Pylon Damage Thread

[Bill Z Bubba]

3 hours ago, Bionic_Flea said:

Why purge if you have almost unlimited character space?

1: It takes very little time and gets my farmer more vet lvls to PL an alt to 50.

2: If I'm not going to play a character I see no reason for their continued existence.

3: It's an easy way to refill base bins with good stuff.

4: I'm not a fan of clutter.

 

I'm down to 52 characters but I plan to get that back below 50 soon. Too many tanks and brutes in my collection. 10 and 7 currently.

Edited February 7, 2021 by Bill Z Bubba

[Sovera]

I've been testing a few things and since the Tanker forums are a bit stagnant I'll post my findings here along with a request.

 

I was testing the Interface incarnate choices and found them to have very little impact in the 'real' world. My tests on a Tanker over the Comic Con farm map, no inspirations, Hybrid assault used on cooldown, were:

 

- Degenerative 75% chance for debuff: 7:20 - 7:30

- Reactive 25% chance for DoT: 7:20 - 7-30

- Reactive 75% chance for DoT: 6:20.

- No Interface slotted: 7:20 - 7:30

 

The tests were repeated and the numbers held. Basically it seems like the DoT is what influences things and normal mobs don't care about the -HP debuff or the -res has too little of an effect on +3 (+4 downshifted).

 

One minute less is still okay and I can see farmers flocking for it with their influence-per-minute goals, but for regular playing the impact is truly minimal since we are not at agro saturation for 5-7 minutes at a time.

 

 

 

While this seems more interesting for playing I then tested against an AV since they notoriously resist -res effects. I randomly picked Mako and wailed on him for five minutes. This is a simple and dirty one run test which is not the best way of testing due to the 5% misses variance:

 

- Reactive 75% chance of DoT: shaved 23% HP off.

- Degenerative 75% chance for -HP: shaved 46% HP off.

- No Interface slotted: shaved 22% HP off.

 

The 'no interface' and Reactive 75% are so close they can account for whiffing but the difference VS Degenerative is pretty substantial. What I can extract from this is that the -res resistance of AVs squashes the Reactive Interface.

 

 

 

In the tail of this testing I had a nagging feeling about -res procs. These are tremendous and can influence a build's output between 30 to 40 seconds to one minute on a pylon run.

 

But.

 

Pylons do not have -res resistance. AVs do. A quick and dirty run removing my Tanker's -res procs and substituting them for damage procs yielded 50% HP off from Mako after a five minute beating.

 

The 4% difference between -res and damage procs is close enough to be from whiffing so exchanging procs is either a wash or a small gain. But what I seem to extract from this testing is that since the -res procs do not stack then multiple players with damage procs instead will do more damage instead of re-applying a non stacking -res effect.

 

The slotting of -res procs have become a staple of builds since they are tested on pylons. The builds end being tailored for the testing being done even when an effort is made to be generalistic.

 

 

Now, some caveats:

 

- The testing was done on a Fire Armor Tanker. Burn takes notoriously well to damage procs so it skews the results for them.

- All testing except the map runs was one run only which is not the proper way to test. All it takes is the 5% to happen to Burn instead of Storm Kick and end results will show variance.

 

 

My request:

 

- Whomever has the inclination try using their own builds and test a run of Comic Con with their Interface of choice and then with it unslotted.

- Find an AV and hit it for five minutes (or if it dies before that *jealous*) with -res procs and then with those swapped out for damage procs.

[Rokkeb]

On 2/7/2021 at 12:45 PM, Bill Z Bubba said:

1: It takes very little time and gets my farmer more vet lvls to PL an alt to 50.

2: If I'm not going to play a character I see no reason for their continued existence.

3: It's an easy way to refill base bins with good stuff.

4: I'm not a fan of clutter.

 

I'm down to 52 characters but I plan to get that back below 50 soon. Too many tanks and brutes in my collection. 10 and 7 currently.

I feel you on this, I had 5 pages full of characters i never touched ranging in lvl from single digit to high 40s. Sometimes a character just doesn't play how i thought it would, or wasn't fun, or I couldn't get the concept to work on high concept characters. Or just felt like a shitty version of another character I already have and enjoy. So who cares if you have 1000 slots, why do you want to scroll through pages after page of garbo cahracters to find the ones you actually want to play? that was my thinking anyway. 

 

I spent awhile stripping and deleting some characters over the last 2 days, and I think i've deleted about 30 now, with maybe 30 more to go, then clean up (move position) all that's left, and organize them. 

