The Twinshot Trap

[MrAxe]

Did it once, never again. I'll always avoid her from now on. So damn boring.

Edited September 11, 2019 by MrAxe

[Zeraphia]

"Let me introduce you to Ms. Liberty!"

 

Lady, I'm level 6, that didn't happen by magic.

[Oubliette_Red]

I see it more or less as a training arc, teaching new players the ins and outs of gameplay. Sadly, it can easily overpower your character as it grows in difficulty far more quickly that your hero does. I think many new players aren't going to know to take a break from it, run some other contacts, and come back to it after a few levels.

 

It's definitely not something I'll run more than once. And I did it back on Legacy, so I'm covered... <.<

[MTeague]

Same with Doc Graves on the Redside counterpoint. About half my characters run it each go round. 

 

But I really don't see it as a good tutorial series.  Case in point, a efw missions you're up against a few bosses in a row, or multiple bosses at once.  If you know what you're doing and you have a strong set or a bunch of inspirations that you saved just for it, you can probably overpower it.  But if you're a low-level dominator?  fighitng multiple bosses in a row?  can't kill fast enough to maintain domination for all of them, and there's no trash between them to build up Domination between them... it can be nasty. 

 

Or on Twinshot, the final confrontation mission, I wouldn't want to try that on certain AT / Powerset combo's, let's say.  I wiped completely on my Controller (Mind/Kin), but good news was I'd run far enough away before they killed me that I could safely use an Awaken... and then I just chain-confused Riptide and had him maul down the others.... and then could take down Riptide solo by keeping him Confused as I gradually nibbled him to death with Mezmerize and Dominate.

 

I do like the mission arcs, but I do not consider them good ideas for actual new folks.

[Doc_Scorpion]

1 hour ago, Oubliette_Red said:

I see it more or less as a training arc, teaching new players the ins and outs of gameplay.

At which goal it fails utterly.  By the time the Shining Stars arc gets around to explaining stuff, you've already been encountering that stuff for several levels.  The arc's basic flaw is that it seems to assume you were powerleveled to "not quite entirely a n00b" and then entered the game - and pretty much only played the Shining Stars arc from that point.

All that stuff was much better explained (and at a better point in a characters progression) in the original Breakout and Outbreak tutorials.  The POS Galaxy City tutorial is not a replacement for either.

[ArchVileTerror]

Doc Scorpion absolutely NAILING it there.  100%, on all points!

[Oubliette_Red]

1 hour ago, ArchVileTerror said:

Doc Scorpion absolutely NAILING it there.  100%, on all points!

Agreed.

[MTeague]

2 hours ago, Doc_Scorpion said:

At which goal it fails utterly.  By the time the Shining Stars arc gets around to explaining stuff, you've already been encountering that stuff for several levels.  The arc's basic flaw is that it seems to assume you were powerleveled to "not quite entirely a n00b" and then entered the game - and pretty much only played the Shining Stars arc from that point.

All that stuff was much better explained (and at a better point in a characters progression) in the original Breakout and Outbreak tutorials.  The POS Galaxy City tutorial is not a replacement for either.

you mean weren't immediately hit by feellings of worry and concern to make sure that Blue Spectrum would be okay?  /sarc

 

seriously if I could just SHUT UP the voice acting in galaxy city tutorial it would be 80% less annoying.

[Display Name]

The Twinshot arcs can be completed in Flashback (reply to previous post)

[Sakura Tenshi]

On 9/9/2019 at 8:11 AM, Doc_Scorpion said:

And even at that they're massive fail.  By the time they teach you that stuff, your introductory contact has already sent you to other zones.  You've almost certainly died and been to the hospital.  Etc... etc...  The only people who need Twinshot's lame-as-(censored) "tutorials" are those who've powerleveled to 5-9...  And how many people are going to powerlevel only as far as "just barely not a complete n00b" and stop?

If the Twinshot arcs are to be of any use, then they should be the standard "first contact" and then the player is referred to an introductory origin contact.  Even then a lot of the lame-as-(censored) dialog needs to replaced...  all that krep about "cool kids" is meant to warm and inviting, but it's demeaning and insulting.

