Focused Feedback: Tank Updates

[Vanden]

2 minutes ago, Auroxis said:

You caught me on semantics then. What I should have said is reaching old levels of optimized DPS.

I'm not seeing the difference? If a player had an optimized attack chain that took advantage of Bruising, it should produce the exact same damage numbers with the proposed change.

[Auroxis]

Just now, Vanden said:

I'm not seeing the difference? If a player had an optimized attack chain that took advantage of Bruising, it should produce the exact same damage numbers with the proposed change.

The difference is that a player optimized his power choices to have the best attack chain. Now after the patch, it's no longer the best attack chain and he has to respec in order to have the best attack chain.

[Vanden]

Just now, Auroxis said:

The difference is that a player optimized his power choices to have the best attack chain. Now after the patch, it's no longer the best attack chain and he has to respec in order to have the best attack chain.

That's a new level of optimized DPS then, not the old one.

[Auroxis]

Just now, Vanden said:

That's a new level of optimized DPS then, not the old one.

Doesn't matter, still need to respec to be optimal.

[Vanden]

6 minutes ago, Auroxis said:

Doesn't matter, still need to respec to be optimal.

What an albatross it is, the opportunity to improve one's characters.

 

Personally I'm ecstatic at the prospect of finally being able to drop my hated T1 attacks and pick up powers I actually want. The T1/T2 power swap is the thing I'm looking forward to most, by far.

Edited September 14, 2019 by Vanden

[Auroxis]

7 minutes ago, Vanden said:

What an albatross it is, the opportunity to improve one's characters.

 

Personally I'm ecstatic of the prospect of finally being able to drop my hated T1 attacks and pick up powers I actually want. The T1/T2 power swap is the thing I'm looking forward to most, by far.

I'm definitely not ecstatic to have the "opportunity" to go through 30 minutes of respeccing and re-arranging my power tray on most of my tankers.

 

Nor am I ecstatic to have a -res debuff power taken away from my character.

Edited September 14, 2019 by Auroxis

[Golden Azrael]

I rolled a En/Invul tanker on Beta Pineapple.

 

Thoughts:

 

Seems to return Energy to it's piston hard hitting roots?  

 

Two shotting blues and three shooting whites is good.  Where I'd like it to be.  You hit slow.  You hit hard.  So base damage feels better and the results back this up.  I'm not having to do 2 or 3 attack rotations and emptying the end bar just to dispatch a modest mob.

The aggro' seems good.  (I put a Hollows Wilcott mission on -1 x 8 and I was very popular with the Outcasts.)  Feels punvokey.

End.  Much better.  The higher base means you're not out of end by the time you get to the 3rd mob.  

 

And whilst all tank sets have the tier 1 or 2 swap.  I speak for Energy here.  Energy punch works MUCH better as a tier 1 power.  It's so-so damage as a tier 2 works much better as a more endowed tier 1 hitter.  Barrage as T2 works great.  ...and then Tier 3 suddenly makes even more sense.

 

Will Energy get it's old energy transfer animation back as a quicker acting power.  Not that I dislike the showy pom moms animation.  I enjoy the theatre of it.

 

So far, so good.

 

That said.  This doesn't feel like a revolution.  Not yet.  Only what has long been necessary.  Acc Taunt, Higher base dam, higher base end are the basics of keeping getting and keeping more aggro, being able to affect the fight and last the fight.  All of which make sense for the AT.  

 

I am currently playing an end thirsty SR/SJustice tank on live.  It feels light on damage (thought can hold aggro well enough...)  The base chances will be very welcome.

 

The revolution?  Make a single stage of 'Rage' to replace build up for all non-SS tanks.  Perhaps SS can keep its version stackable.  But giving Rage to all non SS tanks like En/Ice and Stone would be the true revolution and put Tanks back on the map.

 

Titan Weapons is it's own special thing.  That said, I rolled one and took it to l50 on beta.  Coupled with Radiation.  I can see why people rave about it.  And why both are popular.  Insane.  It put my L50 energy invul in the shade.  It felt old fashioned  (I rolled two on beta...one max and one to level normally as if it were being levelled on live)I say this because, EVEN if(!), the non-SS tanks got 'Rage' single click, I don't think it would feel OP compared to Titans which is unique.  And it would give playing tanks a more compelling reason.  Not only can you take aggro?  But you can affect a fight by getting stuck in.

