Focused Feedback: Tank Updates

[Haijinx]

3 minutes ago, Demon Shell said:

GIVE PEACEBRINGERS A DAMAGE/TAUNT AURA!

 

to their Dwarf form, Warshades too

[Demon Shell]

8 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

to their Dwarf form, Warshades too

You let me use it in Human form and you can do whatever you want with it.

[naraganeun]

Loving these changes to Taunt. Big radius, large mob cap and the -range debuff makes me feel like a real tank, clumping up mobs to help my teammates with small radius aoes.

[Haijinx]

8 minutes ago, Demon Shell said:

You let me use it in Human form and you can do whatever you want with it.

maybe just make it an auto power for Dwarfs, and put it into one of the Armor toggles for the Human form. 

 

Well auto in the sense that its part of the Dwarf Toggle. 

Edited September 11, 2019 by Haijinx

[MechaMarshmallow]

I'm about to go to bed so I can't test this right now, but I want to call attention to Rending Flurry in Savage Melee real quick.

 

Currently Rending Flurry has an 8 ft radius and a 15 ft radius when empowered by blood frenzy. These changes would make that a 16 ft radius and 15 ft when empowered.

 

I don't know of a convenient way to see the details of the blood frenzy version of the power in-game, but please remember to change the blood frenzy version to 10 ft like foot stomp or something, so it's doubled and doesn't end up smaller than the basic version!

[Auroxis]

6 hours ago, Captain Powerhouse said:

Brutes contribute to the issue but are not the only issue. The game has evolved and made tanking itself less relevant. The playerbase in this game will allow a brawl-only-concept build to join groups and get to 50, but truth is the tanker is at a disadvantage.

It isn't even remotely as big of a disadvantage that'd call for such changes.

 

6 hours ago, Captain Powerhouse said:

 

Over the years many things have been considered, but they all eventually change the way the archetype plays too much. A primary goal of this change is to improve tankers in a way they can log into the game without reading any patch note and play exactly the same. 

You say that, but:

 

1. You can add support passives to Tanker without changing the way it plays.

 

2. You removed Bruising which fundamentally changes the way the tanker plays by making it less of a support, while also changing attack chains.

 

3. You massively buffed AoE's radius/arc/target caps which makes the Tanker's role of being an aggro magnet more of a passive one than an active one. Might be an improvement, but it still changes how the class is played.

 

6 hours ago, Captain Powerhouse said:

 

Turning the tanker into buffers, or controllers, or any other team support role, would be too big of a change (ironically I myself suggested such an approach to the live team almost a decade ago, I got a very similar reply, and I have come to agree with that reply.)

 

A big chunk of tankers seem to enjoy leveraging herding foes in a way only their survivability allows (pre-IOs) so it feels, to me, focusing on this target cap and area increases puts more focus on a way a large number of players already were optimizing the archetype towards.

There are lots of ways to make tankers more team-support centric without changing the way they play. And yes, Tankers enjoy herding and having all the attention on them, but making their AoE's simply hit more targets is unnecessary power creep since it puts the squishier Brutes to shame, especially once you add the damage buffs and damage caps on top of it. You wanna enhance their herd and taunt aspect, you can do that without buffing their effective damage output. It seems to me you went way overboard in buffing their effective AoE damage under the guise of aggro management, which could have been addressed in other ways. You also removed Bruising (instead of giving it a well-needed buff) which takes away the team support aspect many rolled the character for.

 

It seems you already invested a lot of time and effort into it, so I expect most of the changes to remain. All I can do is bargain for more team support (leadership-style passives and aggro management) and less Brute levels of damage.

[summers]

What happens to procs with the +range buff? Is it like global recharge which doesn't affect their proc rate, and it could turn Tankers into AOE proc monsters?

[nihilii]

3 hours ago, Haijinx said:

Dark Armor will be amazing .. 

 

16 foot fear, 16 foot Stun, 16 foot Damage aura.  

 

Pair it with Dark melee for that 20 foot Soul Drain, and buffed Shadow Maul. 

 

Fun. 

Oh my.

Yeah, combined with SS, as much as I like the changes... We might end up with something broken.

Hand Clap with KB-to-KD IO + OG = perma mezzing bosses in a 16 feet radius.

Given that blaster AoE holds got a nerf (right?) because they were too good compared to controllers...
...and in this case, you get Tanker defenses on top...
...*and* you get perma Build Up with no crash in the new Rage, boosting your 0.95 scale damage.

If this hits Live as is, I'm rolling a DA/SS instantly. Already got the Brute version and it's amazing as is, regardless of forum controversies regarding SS performance.