[Sir Myshkin]

17 hours ago, Sovera said:

My request:

The debuff effects from the Interface triggers have never really demonstrated significant impact on most mob bashing below an EB (really AV) just because they're highly unlikely to survive long enough for the effect to matter, and/or stack enough too matter. The DoT component is always the better option to have at max percentage, by the time something like an AV comes along a consistent chain of attacks will almost always stack up max quantity of the debuff even at 25% chance.

 

Your request to go AV hunting is a bit skewed though. Yes they may resist the -Res procs, but the scale of performance isn't weighed in just the effect of that one proc, but by how much of a fulcrum it creates for the rest of the attacks, what natural defense/resistances the target enemy already has, and what level it may be shifted to (damage procs scale down with increased difficulty). Those -Res procs also result in more effective utilization of included damage procs, making them more valuable in a one-for-one exchange than a single damage proc in its place, exponentially.

 

To your point on the limitations of the -Res proc, since they don't stack including more than one of a given proc is typically wasted, yes, and being in a group of other players also running that proc can result in wasted "stacking," yes. The -Res procs are typically slotted in powers focused on ST execution, and those that can be slotted in AoE-centric abilities will rarely hit more than one or two targets within a spawn which is the only case where they may (or in some cases may not) result in a significant value exchange, but will typically result in an end damage-add that breaks even with what a damage proc would've provided. Given that, in a group setting not everyone will be always targeting the same thing (more likely not), and AoE effects including those -Res have a greater chance of spreading the proc to unaffected enemies resulting in wider net positive.

 

I'd say there's probably a bit of headroom to be given to more players not fully IO'ing characters, or including those -Res procs compared to those that do when talking about "should I or shouldn't I include this..." conversations as well. I'd stick by the expectation that it's highly more likely I'll have benefited by having the -Res slotted compared to not. In the more-likely-scenario I'm the only one carrying it, the team will have much better impact on something like an AV than compared to if I'd skipped it over a single one-off damage proc. Furthermore there's not much of a reason to exclude 2-3 damage procs from most attacks anyway. Most builds can compensate the addition of them alongside a -Res or two. Have cake, eat it too.

 

That's really all logistics I already encountered back when I did the Proc Monster threads.

[nihilii]

21 hours ago, Sovera said:

What I can extract from this is that the -res resistance of AVs squashes the Reactive Interface.

 

21 hours ago, Sovera said:

But.

 

Pylons do not have -res resistance. AVs do.

Perhaps you're aware of that and I'm misreading your wording, but just in case and for lurkers as much as anyone else: AVs as a whole don't have innate resistance to -res as part of their general AV protection against most debuffs. Some AVs have some level of resistance to some damage types, and resistance resists -res.

[Sovera]

2 hours ago, Sir Myshkin said:

I'd say there's probably a bit of headroom to be given to more players not fully IO'ing characters, or including those -Res procs compared to those that do when talking about "should I or shouldn't I include this..." conversations as well. I'd stick by the expectation that it's highly more likely I'll have benefited by having the -Res slotted compared to not. In the more-likely-scenario I'm the only one carrying it, the team will have much better impact on something like an AV than compared to if I'd skipped it over a single one-off damage proc. Furthermore there's not much of a reason to exclude 2-3 damage procs from most attacks anyway. Most builds can compensate the addition of them alongside a -Res or two. Have cake, eat it too.

But you see, this is what I am talking about and why I requested tests. From my own testing normal mobs did not die faster from having -res slotted in. Maybe there is some math behind it. Maybe the amount of extra damage we obtain from -res is not enough to account for a 'last hit' and since we have to do a last hit it nullifies the shaving obtained by the -res.

 

I don't do the maths, that's very much Bopper's side of things. Just like you do I merely test stuff, although you did it on a scale that shames my pale efforts. I still remember the -hours- you spent with each build in the proc monster thread.

 

And this is what I saw so far: damage proc slightly ahead or same as -res on an AV where on a pylon it is an immediate 40 second boost. So that's what I'm talking about: testing. Testing clears all doubts and just provides proof.

 

6 minutes ago, nihilii said:

 

Perhaps you're aware of that and I'm misreading your wording, but just in case and for lurkers as much as anyone else: AVs as a whole don't have innate resistance to -res as part of their general AV protection against most debuffs. Some AVs have some level of resistance to some damage types, and resistance resists -res.

