahead with more recharge. 

 

So if they were to port SS to scrappers they have several things to consider.  If they nerf the Rage percentage too low then SS will suck on Scrappers and all the work that was done will be futile as almost no one would play the set.  If they leave it too high, then it becomes super popular and everyone is running around with SS/Bio Scrappers stomping everything to death and popping Parasitic Aura right before rage crashes.  (Don't pretend this isn't why we want SS on Scrappers)  Finding a fair middle ground would take a lot of work and I would not expect that of people who are bringing the game to us without getting paid for it.  So even though I would love to see it, I don't expect that port any time soon.

 

 

 

[Gobbledygook]

Anybody think that's what they're doing with rage now?

Tearing it down and rebuilding from the ground up?

That's what we did in the Army. From basic training to S.O.P.'s(standard operating procedures).

Maybe they're working on fixes before the port?

[Adeon Hawkwood]

50% would put them below this threshold but 53% would put them equal.

Yeah, I rounded down because I like round numbers.

[justicebeliever]

I don't understand why some people prefer to limit other player's choices.

 

Because that's what the original devs at Paragon Studios decided ... and we still honor their design decisions, even though they're no longer "in charge" of the game ...?

 

This is something I keep hearing more and more, and it seems wrong on the face of it...

 

If we truly don't want to change the Dev's vision, we should be playing on a i24 server - that's exactly how they left it...So if you truly want the game as they intended, why come here?  My guess is we like that the game provides more choices (capes/auras unlocked at character creation, TF min size is almost always 1,  XP Boosters for those who want to level quicker, etc, etc.)  And on top of that, we know that SCoRE/Homecoming is planning more changes.  And they want to hear our suggestions (hence the suggestions and feedback board). 

 

The original dev's backtracked and changed their minds on things...They were always making changes as well...it's not like i24 was the final product...And there dev team was evolving as well, as people left and new people/ideas were being brought in...

 

I'm all for changes, especially where they are providing players more choices...

[ryuplaneswalker]

If SS is ‘too good’ on a scrapper (it isn't), then its too good elsewhere (it isnt).

That's not really a valid comparison. The problem with Super Strength on Scrappers is really related to Rage. The set as a whole is balanced around the idea that you have an 80% damage buff up pretty much all of the time. The problem is that an 80% damage buff is a lot more powerful on a Scrapper than it is on a Brute or a Tanker since Scrappers have much higher damage modifiers. Functionally speaking an 80% damage buff for a Scrapper is more like a 120% damage buff for a Tanker or Brute.

 

So at an absolute minimum if you ported Super Strength to Scrappers Rage would need to be nerfed to about 50% damage boost to keep the damage output in line with Brutes. Even then you might find it a bit to powerful due to Critical Strikes.

 

Would have to be just a hair higher to be equal to Brutes.  Normally at 50% fury Brutes and Scrappers will do equal damage outside of crits.

 

Scrapper Attack: 150, slotted w/ 100% damage 300.  Add 50% rage 375.  Double rage 450

Brute Attack: 100, slotted w/ 100% damage 200.  At 50% fury 300.  Add 80% rage 380.  Double rage 460

 

50% would put them below this threshold but 53% would put them equal.  Another thing to consider when comparing the 2 ATs is that Scrappers for most sets have a higher damage buff with Build Up and similar powers vs Brutes.  So during that 10 seconds with 100% slotting for damage, instead of 300 they would do 450 but a brute instead of 300 would only do 380.  So for all other sets, the scrapper does slightly more damage over time.  At base recharge this means around 55% on Rage would make the difference between a SS Scrapper and SS Brute about the same as any other set. 

 

Then that brings us to another issue.  When you compare 2 identical sets and have the brute at 50% fury and exclude crits, the Scrapper version and the Brute version are exactly the same.

Over time including crits, they are the same at 65% fury.  Where things change is with Build Up combined with recharge.  The more often build up is used, the farther the scrapper pulls ahead with the exact same attack chain.  If you have Rage nerfed to 55% then a high recharge SS scrapper would be roughly the same as a high recharge SS brute where every other set, the scrapper pulls further ahead with more recharge. 