I do agree the dialogue could use some touch up and the level of the arcs (and difficulty, all those Arachnos boss spawns which can include two bosses to a mobs even on x1/+0 can be painful, especially to a controller and only marginally less-so to a Dom) lowered to a base introduction contact. But people could very well powerlevel past that stuff without setting foot in AE: it's called Death from Below Trial, something very popular to run even now, nevermind how easily you can outlevel twinshot or any of the Atlas arcs if you run the DFB more than once which many will. Especially on Live where getting the badges could be tricky because of new players not getting it. As for the 'cool kids' dialogue stuff feeling patronizing, do you consider that City of Heroes was ultimately imagined to be an MMO teens and young adults would play, even if it's done roughly through the filter of middle aged shut-ins like Matt Miller and Jack Emmert? Most of us even during live were a periphery demographic to the game, so yes 'cool kids'.

 

Also, the Twinshot finale is freaking worth it if you ask me. A bit moreso than the Dr. Graves arc (though I feel Doctor Graves was mechanically better done)

 

2 hours ago, MTeague said:

you mean weren't immediately hit by feellings of worry and concern to make sure that Blue Spectrum would be okay?  /sarc

 

seriously if I could just SHUT UP the voice acting in galaxy city tutorial it would be 80% less annoying.

Pretty sure there's actually a sound option to silence the voice over.

Edited April 6, 2020 by Sakura Tenshi

[Doc_Scorpion]

5 minutes ago, Sakura Tenshi said:

As for the 'cool kids' dialogue stuff feeling patronizing, do you consider that City of Heroes was ultimately imagined to be an MMO teens and young adults would play, even if it's done roughly through the filter of middle aged shut-ins like Matt Miller and Jack Emmert? Most of us even during live were a periphery demographic to the game, so yes 'cool kids'.

Even as a teen or a young adult I knew when I was being patronized and despised it.  (Doubly so because I wasn't a "cool kid".)

[Herotu]

On 9/9/2019 at 2:24 PM, Apparition said:

Twinshot's mission arcs would be far more enjoyable if I could punch Flambeaux in the face after every mission. 

It's a character in a video game. It'd be boring if they were all the same. If you read the computer file of Flambeaux in one of the missions it identifies her as a potential for Going Rogue (switching to villainy), which was the name of the product they were making at the time. There are reasons she's written like she is. Also, we all know of people like her IRL, so I think she's well written.

 

If the miserable Emo Goth kids didn't like her, that's fine. Get over it and on with your life.

  

12 hours ago, Doc_Scorpion said:

Even as a teen or a young adult I knew when I was being patronized and despised it.  (Doubly so because I wasn't a "cool kid".)

As an adult at the time, I enjoyed it.

Edited April 7, 2020 by Herotu

[tidge]

1 hour ago, Herotu said:

It's a character in a video game. It'd be boring if they were all the same. If you read the computer file of Flambeaux in one of the missions it identifies her as a potential for Going Rogue (switching to villainy), which was the name of the product they were making at the time. There are reasons she's written like she is. Also, we all know of people like her IRL, so I think she's well written.

I think the point of the Flambeaux dialogue is to make you that much more excited when she shows up in Tip missions... and 'interact' with her in those missions.

[eknudson]

Haven't tested this, but can we use our new nerf bat on Flambeaux?

[DR_Mechano]

Yeah lets be honest, the Twinshot arc REALLY needed to be a level 1-5 intro, in fact the entire set of arcs should be bumped down a level bracket. 1-5, 5-10 and 10-15. The writing may be kinda crap but atleast then they'd function as their intended 'extended tutorial'. Otherwise we get into the problems of them making no freaking sense for their level range, especially the intro arc being 5-10...because you've probably already learned like 90% of the stuff in the arc before even starting it.

[justicebeliever]

7 minutes ago, DR_Mechano said:

Yeah lets be honest, the Twinshot arc REALLY needed to be a level 1-5 intro, in fact the entire set of arcs should be bumped down a level bracket. 1-5, 5-10 and 10-15. The writing may be kinda crap but atleast then they'd function as their intended 'extended tutorial'. Otherwise we get into the problems of them making no freaking sense for their level range, especially the intro arc being 5-10...because you've probably already learned like 90% of the stuff in the arc before even starting it.