Well, definitely more testing is needed then which is why I did my request. During the week-end I may just set up a mission with a varied assortment of AVs and clear my doubts. One run on one AV is definitely a terrible expression of the scientific method 😄

[Bill Z Bubba]

3 hours ago, Sovera said:

During the week-end I may just set up a mission with a varied assortment of AVs and clear my doubts. One run on one AV is definitely a terrible expression of the scientific method 😄

Eva Destruction's Praetorian Invasion arc gives you a single map with all the Praet AVs. Even has a built in timer. Run it at, say, +3/x1 and you'd likely get some decent data after a few runs if you're bouncing between different incarnate powers.

[SomeGuy]

So I did all this about two-three years ago, before TW got the nerf bat.

 

Pylon Times and Personal Rankings. No lore/hybrid/temps used.

 

01. Scrapper     TW/BIO/MA            0:52 (wtf)
02. Scrapper     DB/BIO/MB            1:21  
03. Scrapper     TW/ElA/MA            1:23
04. Scrapper     CLAWS/BIO/MB      1:26 (FU-MB-FOC-FU-SLASH-FOC)
05. Scrapper     TW/ENA/MA           1:30
06  Scrapper     DB/BIO/MA            1:31 (BF-AS-SS-AS)
07. Scrapper     DM/BIO/MB            1:54
08. Brute          TW/FA                     2:05
09. Dominator  Plant/Fire/Ice           2:08
10. Scrapper     DM/BIO/MA            2:09 (MG-Smite-SL-Smite)
11. Scrapper     WM/SD/MA             2:11 (CLOBBER-SHATTER-JAWBREAKER)
12. Brute          TW/ElA/MA              2:14
13. Scrapper     DB/ELE/MB              2:20    
13. Brute          SS/FA/GL                 2:21
14. Scrapper     Kat/Ele/MA              2:27 (SD-GD-SotW)
15. Stalker        ElM/NIN/MA           2:34 (lol) (CB-JL-ASS-CI)
16. Stalker        StJ/ENA/MA            2:35
17. Blaster        Ice/Mar                   2:38 (BiB-FR-IB)
18. Brute          SS/BIO/GL               2:39 (KO-GL-HM-Punch-GL-KO-HM-GL-HM-PUNCH-GL-KO)
19. Scrapper     KM/SD/MA             2:51 (CS-SB-BB-QS-SB)
20. Scrapper     IM/SD/MA              3:02
21. Scrapper     FM/SD/MA             3:08 (GFS-INC-FS)
22. Blaster        Fire/Atomic             3:25 (Blazing Bolt-Blaze-Fire Blast)
23. Brute          Rad/FA                    4:04
24. Scrapper     ElM/SD/MA            4:14

 

TW honestly was pretty boring since it just out DPSed everything, but mechanically it was pretty fun. EM/SD looks neat! Is Bio Armor really going to get the nerf bat? I really enjoyed it's hit'n'run style it encouraged on a scrapper in offensive.

Edited February 19, 2021 by SomeGuy
Adding a question.

[Bill Z Bubba]

49 minutes ago, SomeGuy said:

09. Dominator  Plant/Fire/Ice           2:08

What attack chain was this?!?!

[SomeGuy]

10 hours ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

What attack chain was this?!?!

The ST hold proceed bombed out, blazing bolt, and some other single target fire attack. I just know it wasn't flares. I theorized a dark/fire/ice would be faster ST dps due to the ST hold cast speed, but I never got around to testing it out due to the fact plant control on a dom is just to damned fun.

[Sovera]

Following @Sir Myshkin suggestion I tried Degenerative 75% chance for DoT and was pleasantly surprised at seeing it cut down the map times from 7:20 - 7:40 to 6:40-6:50. While this is a bit unreliable to test since mobs may flock or spread around and etc it may show a nice half term for an Interface choice that serves for 'real' play and AV. The effect is pretty minimal anyway as it takes 7 minutes of fighting to shave 30-40 seconds off.

 

 

Following @Bill Z Bubba's suggestion as well I found the Praetorian Invasion and used it to test.

 

All tests are 5 minutes long to smooth the 5% miss rate.

 

Bigger numbers = better.

 

Neuron:

- Degenerative 75% chance for DoT and -res procs : 67% HP beaten out of the AV.

- Degenerative 75% chance for DoT and damage procs: 61% HP beaten out of the AV.

- Degenerative 75% chance for -HP and damage procs: 54%

 

 

Nightstar. This one messes with testing with the constant knockbacks interrupting things. Still, it would be a nightmare to kill it with its resistances:

- Degenerative 75% chance for -HP and damage procs used: 25%.