 

In energy's case you become a super piston.  Slow but when the mob gets clomped?  It really gets bopped.  And that's teh way I feel about tanks, you hit slow but hard.

 

Late on in the game?  You should have access to 'Rage' (as opposed to Build Up, just replace it with Rage) single stack.  So when you hit slow? You hit super hard.  You can genuinely affect a fight.

 

Azrael.

Edited September 14, 2019 by Golden Azrael

[Sovera]

1 hour ago, Auroxis said:

That's the point, there's a "better attack chain" now from most powersets which requires a respec in order to obtain.

A respec costs 200k in the AH, so not exactly a big problem. It might be a bigger problem if they want the old T1 because it does something special or the recharge/animation fits their needs and now they need to find a power to discard so that they can fit the old T1 back in.

 

Also, 30 minutes? My man, hyperbole much? 5 minutes, tops? A one time thing?

Edited September 14, 2019 by Sovera

[Parabola]

1 hour ago, Auroxis said:

I'm definitely not ecstatic to have the "opportunity" to go through 30 minutes of respeccing and re-arranging my power tray on most of my tankers.

I don't understand this argument at all. If these changes go live you won't be forced to change a thing and your tanks will automatically be a bit better. You will then have the option to improve on that as and when you'd like to respec.

 

The min/max endpoint moves around all the time surely. Even without the devs changing anything in some cases. For example have a look at the work being done on optimising the use of procs in the ppm world. There are probably many a defender/troller that have been respecced to take advantage of the new understanding, i know some of mine have. I don't see anyone telling them to knock it off because they feel compelled to respec to the new min/max at all times but at the same time can't be bothered to do it.

[Redlynne]

6 hours ago, Vanden said:

@Redlynne How does that solve the problem of multiple Tankers being redundant? Bloom can't have more than 5 stacks no matter how many Nature Affinity characters are on the team, and more Tankers wouldn't allow for more Bruising if you had it work the same way. Increasing Tanker damage is a better solution for Tanker redundancy than this, because it means more Tankers makes for more substantial additional DPS than they do currently.

Like so ...

7 hours ago, Redlynne said:

Ideally speaking you'd want this max Bruising limit to function as a max stack per Tanker on each $Target, rather than as a max stack from ALL Tankers per $Target.

Tanker 1 can add up to 5 stacks of the Bruising debuff.

Tanker 2 can add up to 5 MORE stacks of the Bruising debuff (up to a total of 10).

Tanker 3 can add up to 5 MORE stacks of the Bruising debuff (up to a total of 15).

...

 

Make sense now?

[Redlynne]

2 hours ago, Vanden said:

2 hours ago, Auroxis said:

So yes, forcing a respec to reach old DPS levels.

So you completely misunderstood? The new T1 power picks don't change your powers until you respec.

Breaking the Cottage Rule in this way is going to play merry havoc with build planners and builds posted in the forums.

 

Do. Not. Want.

[MrAxe]

2 hours ago, Auroxis said:

Doesn't matter, still need to respec to be optimal.

I don't see the big deal in having to respec. We get one every 10 levels. Much more than what we did on live. If someone cares enough for this to matter they'll most likely be a high enough level to have a few respecs under their belt.

 

Edit: Read your other reply about amount of time to rearrange stuff. I don't think changes should be prevented just because of this. You rearrange once per respec and its done. It is annoying (I did it yesterday) but I gladly did it to make a better toon.

Edited September 14, 2019 by MrAxe

[Redlynne]

2 hours ago, Vanden said:

All tanker attacks do 20% more damage at base now. That's the same amount Bruising adds.

You're analyzing from a soloist perspective where the two effects are equivalent and therefore interchangeable with no discernable difference.

Six of one versus half a dozen of the other.

 

That calculus changes though as soon as you start looking at it in terms of Team-2 or more ... and the team context is actually what's more important here, because what a Tanker can "do" for a team is far more "relevant" in a team context than what they can do while solo.  I say that because Taunt is pretty much irrelevant while solo (you get all the aggro by default) and only really becomes important in a team context.

 

Now, we can argue over whether Bruising should stack or not.