I like the idea of the tutorial, but agree it's massively off in the levels it's introduced

 

Ideally:

Level 1-5 - A New Day Dawning

  Remove the visit to KR at this point, you'd be clobbered as lvl 1

Level 5-10 - Big Leagues

  Add the Visit to KR/Blue Steel in the beginning

  Remove the Visit to Steel Canyon (again too high level, and too early for University)

  Add the "If you don't mind" mission (SK'ing/Examplaring)

Level 10-15 - With Friends Like These

  Add the Visit to Steel/University in place of the "If you don't mind"

 

Something like that feels like it follows the rhythm of the low levels much closer

  

[RikOz]

On 9/9/2019 at 8:11 AM, Doc_Scorpion said:

all that krep about "cool kids" is meant to warm and inviting, but it's demeaning and insulting.

Yeah, I got really tired of Twinshot calling me "kiddo". Particularly when my character is middle-aged.

[Coyotedancer]

On 9/9/2019 at 5:14 AM, MetaVileTerror said:

I mean, all things considered, I found Dr. Graves arcs to be FAR more awful.  The writing robs the player of any agency of motivation or emotion, and casts your character as an idiot thug with anger issues.  Who even wrote that?

 

This. SO much this...

 

As annoying as Twinshot and her pals are, the red-side arc is just worse. 

[justicebeliever]

Twinshot gets a bad rap - She  must have good taste in character, if she picked me, out of all the heroes, to be in the Shining Stars.  Proton seems super trust-worthy, and Flambeaux is just a sweetheart, such a selfless hero.  It's that Grym you got to watch out for.  He just shows up all the sudden, uninvited, and we are just supposed to trust him?  Arachnos showed up uninvited and we don't trust those guys. 

 

But why Arachnos?  And why attack the Shining Stars?  Were they just afraid to take on any of the A, B, or even C list super groups and decided the Shining Stars, while not as glamorous as knocking over a bank or a garbage truck, would be at least better than grabbing purses from civilians in Atlas Park?

[MTeague]

2 hours ago, RikOz said:

Yeah, I got really tired of Twinshot calling me "kiddo". Particularly when my character is middle-aged.

I think the intent is, whether or not your character is young or old.... my Mind/Kin uses "Older Face 1" or "Older Face 3", I can't remember which is which... but he's definitely "Gramps" style hero....  Twinshot herself. believes that she's been everywhere, she's seen it all, and whatever you've seen must pale in comparison to her experiences.

 

This doens't make her RIGHT.  She can be entirely mistaken and unable to see it. 

Like, my Mind/Kin, in my own personal headcanon, is a Gandalf like figure who has acted as a hidden hand guiding and teaching humanity for several thousand years. 

So he just kind of smiled a bemused smile at Twinshot and let her think what she would think, not feeling any need to correct or instruct her.  He knew the truth of matter and that was enough whether or not she was aware.

[Sakura Tenshi]

I mean, part of the Shining Stars arc is Twin Shot realizing she's wrong and you're out of HER league than you just being within hers.

 

That said, I still don't mind running Twinshot and Graves are somewhat regularly because it's still a bit more interesting than some of the older content than stuff like Jake Montoya or the literal non-arcs handed out by Azuria and the other old origin contacts (which is a hell of a shame because 'origin related storyarcs' was a cool concept).

 

Also does help that my main villain on this server, Bullette Hell, was THAT kind of an idiot.

[siolfir]

On 4/6/2020 at 11:29 AM, Zeraphia said:

"Let me introduce you to Ms. Liberty!"

 

Lady, I'm level 6, that didn't happen by magic.

It should be updated to Back Alley Brawler, since a lot of people don't even know he's there.

[SurfD]

On 9/10/2019 at 8:28 PM, Eva Destruction said:

It would be cool if CoV had "paths," kind of like Praetoria has Warden and Crusader or Power and Responsibility.  You'd know what kind of missions the contacts offer before you accepted them as a contact, so if your villain was a mustache-twirler they could choose contacts like Peter Themari but if they were "just misunderstood" they'd be happier with content like Slot Machine.