- Degenerative 75% chance for DoT and -res procs used: 23%.

- Degenerative 75% chance for DoT and damage procs used: 18%.

 

 

Shadowhunter: ... waste of time, he healed up so a worthless AV to test things on.

 

 

Chimera. The best I found to test. But not to be taken lightly as he can be quite dangerous by causing defense debuff cascades and messing with endurance. I ended up doing more tests on him.

- Degenerative 75% chance for DoT and -res procs: 62% / 68% / 72%. 10% difference. Damn you RNG game!

- Degenerative 75% chance for DoT and damage procs: 60%

- Degenerative 75% chance for DoT, one -res in CAK, damage proc in Burn: 54% / 65%. 11% difference again.

- Degenerative 75% chance for -HP and damage procs: 54%

 

 

Black Swan:

- Degenerative 75% chance for DoT and -res procs: killed in 4:53 minutes.

- Degenerative 75% chance for DoT and damage procs: 95%.

 

 

That's about all I had the patience to test. Poor Black Swan is the runt of the litter and funny enough it is not the living electricity or the android, or the avatar of darkness... but the normal guy with a sword that ends being the most dangerous. Chimera shaves defense like no one's business and then plows through 90% resistances. Pure resistance builds might get owned pretty badly by him. I'm curious as to how a Radiation Armor would do since they at least have a heal and a shield but it didn't look good.

 

The damage procs are invariably last in the testing though the difference is not huge unlike with pylons and it took two -20% to have about 5% better times, but it can be argued it would multiply the damage of the whole team. Small as it turned out to be I personally prefer damage procs for regular play considering they do not stack with other players using them. But this is a personal decision and I'll just leave the data for others to decide for themselves.

 

Degenerative 75% DoT ended up being on par with its -HP counterpart for AV beating but the effect outside AVs while minimal is still almost as much as Reactive 75% DoT who on the other hand has little to no effect on AVs. I did not test Reactive against AVS but since it is half the -res of a single -res proc and it took two of those to give about 5% better times I do not see the point.

 

 

 

Edit: I ended up doing one last test with just one -res proc in CAK. I've added the numbers to the list.

Edited February 20, 2021 by Sovera

[Bill Z Bubba]

C'mon @Sovera give us the summation.

 

What's best on the simple?

[Sovera]

2 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

C'mon @Sovera give us the summation.

 

What's best on the simple?

Y'have the numbers in front of you, man 😛 Sheesh, such utter lazyness makes me proud.

 

Like I said here:

The damage procs are invariably last in the testing though the difference is not huge unlike with pylons and it took two -20% to have about 5% better times, but it can be argued it would multiply the damage of the whole team. Small as it turned out to be I personally prefer damage procs for regular play considering they do not stack with other players using them. But this is a personal decision and I'll just leave the data for others to decide for themselves.

 

I'll throw the ball on@Bopper's court. Does a non stacking 5-8% difference in a team mean the boss dies 5-8% faster, or does that 5% become a 40% damage increase once multiplied by 8 people? I've heard it both ways.

[Bopper]

21 minutes ago, Sovera said:

I'll throw the ball on@Bopper's court

I'm not 100% sure at to what the test is for. On one hand, I would suggest using a pylon because it's a big bag of HP with 20% resistance to everything (and will resist your resistance debuffs by 20%). It will also always be even con, so you don't have to think about purple patch.

 

I see you did some testing against AVs but I'm unsure as to how they con'd to you. Were they +3 or +2? I also don't know their resistance nor do I know what attacks and slotting you had, so all mileage will vary. 

 

As for the 5% more damage equate to 5% faster killing? Short answer is no. You have to factor in the regeneration of the target. For example, let's say your DPS is exactly the same as the Target's HPS, you will never kill your target (time to kill = infinity). But if you can do 1 more DPS than HPS, you will eventually kill the target. In this scenario, you increased your damage by only (HPS + 1)/HPS, but your kill time improved infinitely. 

[Sovera]

16 minutes ago, Bopper said:

I'm not 100% sure at to what the test is for. On one hand, I would suggest using a pylon because it's a big bag of HP with 20% resistance to everything (and will resist your resistance debuffs by 20%). It will also always be even con, so you don't have to think about purple patch.

 

I see you did some testing against AVs but I'm unsure as to how they con'd to you. Were they +3 or +2? I also don't know their resistance nor do I know what attacks and slotting you had, so all mileage will vary. 