Spoiler alert, I'm of the opinion that it should ... because we know what happens when it doesn't.

Imagine how the game would play if buffs/debuffs/mez effects for other Archetypes DID NOT STACK so that only the "biggest" effect mattered and everything else was rendered moot/irrelevant due to the lack of stacking.  Yeah ... like that.  Holds don't stack on Hamidon, so it sucks to be you!  That kind of Gimped By Design game mechanical work is going to seep into the conventional wisdom™ regarding how many you "need" to bring to bear of a particular archetype.

 

We can argue whether Bruising should be resistable and/or unresistable.

I'm personally of the opinion that Bruising ought to be at least partially unresistable, so as to make the effect that much more relevant against "hard" targets such as AVs and GMs where it is most desperately needed, especially in Incarnate content.  Getting the "tuning" right on that mix is a different question, one that ought to be subject to iterative playtesting, but that's the basic notion that I have.

 

We can even argue over whether Bruising ought to be a Only $Target Hit kind of thing, or ought to be broadened out into more of a "Flanking" type of mechanic (rather than an explicit Bruising type) that is part of how Gauntlet works ... meaning whether or not the resistance debuffing ought to be seen as a product of being HIT or as a byproduct of being TAUNTED via punchvoke courtesy of Gauntlet.

Spoiler alert, I'm thinking that making the Gauntlet function as a PBAoE effect (as opposed to Target AoE via pseudopet delivery mechanism or ugly UGLY code hacking) triggered by use of secondary attack powers by Tankers might be the way to go ... and that the PBAoE effect could be "broadened" into being something of a Taunt plus Resistance Debuff style of mez/debuff delivery concept.  The mez would be the Taunt, while the debuff would be the Resistance debuff, all rolled into the same package.  I'd even go so far as to advise that the Resistance debuff include not only lowering resistance to all of the 8 basic damage types (including Psionic, but not UNTYPED) but also debuffing Resistance against mez effects, thereby helping to increase their duration (and therefore their potential to stack "deeper" for increased total MAG through repeated casting).

 

And then, if you're going to do all that ... instead of what's on proposal here ... I'm thinking it would be a good idea to include those Resistance (ALL!!) debuffing effects into the ranged Tanker Taunt power in each secondary so that you can apply those same "flanking" debuffs at a distance while drawing $Targets towards you (by getting and holding their attention via Taunt and Range debuffing) ... and if those debuffs all STACK from different powers (up to a limit) and from different casters (NO LIMIT) then you'll have a very different design concept that isn't stepping on the toes of either Scrappers or Brutes or even Defenders/Controllers ... because ... the Tanker "brings something to the party" that no one else can "do" in quite the same way.

 

 

 

Anyone and everyone can "bring damage" to the party.

Scrappers and Brutes just happen to do that "better than other archetypes" ... as do Blasters (when they don't pull aggro for doing it).

 

But being a Force Multiplier?

That's something that I'm of the decided opinion that Tankers OUGHT TO be doing and allowed(!) to be doing.

The fact that Tankers HAVEN'T been allowed to function as force multipliers, except as aggro magnets (so others can do their things in relative safety), is an inherent game mechanical design flaw that has never been properly addressed.

 

In other words, I'm of the opinion that Tankers ought to make EVERYONE AROUND THEM (including themselves!) BETTER at whatever they do ... rather than just getting a buff to (self only) melee damage at the expense of everyone else that they team up with.

 

 

 

But obviously I'm in the minority when it comes to holding that opinion/perspective.

Far more people just want to play MOAR DAKKA! and watch Big Numbers™ smoke off their $Targets on screen, because that feeds their power trip fantasies so much more easily.

 

 

 

Quote

 

"Is the max deeps side stronger?"

"No! No. Noooo ... quicker, easier more seductive.  The dark game designs are they."

"But how will I know the good game design from the bad?"

"You will KNOW ... when only the damage YOU deal matters ... and your Team, does not ... when they only exist to empower YOU, while you do nothing to empower them."

 

 

[Captain Powerhouse]

3 hours ago, Auroxis said:

Or "If you wanna keep having the best attack chain".

That would be true with absolutely any change. Heck, the addition of a new invention set could easily change the “having the best attack chain” definition (plus there is never a perfect attack chain in this game, there is always a better situational chain given endless variables.)