 

So if they were to port SS to scrappers they have several things to consider.  If they nerf the Rage percentage too low then SS will suck on Scrappers and all the work that was done will be futile as almost no one would play the set.  If they leave it too high, then it becomes super popular and everyone is running around with SS/Bio Scrappers stomping everything to death and popping Parasitic Aura right before rage crashes.  (Don't pretend this isn't why we want SS on Scrappers)  Finding a fair middle ground would take a lot of work and I would not expect that of people who are bringing the game to us without getting paid for it.  So even though I would love to see it, I don't expect that port any time soon.

 

This is all made worse by ATOs, Scrapper ATO's take scrappers from "Better than a Brute at Low Fury, not as good at high fury" to "Just plain better than a Brute."

[marcussmythe]

If SS is ‘too good’ on a scrapper (it isn't), then its too good elsewhere (it isnt).

That's not really a valid comparison. The problem with Super Strength on Scrappers is really related to Rage. The set as a whole is balanced around the idea that you have an 80% damage buff up pretty much all of the time. The problem is that an 80% damage buff is a lot more powerful on a Scrapper than it is on a Brute or a Tanker since Scrappers have much higher damage modifiers. Functionally speaking an 80% damage buff for a Scrapper is more like a 120% damage buff for a Tanker or Brute.

 

So at an absolute minimum if you ported Super Strength to Scrappers Rage would need to be nerfed to about 50% damage boost to keep the damage output in line with Brutes. Even then you might find it a bit to powerful due to Critical Strikes.

 

Would have to be just a hair higher to be equal to Brutes.  Normally at 50% fury Brutes and Scrappers will do equal damage outside of crits.

 

Scrapper Attack: 150, slotted w/ 100% damage 300.  Add 50% rage 375.  Double rage 450

Brute Attack: 100, slotted w/ 100% damage 200.  At 50% fury 300.  Add 80% rage 380.  Double rage 460

 

50% would put them below this threshold but 53% would put them equal.  Another thing to consider when comparing the 2 ATs is that Scrappers for most sets have a higher damage buff with Build Up and similar powers vs Brutes.  So during that 10 seconds with 100% slotting for damage, instead of 300 they would do 450 but a brute instead of 300 would only do 380.  So for all other sets, the scrapper does slightly more damage over time.  At base recharge this means around 55% on Rage would make the difference between a SS Scrapper and SS Brute about the same as any other set. 

 

Then that brings us to another issue.  When you compare 2 identical sets and have the brute at 50% fury and exclude crits, the Scrapper version and the Brute version are exactly the same.

Over time including crits, they are the same at 65% fury.  Where things change is with Build Up combined with recharge.  The more often build up is used, the farther the scrapper pulls ahead with the exact same attack chain.  If you have Rage nerfed to 55% then a high recharge SS scrapper would be roughly the same as a high recharge SS brute where every other set, the scrapper pulls further ahead with more recharge. 

 

So if they were to port SS to scrappers they have several things to consider.  If they nerf the Rage percentage too low then SS will suck on Scrappers and all the work that was done will be futile as almost no one would play the set.  If they leave it too high, then it becomes super popular and everyone is running around with SS/Bio Scrappers stomping everything to death and popping Parasitic Aura right before rage crashes.  (Don't pretend this isn't why we want SS on Scrappers)  Finding a fair middle ground would take a lot of work and I would not expect that of people who are bringing the game to us without getting paid for it.  So even though I would love to see it, I don't expect that port any time soon.

 

This is all made worse by ATOs, Scrapper ATO's take scrappers from "Better than a Brute at Low Fury, not as good at high fury" to "Just plain better than a Brute."

 

Well, given the res and hp discrepancy, id argue thats probably a good thing?

 

Given how hot Stalkers are at Scrappers heels... though for me Ive mentally just merged the ATs.  Ive got ‘single target melee with stealth’ and Ive got ‘AOE melee’ and its mostly about which version of the powerset I like and how badly I wanna see the costume.

[Chance Jackson]

If SS is ‘too good’ on a scrapper (it isn't), then its too good elsewhere (it isnt).