 

As for the 5% more damage equate to 5% faster killing? Short answer is no. You have to factor in the regeneration of the target. For example, let's say your DPS is exactly the same as the Target's HPS, you will never kill your target (time to kill = infinity). But if you can do 1 more DPS than HPS, you will eventually kill the target. In this scenario, you increased your damage by only (HPS + 1)/HPS, but your kill time improved infinitely. 

+4, but +3 with Alpha T4-ed, but that was not the ball court thing, sorry for being obtuse. The test rose from how the use of -res procs became prevalent in builds because of pylon testing. I recently doubted of the effect of -res procs on AVs because of their resistances to -resists and purple patch, which is where this sudden bout of testing came to be.

 

To simplify this my testing showed that two 20% -res procs averaged out around 5-8% in extra damage (not killing time) after five minutes of bashing AVs.

 

The reiterated question is: are those 5-8% just 5-8% in a team of 8? Is it multiplied becoming 5% x 8 = minimum of 40% extra damage the AV takes?

 

My confusion raises from how in WoW (and in other games I'm sure) it's common to bring a class just because it can apply a boss debuff increasing the damage it takes by 5%, but no one says the boss is now taking 50% more damage from everyone combined! It's just taking 5% more.

 

But I have heard it both ways. A 5% debuff means 5% while others say it's 5% X everyone.

 

In this case it's from a -res effect which further muddles things.

[Frosticus]

You'd be better off setting yourself to invincible for testing. Or at least picking a character that can perform them with little deviation.

 

That said, degen takes a pylon from 102.xx hp/sec down to 86.xx hp/sec at max -hp.

Figuring out at what point the 75% dot surpasses that in additional dps will depend on your own build and what target you are facing in terms of max hp and resistances.

*keep in mind the 75% dot still does some -hp and visa versa.

 

The -res procs can make a large difference depending on how well a build leverages it and what they are giving up to apply it. Interrupting a high dps chain to use a slow/low damage power just to apply achilies might not amount to a net gain.

 

Conversely, damage procs can make a sizable contribution depending on how well you optimize the powers they are in and depending on how well your build can leverage the static damage (ie -res). Some players fall in to traps like slotting multiple procs in bitter ice blast, but they'd probably have been better just getting it to cycle as fast as possible given the dpa of other attacks in the set. 

 

Only 1 instance of each -res proc can be on a target regardless of how many people apply it, so again it will depend on several factors how you want to consider that in a team environment. If no one else has them a scrapper can suddenly be a high force multiplier. If they are already on the target then the scrapper is just a scrapper. 

 

 

[Bopper]

10 minutes ago, Sovera said:

+4, but +3 with Alpha T4-ed, but that was not the ball court thing, sorry for being obtuse. The test rose from how the use of -res procs became prevalent in builds because of pylon testing. I recently doubted of the effect of -res procs on AVs because of their resistances to -resists and purple patch, which is where this sudden bout of testing came to be.

 

To simplify this my testing showed that two 20% -res procs averaged out around 5-8% in extra damage (not killing time) after five minutes of bashing AVs.

 

The reiterated question is: are those 5-8% just 5-8% in a team of 8? Is it multiplied becoming 5% x 8 = minimum of 40% extra damage the AV takes?

 

My confusion raises from how in WoW (and in other games I'm sure) it's common to bring a class just because it can apply a boss debuff increasing the damage it takes by 5%, but no one says the boss is now taking 50% more damage from everyone combined! It's just taking 5% more.

 

But I have heard it both ways. A 5% debuff means 5% while others say it's 5% X everyone.

 

In this case it's from a -res effect which further muddles things.

I think for your test, it would help if you go back to each AV and put a Power Analyzer on them. This way we can see exactly what their resistances are for all damage types and compare that to your attacks' damage types as well as the damage type of your procs. Without this, there are still too many variables that can explain away things.

 

In regards to resistance debuff procs, keep in mind only 1 can be applied per target. So a team of 8 providing redundant resistance debuff procs won't be helpful other than to ensure more reliable uptime. So I agree, if everyone does -resistance procs then you are hurting your team. But if nobody does -resistance procs you are hurting your team. I can think of 3 resistance debuff procs: Annihilation (12.5%), Achilles (20%) and Fury of the Gladiator (20%). That's potentially 52.5% extra resistance debuffs that can be applied to your teams other resistance debuffs. You will want that, even if a +3 AV will have purple patch make those 65% effective (34.125% resistance debuff after PP).