[skoryy]

9 hours ago, Vanden said:

With this change, Tankers and Brutes will have virtually identical defense and damage caps. Brutes will more easily push themselves closer to their damage cap, while Tankers will more easily push themselves to their defensive caps.

Going with a basic 100% damage buff...

 

Tanks: 0.95 * (1 + 1) = 1.9

Brutes: 0.75 * (1 + 1 + (0 ~ 2)) = 1.5 ~ 3

 

... Oh.

 

OK, never mind, I've been doing the math wrong for years.  And never had the Brute's Fury proc until HC.  Good gravy, brutes can still be still stupid OP.

 

I still think Bruising should still be a thing in some form instead of a straight DPS buff, but I don't think these are horribad changes now.

Edited September 14, 2019 by skoryy

[Robotech_Master]

3 hours ago, Auroxis said:

I'm definitely not ecstatic to have the "opportunity" to go through 30 minutes of respeccing and re-arranging my power tray on most of my tankers.

 

Nor am I ecstatic to have a -res debuff power taken away from my character.

My Tanker took both the first two attacks anyway.

 

I'm gonna want to respec to change what order I took those powers in? Which might maybe affect me if I exemplared down to do the level 5 content arcs?

 

Meh.

[Captain Citadel]

I really think we need to rework Bruising rather than get rid of it. Make it the defining characteristic between Tankers and Brutes. By all means, reduce the vast gulf between Tankers and Brutes as far as DPS, but in exchange for doing slightly less damage on a Tanker, use Bruising to emphasize their team support capabilities. Trade slightly less individual damage for greater team damage, use Bruising as a flanking debuff.

[Myrmidon]

7 hours ago, Vanden said:

It doesn’t dramatically change the entire AT to give it bigger AoEs and a little higher base damage. It still plays exactly the same and brings the same thing to a team that it always has.

 

Actually, it brings much more aggro control to the team, which “should” satisfy the Role people once they have at least tried it.

[Profit]

1 hour ago, Redlynne said:

But being a Force Multiplier?

That's something that I'm of the decided opinion that Tankers OUGHT TO be doing and allowed(!) to be doing.

The fact that Tankers HAVEN'T been allowed to function as force multipliers, except as aggro magnets (so others can do their things in relative safety), is an inherent game mechanical design flaw that has never been properly addressed.

You realize that having a higher damage cap allows tanks to be a force receiver on teams while making additional tanker 'force receivers' not be irrelevant due to the insanely low damage cap right?

[Auroxis]

1 hour ago, Captain Powerhouse said:

That would be true with absolutely any change. Heck, the addition of a new invention set could easily change the “having the best attack chain” definition (plus there is never a perfect attack chain in this game, there is always a better situational chain given endless variables.)

It wasn't true with your latest change to snipes. You could have gone ahead with making ToHit no longer affect snipes at all, but you chose not to and made it scale damage a bit. As a result, no one had to respec (outside of PvP'ers) and there was minimal discomfort.

 

The point is to avoid negatively affecting players, and keeping T1/T2 powers as they are and simply buffing Bruising does just that. Pull back some of the damage buffs to balance it out and keep the AoE buffs.

[Cutter]

So this may have been brought up before (either here or in other threads), so apologies if it's retrod ground. Since the bulk of comparisons are between Tanker and Brute:

Quote

 The Tanker can take it and dish it out all at once. The Tanker primarily can absorb vast amounts of damage, and hold his own in a fist fight. But the Tanker lacks any long range punch. The Tanker would prefer just to charge straight ahead anyway.

Quote

 Brutes live to fight, and as a Brute you revel in hand-to-hand combat. With strong offensive power sets to inflict pain and impressive defenses to take it, you're the best there is in a straight fight. Protracted battles only makes you mad, and the madder you get, the more damaging your attacks become. You do lack ranged attacks, which could leave you vulnerable to hit and run tactics without some allies to cover you.