 

This is actually a really good point.  It's not quite as bad Hero side, because everybody Hero side is generally trying to be a good guy: save the world, rescue the hostage, stop the bad guy, etc.  Where the difference between a Hero and a Vigilante is generally their means, rather than their motivation.

Villain side should really have the branching path of "Villain" Vs "Rogue" baked into the content though, as there is a big motivational difference between a typical rogue vs a villain.    Are you out there to just be a badass, to be the tough guy on the block that people don't mess with.  Or is your goal to take over the world and crush humanity under your feet?   Cause it can be disconcerting to go from a story arc where the entire goal of the story arc is building personal power and showing you aren't to be messed with (which fits perfectly fine with a Rogue type character) to then stumbling across a contact like Westin Phipps, who literally plays out like he is one step away from Evil Incarnate and likely spends his bonus pay buying puppies specifically so he can see how far he can kick them.......

Edited April 13, 2020 by SurfD

[Fista]

Sadly I'm a badge whore so I have to play Twin Shot. It's fun the first one or two times but yeah. It's not the best. Up side there is so much content in the game you can easily skip it.

[manny_t]

I've actually been playing through the Twinshot arc for the first time ever recently, and even without having years of animosity built up between me and her there's some definite major issues with it.

 

The first thing, as has been mentioned before, is that it's a tutorial that's about five levels too late. All the "go talk to Ms. Liberty" and that nonsense is totally worthless once she introduces herself, since obviously we've already done that. Someone somewhere mentioned that she oughta introduce you to BAB, which would make more sense in terms of design and aesthetics; I never see anyone at BAB so maybe people don't even know he's there, and Twinshot herself is a low-level "street" type hero, so her knowing (and showing off that she knows) BAB seems more probable. However, the tutorial aspects of those early missions are also just half-baked. One bit of a mission has you go to a police station where, once you get one in your contact list, you can interact with a detective and get the police scanner. The mission DOESN'T HAVE YOU DO THIS. Another one has you go over to Wentworth's and another to AE, but neither of those in any way explain what these locations are; lots of people will probably check it out themselves later on, but why have this in a mission that has nothing to do with these things? I'm on this mission, I'm not gonna stop now and run some player content in AE.

 

The other thing that annoys me is that the enemies in some areas all con higher threat and as bosses (but they clearly aren't actually) and you often fight only one or two at a time. Playing through them at the appropriate levels, they are slightly harder to kill than normal enemies but don't seem any harder to hit and don't deal appreciably more damage. Maybe I just got lucky, but it seems to me that they made all the enemies harder at face value to make your character look more powerful. If Manticore was really testing you, it didn't feel like much of a test. Why not have gangs of dudes and some ACTUALLY higher tier enemies like every other mission I've done? Hell, the packs out on the streets follow this better.

 

Some of the mission design and dialog is bad. The one mission at like level 10 I think where you go to the new base was a standout because of the almost-deliberately-misleading lines about what's going on. You go there for another wasteful tutorial trek, but then it's actually a mission. Why can't Proton tell me where his relays are that he made? Why does he tell me the Skulls leader is trying to escape when the guy is just hanging out on the top floor? As far as dialog, I'm on the side of the fence that doesn't like when my character's lines press too far into telling me what kind of person I am or what I think. This mission arc isn't the worst of that, but it gets out into that field.

 

All that being said, the characters only somewhat annoy me. Twinshot herself comes off as a jackass but I also get the impression that it's her trying to act tougher and more "world-weary" than she really is. Grym is fine if a rather tired, archetypical personality; Proton I don't like because of one throwaway line where he's like the big hero "of his own timeline," but here he's not particularly powerful...why exactly? Flambeaux and Dillo are both the most grating of the group since neither are funny, but I think Flambeaux was done deliberately. Somebody just went too overboard on the "goofy alien" with Dillo.

 

Now, at the end of this, the story arc does have something that I actually like. It puts my character right in there with other characters in the game world and puts a story to it that actually has my guy be somewhat important for the outcome. I show up and do the stuff that actually leads to the ending of each of these missions and, although I'm being told to do these things by other characters, the mission flavor text actually acknowledges that it was me that did it and characters are suitably impressed and appreciative.