 

To your point, resistance debuff procs while soloing will be more worthwhile than they will be on a team, as damage procs will always add more damage while resistance debuff procs will not stack with others. You're really looking at many variables with varying rules, which will be impossible to quantify from just soloing pylons or AVs. 

[Bopper]

5 minutes ago, Frosticus said:

That said, degen takes a pylon from 102.xx hp/sec down to 86.xx hp/sec at max -hp.

If I recall correctly, I believe the 4 stacks of -HP debuff will put the max HP of the target to 86.718% of normal (100% - 3.5%)^4.  This will reduce the HP/sec from 102.26 to 88.68. That's a nice 13.58 DPS added. But also the 4074.54 HP that you took off is quite significant as well. Gives you a nice headstart for killing the pylon.

[Sovera]

2 minutes ago, Bopper said:

I think for your test, it would help if you go back to each AV and put a Power Analyzer on them. This way we can see exactly what their resistances are for all damage types and compare that to your attacks' damage types as well as the damage type of your procs. Without this, there are still too many variables that can explain away things.

 

In regards to resistance debuff procs, keep in mind only 1 can be applied per target. So a team of 8 providing redundant resistance debuff procs won't be helpful other than to ensure more reliable uptime. So I agree, if everyone does -resistance procs then you are hurting your team. But if nobody does -resistance procs you are hurting your team. I can think of 3 resistance debuff procs: Annihilation (12.5%), Achilles (20%) and Fury of the Gladiator (20%). That's potentially 52.5% extra resistance debuffs that can be applied to your teams other resistance debuffs. You will want that, even if a +3 AV will have purple patch make those 65% effective (34.125% resistance debuff after PP).

 

To your point, resistance debuff procs while soloing will be more worthwhile than they will be on a team, as damage procs will always add more damage while resistance debuff procs will not stack with others. You're really looking at many variables with varying rules, which will be impossible to quantify from just soloing pylons or AVs. 

 

I don't think that the AV's resistances matter. If you look at the list there were quite the opposites of the spectrum. Some AVs were so resilient that after 5 minutes I only took 18% HP. Some were so squishy I actually killed in 5 minutes. But the % of the damage increase from having both -res procs remained consistent averaging a 5-8% damage boost over damage procs.

 

 

I went to do a quick test on a pylon. Swapping both -res procs for damage procs my 3 minute kill build turned into 4:03 - 4:20 minutes. This is not a 5-8% increase. If I am not sucking too much in mathing it's a 25% damage boost from having both -res procs slotted in.

 

Builds have had pylon testing so ingrained that we now equate -res procs = 25% damage boost, and damn, yeah, for 25% it's defs worth it. 5-8%? Not as much further considering it does not stack. And when tested in a farm map just to somewhat mimic gameplay not involving AVs the times with -res procs did not increase finishing the map faster. Damage procs averaged the same time, with the bonus there would not be non-stacking problems. But this part I can't rely on since Burn loves damage procs so it probably skewed that test.

 

Though it's not super important in itself but building for the 'real world' may be showing that the -res procs are not nearly as important as pylon testing has trained us to think.

[Sovera]

17 minutes ago, Frosticus said:

The -res procs can make a large difference depending on how well a build leverages it and what they are giving up to apply it. Interrupting a high dps chain to use a slow/low damage power just to apply achilies might not amount to a net gain.

 

Conversely, damage procs can make a sizable contribution depending on how well you optimize the powers they are in and depending on how well your build can leverage the static damage (ie -res). Some players fall in to traps like slotting multiple procs in bitter ice blast, but they'd probably have been better just getting it to cycle as fast as possible given the dpa of other attacks in the set. 

 

Only 1 instance of each -res proc can be on a target regardless of how many people apply it, so again it will depend on several factors how you want to consider that in a team environment. If no one else has them a scrapper can suddenly be a high force multiplier. If they are already on the target then the scrapper is just a scrapper.

But you see this is the testing I am trying to make. I'm trying to ask Bopper if the 5-8% damage boost is 40%+ for the team or not. I have no clue so I'm asking better heads. As my example above giving a boss a 5% damage debuff in WoW means just that. 5%. Not 5% multiplied by the whole raid, suddenly the boss taking 5%x20 persons = 100% extra damage boss. I don't need to tell you it doesn't work that way. The boss is simply taking 5% more damage.

 

IS a single someone with the -res procs slotted actually multiplying everyone's damage? Are they instead giving an additive buff? Multiplicative and additive are not the same.