That's not really a valid comparison. The problem with Super Strength on Scrappers is really related to Rage. The set as a whole is balanced around the idea that you have an 80% damage buff up pretty much all of the time. The problem is that an 80% damage buff is a lot more powerful on a Scrapper than it is on a Brute or a Tanker since Scrappers have much higher damage modifiers. Functionally speaking an 80% damage buff for a Scrapper is more like a 120% damage buff for a Tanker or Brute.

 

So at an absolute minimum if you ported Super Strength to Scrappers Rage would need to be nerfed to about 50% damage boost to keep the damage output in line with Brutes. Even then you might find it a bit to powerful due to Critical Strikes.

 

Would have to be just a hair higher to be equal to Brutes.  Normally at 50% fury Brutes and Scrappers will do equal damage outside of crits.

 

Scrapper Attack: 150, slotted w/ 100% damage 300.  Add 50% rage 375.  Double rage 450

Brute Attack: 100, slotted w/ 100% damage 200.  At 50% fury 300.  Add 80% rage 380.  Double rage 460

 

50% would put them below this threshold but 53% would put them equal.  Another thing to consider when comparing the 2 ATs is that Scrappers for most sets have a higher damage buff with Build Up and similar powers vs Brutes.  So during that 10 seconds with 100% slotting for damage, instead of 300 they would do 450 but a brute instead of 300 would only do 380.  So for all other sets, the scrapper does slightly more damage over time.  At base recharge this means around 55% on Rage would make the difference between a SS Scrapper and SS Brute about the same as any other set. 

 

Then that brings us to another issue.  When you compare 2 identical sets and have the brute at 50% fury and exclude crits, the Scrapper version and the Brute version are exactly the same.

Over time including crits, they are the same at 65% fury.  Where things change is with Build Up combined with recharge.  The more often build up is used, the farther the scrapper pulls ahead with the exact same attack chain.  If you have Rage nerfed to 55% then a high recharge SS scrapper would be roughly the same as a high recharge SS brute where every other set, the scrapper pulls further ahead with more recharge. 

 

So if they were to port SS to scrappers they have several things to consider.  If they nerf the Rage percentage too low then SS will suck on Scrappers and all the work that was done will be futile as almost no one would play the set.  If they leave it too high, then it becomes super popular and everyone is running around with SS/Bio Scrappers stomping everything to death and popping Parasitic Aura right before rage crashes.  (Don't pretend this isn't why we want SS on Scrappers)  Finding a fair middle ground would take a lot of work and I would not expect that of people who are bringing the game to us without getting paid for it.  So even though I would love to see it, I don't expect that port any time soon.

 

This is all made worse by ATOs, Scrapper ATO's take scrappers from "Better than a Brute at Low Fury, not as good at high fury" to "Just plain better than a Brute."

given the lower caps & the inability to plan around crits shouldn't scrappers overall be better dmg dealers than brutes when crits are factored in? SS should be better for scrappers than Brutes & tanks.

[HelenCarnate]

Yes it should be better but only at certain points (excluding external damage buffs) and that is the hard part when porting to Scrappers. Energy Melee and Stone would be easy as they would be direct ports with Scrapper damage modifiers for the base damage. But the same thing done with SS woud make Rage a constant 100% damage boost. Even at 80% the Scrapper would out perform the Brute at fury levels that would make them equal in every other set.  The hard part is figuring out the percentage that puts them on the same level as say a WM Scrapper vs WM Brute. I would say 62.5% as that is the same boost as other Build Up types in Radiation Melee and another set I can't remember off the top of my head.

[Hopeling]

given the lower caps & the inability to plan around crits shouldn't scrappers overall be better dmg dealers than brutes when crits are factored in? SS should be better for scrappers than Brutes & tanks.

SS should indeed do more damage for scrappers than it does for brutes, for the same reason every other set should. The issue is that in a straight port, it not only would do more damage than an SS brute, it would do more damage than most or all other scrapper sets, because of the differences in damage buff scaling.

 

You know, it shouldn't be too hard to mock up a DPS spreadsheet entry for scrapper SS, right? Then at least we'd have some concrete numbers to work with.

[Murcielago]

So I just found out that Stalkers get Shield Defense. All arguments are now null and void. Port all melee pri/sec to each AT.