Looking at the descriptions of the ATs in-game, I'd ask a few questions:

1. Do these descriptions accurately describe the way the ATs play?
2. Do these descriptions match players' expectations of the way the ATs play?
3. Do these descriptions identify clearly defined roles for each AT?
4. As a follow up to that, are the defined roles meaningfully distinct?
5. Do the numbers accurately represent the differences in build performance?
6. If there is a disconnect anywhere, how do we resolve it? Change AT to match the description/numbers, or change the description/numbers to match the AT?
7. Finally, once the answers to these questions are determined, do the proposed changes validate the description, player expectation and defined role of the Tanker, in a way that makes it meaningfully distinct from the Brute?

[Snakebit]

Yo, 

 

Could a moderator go through this thread and remove all the non-feedback posts to a different discussion thread? I'd really like to see the results of the play, not a bunch of dissertations on the tank/brute/scrapper relationship or why bruising is better/worse? 

[Heraclea]

My purely subjective impressions from playing on Pineapple solo.

 

Damage is a bit better but hardly excessive.  I made an uber Heraclea with the same powers.  This one has all the ATOs, six tier 4 incarnate powers, and so forth. 

 

Hitting multiple mobs with Shadow Maul was slightly easier - on Live I treat it as a single target attack that occasionally gets lucky.  It still benefits from corner pulling.  I  wouldn't notice endurance improvements because Heraclea on Live has Conserve Power, Physical Protection, one of every Recovery unique, and two Performance Shifters. 

 

Damage did not seem all that larger.  and hardly seemed excessive.  Clearing mobs on theRoman wall was not noticeably faster when Judgment was down.  Still did not have the effective damage throughput to beat down Imperious, who appeared as an enemy in an AE story I played. 

[Mr. Igneous]

15 hours ago, Profit said:

My arch/nin is pretty close...

 

Wow...this post shocked me.  IO set bonuses need to be AT specific if this kind of power creep is available.  A blaster should not be this durable.  You don't need tanks at all if the whole team has stats like these.  Almost anyone can take a hit and survive.  I am feeling very useless right now looking at this.  There are some SOd tanks that don't have stats this good.  919 percent Regen too.  The only thing lacking here is Hit Points to take an alpha strike.  Whole thing needs to be looked at, each AT.  Tanks should always be the most durable with the best aggro control.  A blaster should not be able to achieve this level of defensive stats at all.  Especially with the melt your face offensive power that they have.  Game is broken.  Everyone seems to be able to Solo just about everything without needing a tank, or groups not even needing a tank to function at all.  Max defense per AT needs a look at with set bonuses.  Caps for each AT should be looked at. Is it possible to cap defense and resistance per AT with the game engine?  This blaster does not look like a squishie at all.  The cap for Blaster resist and defense should be no more than half that of a Tank!  This blaster has Brute level defense and resists of a Brute in slotted Granite armor. Does that seem right to anybody?  It does not to me.  Wait it is better than a Brute in Granite, this blaster has 72.9% Psionic resistance!!

Edited September 14, 2019 by Mr. Igneous

[Auroxis]

10 minutes ago, Heraclea said:

My purely subjective impressions from playing on Pineapple solo.

 

Damage is a bit better but hardly excessive.  I made an uber Heraclea with the same powers.  This one has all the ATOs, six tier 4 incarnate powers, and so forth. 

 

Hitting multiple mobs with Shadow Maul was slightly easier - on Live I treat it as a single target attack that occasionally gets lucky.  It still benefits from corner pulling.  I  wouldn't notice endurance improvements because Heraclea on Live has Conserve Power, Physical Protection, one of every Recovery unique, and two Performance Shifters. 

 

Damage did not seem all that larger.  and hardly seemed excessive.  Clearing mobs on theRoman wall was not noticeably faster when Judgment was down.  Still did not have the effective damage throughput to beat down Imperious, who appeared as an enemy in an AE story I played. 

Your Inv/DM is probably the least impacted by these changes, no damage aura or AoE's besides Soul Drain and Shadow Maul. Does your build have Cross Punch? I haven't tested it with the new patch yet and it should be pretty good.

 

I tried Bio/Staff on some +4 carnies. The AoE is massive, fairly fast at clearing the packs (unless i get darkest night spammed which floors my ToHit) but in a 1v1 boss fight it's about as slow as it was before. I also wanted to pylon test it, but since the pylons are level 54 now i can't compare my results with anything.

Edited September 14, 2019 by Auroxis