 

In CoH? -res involved? Who da heck knows. Not me 😄

[Frosticus]

10 minutes ago, Bopper said:

If I recall correctly, I believe the 4 stacks of -HP debuff will put the max HP of the target to 86.718% of normal (100% - 3.5%)^4.  This will reduce the HP/sec from 102.26 to 88.68. That's a nice 13.58 DPS added. But also the 4074.54 HP that you took off is quite significant as well. Gives you a nice headstart for killing the pylon.

I use 75% dot on my ill/cold, but I have a lot of sources triggering interface so most of the time I'm at 3 stacks.

However, I do see this happen fairly often.

[Frosticus]

2 minutes ago, Sovera said:

IS a single someone with the -res procs slotted actually multiplying everyone's damage? Are they instead giving an additive buff? Multiplicative and additive are not the same.

 

-res multiplies final damage. 

15 minutes ago, Sovera said:

Builds have had pylon testing so ingrained that we now equate -res procs = 25% damage boost, and damn, yeah, for 25% it's defs worth it. 5-8%? Not as much further considering it does not stack. And when tested in a farm map just to somewhat mimic gameplay not involving AVs the times with -res procs did not increase finishing the map faster. Damage procs averaged the same time, with the bonus there would not be non-stacking problems. But this part I can't rely on since Burn loves damage procs so it probably skewed that test.

 

Though it's not super important in itself but building for the 'real world' may be showing that the -res procs are not nearly as important as pylon testing has trained us to think.

I'm not sure of anyone that thinks this. A -20% res proc improves damage by 20% against even cons in a perfect scenario. It is affected by purple patch and your own ability to apply it consistently and at what opportunity cost.

[Bopper]

23 minutes ago, Frosticus said:

I use 75% dot on my ill/cold, but I have a lot of sources triggering interface so most of the time I'm at 3 stacks.

However, I do see this happen fairly often.

Doh...I totally forgot about the 1k cap. So my math was wrong anyways. However, you are showing 5 stacks there, basically, which is very peculiar.

 

Ok, so factoring in the -1000HP cap, you would see a breakdown like this.

	Max HP	Next Debuff	HP/sec
Original	30677.15	1000	102.257
1 stack	29677.15	1000	98.924
2 stack	28677.15	1000	95.591
3 stack	27677.15	968.700	92.257
4 stack	26708.45	capped	89.028

 

Now, that could fluctuate at times as your debuffs apply and wear off, but this is a ballpark number.

I also recall seeing 5 stacks like this in the past, but I figured it was a display bug as the power data shows the stack limit is 4 for this debuff.

 

Also, by the way, great use of 75% DoT proc. When you have a ton of sources that can trigger the debuff, it's very smart to maximize the DoT as it is a cancel-on-miss DoT that can stack up to 8 times.

Edited February 20, 2021 by Bopper

[Bopper]

34 minutes ago, Sovera said:

I don't think that the AV's resistances matter.

It absolutely matters. Not only will it resist your damage, it will resist your resistance debuffs. When you analyze the impact of -res procs through timed tests, you absolutely need to be looking at this for context.

[Sovera]

3 minutes ago, Bopper said:

It absolutely matters. Not only will it resist your damage, it will resist your resistance debuffs. When you analyze the impact of -res procs through timed tests, you absolutely need to be looking at this for context.

But... the one who died in less than five minutes and the one who only had 18% shaved off both had the same 5-8% despite wildly different resistances.

 

Regardless and to get to the bottom of it (I hope you appreciate the effort, @Bill Z Bubba!)

 

Neuron:

 

Black Swan:

 

Chimera:

 

Nightstar:

Booyah, no wonder 5 minutes of wailing on her was only 18%.

 

 

Tested on a Martial Arts so all Smash damage.  CAK, Storm Kick, Crane Kick, Storm Kick. Burn when ever it is up.

 

Spoiler

This Hero build was built using Mids Reborn 3.0.4.7
https://github.com/Reborn-Team/MidsReborn

Click this DataLink to open the build!