At the same time, I hope no tanker buff will be held back because of SS specifically.

Edited September 11, 2019 by nihilii

[Vanden]

1 hour ago, Auroxis said:

You removed Bruising which fundamentally changes the way the tanker plays by making it less of a support, while also changing attack chains.

For the better! Forcing Tankers to use their weakest, most useless attacks to contribute in a team environment was the opposite of fun, and as Captain Powerhouse pointed out, barely improved the Tanker's personal DPS overall.

[Auroxis]

22 minutes ago, Vanden said:

For the better! Forcing Tankers to use their weakest, most useless attacks to contribute in a team environment was the opposite of fun, and as Captain Powerhouse pointed out, barely improved the Tanker's personal DPS overall.

Well, fun is subjective. I don't mind the attack being weak if it has a nice debuff attached to it, I like having a 3rd useful single-target attack after Haymaker and Knockout Blow, and in Titan Weapons Defensive Sweep was part of my attack chain which gave me bruising and a melee/smashing softcap.

Edited September 11, 2019 by Auroxis

[Warlawk]

Bruising won't be missed at all by me.

An increase in aggro cap would be amazing, but I'm not sure if that's something that can be adjuster on a per-AT basis.

Differentiation of ATs at high level incarnate play is already gone. Everyone is pretty much capped to everything and immune to all mez effects all the time. While leveling, you will still see very distinct identity differences between tanks and brutes with the different base numbers in armor sets and different rate of acquisition for powers since primary and secondary are swapped.

 

These changes would shake up the meta, it would give people reason to actually consider tankers for general play instead of the only reason to make one being because you want a Tanker. I've felt like I *should* roll a tanker at some point since I started playing, but I don't think I've ever played one past level 10. These changes make me excited about having them go live so I can try out some tanker builds.

 

There is no Holy Trinity in CoH (for 99% of content) and there hasn't been a need for the tank role (outside of iTrials and the like) since IO sets have been a thing, even more so with the addition of Incarnates. Arguing that tanks shouldn't do damage and that's not their role is just ridiculous. Everyone knows Brutes can be very close to tank level for durability and the main complaint seems to be that this would make tanks brute-like. In a team with full buffs, everyone is capped on all stats anyways so the primary change will be to casual group, small group and solo play and in all those situations these changes will make the Tanker a more valuable party member without fundamentally changing the class fantasy or playstyle in any meaningful way. In short, the primary argument that I've seen in reading through the thread is "This is new and I don't like it!"

 

If anything, the increased AOE sizes and caps will give tankers a more defined role in spreading debuffs via secondary effects and clearing chaff that is taunted onto the tanker by the wide reaching AoE and I think that's fantastic.

4 hours ago, 12thPower said:

The only suggestion I have is to apply the Cone/AOE buffs to all such powers and cap them at a maximum rather than blocking some powers from being buffed entirely. It feels odd that a 90 degree cone is now wider than a 100 degree cone. Just cap them both at 180.

 

Seconding this!

 

it would also be great to see cones revisited across all ATs, most of them are mediocre at absolute best and often pretty terrible.

 

EDIT: I just wanted to add that in most situations this will put tanks a bit behind brutes for damage, which is perfect but it will also let them reach their defensive goals with less build resources devoted to it which increases build diversity in pool and APP picks. Brutes wanting to build strong defense take Fighting, Leadership, Speed (hasten) and Jumping. Every build pretty much needs those things to be sturdy, it gets pretty stale. These changes would allow tankers some diversity in those secondary picks which would allow them the opportunity to differentiate themselves further from Brute builds.

Edited September 11, 2019 by Warlawk

[Voldine]

8 hours ago, 5haggy said:

One of the stellar attractions of this game is that it has the old-school 'trinity' feel, DPS/tank/healer and not the modern 'everyone is a DPS' bullshit.

There are no words to describe how completely STUPID this statement is considering CoH was the first game to ever say 'FUCK THE TRINITY!' by making content in such a way that everyone could solo effectively and every team composition can complete content. (Itrials aside)

 

8 Controllers? Can complete any content in the game. No tank or DPS needed.

8 Blasters? Can complete anything in the game. No tank or support (Heelor) needed.

8 Scrappers? Can complete anything in the game. No tank or support needed.

8 Defenders? Can complete anything in the game. No DPS or tank needed.

8 Tankers? Can complete anything in the game. No DPS or support needed.

8 Masterminds? Can complete anything in the game.

8 Corruptors? Can complete anything in the game. No tank needed.

8 Dominators? Can complete anything in the game. No support needed.

8 Brutes? Can complete anything in the game. No support needed.

8 Stalkers? Can complete anything in the game. No support needed.

 

8 Soldiers? Will STOMP anything in the game without being touched.

8 Widows? See Soldiers.

8 Kheldians? Something tells me voids/quantums aren't going to be much of a problem.

 

8 Sentinels? Things are gonna die too fast for their defensive gaps to matter.

 

CoH is a NON-TRINITY game, and ALWAYS has been. Here's a shoehorn, should help alleviate your back pain.