Level 50 Magic Tanker
Primary Power Set: Fiery Aura
Secondary Power Set: Martial Arts
Power Pool: Speed
Power Pool: Flight
Power Pool: Leadership
Power Pool: Fighting
Ancillary Pool: Energy Mastery

Hero Profile:
Level 1: Blazing Aura -- SprGntFis-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(A), SprGntFis-Rchg/+Absorb(3), SprGntFis-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(3), SprGntFis-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(5), SprGntFis-Acc/Dmg(7), SprGntFis-Dmg/Rchg(48)
Level 1: Thunder Kick -- Mk'Bit-Acc/Dmg(A), Mk'Bit-Dmg/EndRdx(27), Mk'Bit-Dmg/Rchg(43), Mk'Bit-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg(46), Mk'Bit-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(50), Mk'Bit-Dam%(50)
Level 2: Storm Kick -- SprMghoft-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(A), SprMghoft-Rchg/Res%(11), SprMghoft-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(13), SprMghoft-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(13), TchofDth-Dam%(15), GldStr-%Dam(15)
Level 4: Fire Shield -- UnbGrd-ResDam(A), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx(5), UnbGrd-EndRdx/Rchg(7), UnbGrd-Rchg/ResDam(47)
Level 6: Hasten -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(11)
Level 8: Healing Flames -- NmnCnv-Heal/EndRdx(A), NmnCnv-EndRdx/Rchg(17), NmnCnv-Heal/Rchg(17), NmnCnv-Heal/EndRdx/Rchg(19), NmnCnv-Heal(19), NmnCnv-Regen/Rcvry+(21)
Level 10: Hover -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A), ShlWal-ResDam/Re TP(21), Rct-ResDam%(23)
Level 12: Plasma Shield -- Ags-Psi/Status(A), Ags-ResDam/EndRdx(23), Ags-ResDam/Rchg(25), Ags-ResDam(25), Ags-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(27), StdPrt-ResDam/Def+(43)
Level 14: Consume -- SynSck-EndMod/+RunSpeed(A), SynSck-Dam/Rech/Acc(29), SynSck-EndMod/Rech(29), SynSck-Dam/Rech(31), SynSck-EndMod(31), SynSck-Dam/Acc/End(31)
Level 16: Crane Kick -- SprBlsCol-Dmg/EndRdx/Acc/Rchg(A), SprBlsCol-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(33), SprBlsCol-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(33), TchofDth-Dam%(33), OvrFrc-Dam/KB(34), FrcFdb-Rechg%(34)
Level 18: Burn -- Arm-Dam%(A), Arm-Dmg/Rchg(34), Arm-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(36), Arm-Acc/Rchg(36), Arm-Dmg/EndRdx(36), Erd-%Dam(37)
Level 20: Dragon's Tail -- ScrDrv-Acc/Dmg(A), ScrDrv-Acc/Rchg(37), ScrDrv-Dam%(37), ScrDrv-Dmg/Rchg(39), ScrDrv-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(39), FrcFdb-Rechg%(39)
Level 22: Fly -- BlsoftheZ-ResKB(A), WntGif-ResSlow(40)
Level 24: Afterburner -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A)
Level 26: Fiery Embrace -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(40)
Level 28: Focus Chi -- GssSynFr--ToHit(A), GssSynFr--ToHit/Rchg(40), GssSynFr--ToHit/Rchg/EndRdx(42), GssSynFr--Rchg/EndRdx(42), GssSynFr--ToHit/EndRdx(42), GssSynFr--Build%(43)
Level 30: Maneuvers -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A)
Level 32: Kick -- Empty(A)
Level 35: Crippling Axe Kick -- Hct-Dam%(A), Hct-Dmg/Rchg(45), Hct-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(45), Hct-Acc/Rchg(45), Hct-Dmg/EndRdx(46), TchofDth-Dam%(46)
Level 38: Focused Accuracy -- EndRdx-I(A)
Level 41: Tough -- GldArm-3defTpProc(A)
Level 44: Weave -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A), Rct-Def(47), Rct-Def/EndRdx(48)
Level 47: Physical Perfection -- PrfShf-End%(A)
Level 49: Assault -- EndRdx-I(A)
Level 1: Gauntlet
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Swift -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Hurdle -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Health -- Pnc-Heal/+End(A), Mrc-Rcvry+(9)
Level 2: Stamina -- PrfShf-End%(A), PrfShf-EndMod(9)
Level 1: Prestige Power Dash -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Slide -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Quick -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Rush -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Surge -- Empty(A)
Level 4: Ninja Run
Level 50: Musculature Core Paragon
Level 50: Pyronic Core Final Judgement
Level 50: Reactive Radial Flawless Interface
Level 50: Banished Pantheon Radial Superior Ally
Level 50: Barrier Core Epiphany
Level 50: Assault Core Embodiment
Level 50: Portal Jockey
Level 50: Task Force Commander
Level 50: The Atlas Medallion
Level 50: Freedom Phalanx Reserve
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