[Myrmidon]

6 hours ago, Captain Powerhouse said:

 

Also as mentioned before: got plans to offer punchy versions of those weapon attacks.

 

That’s another thing that can go live yesterday!

[Haijinx]

I'm not so sure about the 8 Kheldians though, lol.  

[Parabola]

6 hours ago, Captain Powerhouse said:

Also as mentioned before: got plans to offer punchy versions of those weapon attacks.

I don't suppose this could work the other way with swordy versions of punchy attacks too? I'd love to do a fire melee/shield of some description that used sword animations for all it's attacks.

 

In general these proposed changes are really something. If your aim is to get people to roll less brutes and more tankers I imagine this will certainly do it. I have a couple of brutes that would be immediately re-rolled into tanks if this hit live. My current Elec/DA project for one. I imagine tanks would become the default AT for DA overall - more end, bigger radius on auras and still the bigger defence/resistance numbers. My ice/ice brute too - there will be no contest.

 

Is there any chance of a buff to the taunt in rttc though? I have a concept that really needs to be stone melee/willpower and fits as a tank but the weak taunt aura really puts me off.

[Rooks]

24 minutes ago, parabola said:

I don't suppose this could work the other way with swordy versions of punchy attacks too? I'd love to do a fire melee/shield of some description that used sword animations for all it's attacks.

 

In general these proposed changes are really something. If your aim is to get people to roll less brutes and more tankers I imagine this will certainly do it. I have a couple of brutes that would be immediately re-rolled into tanks if this hit live. My current Elec/DA project for one. I imagine tanks would become the default AT for DA overall - more end, bigger radius on auras and still the bigger defence/resistance numbers. My ice/ice brute too - there will be no contest.

 

Is there any chance of a buff to the taunt in rttc though? I have a concept that really needs to be stone melee/willpower and fits as a tank but the weak taunt aura really puts me off.

I've found putting a taunt enhancement in usually does the trick for most auras. I dunno if that's just a placebo lol, but I never seemed to have problems keeping agro back in the day

[oldskool]

3 hours ago, nihilii said:

Oh my.

Yeah, combined with SS, as much as I like the changes... We might end up with something broken.

Hand Clap with KB-to-KD IO + OG = perma mezzing bosses in a 16 feet radius.

Given that blaster AoE holds got a nerf (right?) because they were too good compared to controllers...
...and in this case, you get Tanker defenses on top...
...*and* you get perma Build Up with no crash in the new Rage, boosting your 0.95 scale damage.

If this hits Live as is, I'm rolling a DA/SS instantly. Already got the Brute version and it's amazing as is, regardless of forum controversies regarding SS performance.

At the same time, I hope no tanker buff will be held back because of SS specifically.

FOOT STOMP -> HAND CLAP

FOOT STOMP -> HAND CLAP

 

"Buddy, you're a boy, make a big noise

Playing in the street, gonna be a big man SOMEDAY

You got MUD on your FACE, you big DISGRACE

Kicking your can all over the place, singin'

 

We will, we will rock you

We will, we will rock you"

 

FOOT STOMP -> HAND CLAP

FOOT STOMP -> HAND CLAP

😄

 

Couldn't help myself!!

Anyway, so far I love these changes, and I'm very tempted to consider rolling Dark Armor/Dark Melee as a Tanker on these changes.  I was already on the fence about it, but this would seal the deal. 

I for one, welcome our new Tanker overlords (been long overdue).

[Twilight Singer]

I really don't believe Tankers need damage boosting to be comparable to Brutes. Damage is not a Tanker's job. A Tanker's job is CONTROL. Any damage done in the aid of that is a bonus, frankly. As such, I'm pretty much against such major changes in damage scaling or increasing the cap.
What I'm very much in favour of is increasing those range/radius and target caps. This might make Tanker play a little more passive if gathering mobs becomes easier, but it's not going to fundamentally alter the AT as much as huge damage overhauls will. 

The endurance increase is great, makes sense, keeps Tankers doing what they do for longer, helps against saps. The AE punchvokes will also make a big difference, on board with that.

 

13 hours ago, Leandro said:

 

• To improve Tanker AoE capability during level up progression, the following powers had their acquisition levels changed:
  • Stone Melee > Tremor = 20, Fault = 35

 

Dead against this, however. That's a nerf to Stone Melee in every way; Fault's control is what gives Stone/ Tankers a unique edge early on. Don't need the damage, do need mobs to flop about like fish and not know what hit them.

[Leogunner]

I'm sure I'm in the minority here, but I feel the endurance boost is too gracious.  It was to make up for their slower defeat speed but coupled with the other changes to boost their damage mods and their effective target cap, do they really kill so much slower than, say, a Defender or equivalent solo Brute that necessitates such a bonus?  As much as I dislike running out of END or getting drained by debuffs, that's kind of one aspect of the game that affects tactics, power choices and build slotting.  I was also against inherent Fitness as I saw the pool as an character aspect one can choose to differentiate builds but I got over it.  I just don't want to remove the need to manage endurance for two ATs (they already did for Blasters, but I can live with that being an aspect of Blasters...they just have UNLIMITED POWAH!!).

 

Not gonna lie, I'm a bit scared.  Primarily because min/maxers gonna min/max.  My Shield/DM is very fun.  I want all the dark powers + spring attack and have him bull-rush mobs like he was imagined to do while fisting a mob of 5 guys with his Shadow Maul...but that's hardly game breaking.  But pairing AoE sets with AoE sets and it's bound to get ridiculous.  I was actually hoping for a more insular set approach to the changes, i.e. sets without much AoE or slower AoEs would have different adjustments made vs a set with many and fast AoEs with potent effects.

 

But I'm certain people are having lots of fun with the mass of AoEs and I don't want it to leave.  If anything has to be reverted, I'd vote for putting Tanker back at 0.8 melee (keep the damage buff cap tho) and put Bruising back in (for those that like it and so the tier1-now-2 power can be a little more attractive).

 

NOTE: this is only coming from my short time playing a lvl 28 Shield/DM as I'm at a hotel playing with a basic mouse and this wretched feather-feedback built in keyboard.  I want to gauge the effective feel of it vs some of my Stalkers, basically the polar opposite to new-Tanker. 

[ShardWarrior]

Liking the increase in target caps for Taunt and such. 

[Moka]

These tanker updates are PERFECT. This is exactly what tanker should have been all along.

[Replacement]

I am of two minds on these changes... I guess I'll say it like this:

 

While I agree that "becoming Brute" is not the solution, I do believe at least some damage increase is necessary.

 

I really want folks to keep in mind while they critique: damage is not binary.

 

There is a large difference between "you made them a dps" and "you made them less miserable for low man groups."

 

Of course, it's now up to us to determine where we landed on this scale.

[SchnauzerXL]

I just want to add that I prefer the Bruising method over replacing it for flat added damage.  If you wanted to up our damage more I would request that you instead add Bruising to all attacks, as right now only Titan Weapons gets the most out of it, since it has an AOE attack for its T1.  The reason for this is I like tankers not having as much damage as brutes, but providing utility to the whole group by applying -res to the villains.  

[dignition]

3 hours ago, Warlawk said:

In a team with full buffs, everyone is capped on all stats anyways so the primary change will be to casual group, small group and solo play and in all those situations these changes will make the Tanker a more valuable party member without fundamentally changing the class fantasy or playstyle in any meaningful way. In short, the primary argument that I've seen in reading through the thread is "This is new and I don't like it!"

This is my sentiment. However, I do think there are points to be made on both sides.

 

The old argument of "Tankers are just Brutes with less damage" has a bit of truth to it. Sure, gauntlet is better than punchvoke, but the Brute only has to work a tiny bit harder to hold aggro just as well. Sure, Tankers are still tankier while leveling up, but the vast majority of the playtime of a character is going to be at higher levels when it shows less and less.

 

Then there's the new argument of "these changes would just make Tankers into Brutes." If they have comparable damage output and the same level of protection, that makes a lot of sense.

 

I think the biggest point that I'm seeing, if boiling all of them down, is that Tankers need something unique to them that isn't directly related to damage or protection. Sure, Tankers shouldn't do as much damage as Brutes (and honestly should be hardier--that's more difficult to fix), but these aren't the terms on which we want to compare the two archetypes. The different archetypes in the game aren't unique because they do similar things but because they do things differently. My opinion is that it has to be some mechanic that you only see on Tankers, perhaps something that benefits team play more than solo play.

[Slothulu]

As someone whom has mained a Tank both live and again on homecoming I'm more than thrilled to see these changes, call me biased but heavens this would make leveling up much less of a slog. So the sooner I can see any of these changes make it over to live servers the happier I'll be.