Focused Feedback: Tank Updates for December 6, 2019

[ivanhedgehog]

So are the tank buffs going to happen?

[Myrmidon]

10 hours ago, ivanhedgehog said:

So are the tank buffs going to happen?

Patience, Highlander. The volunteer Devs have holidays and such to deal with just like we do. They will get here when they get here.

[siolfir]

4 minutes ago, Myrmidon said:

They will get here when they get here.

Soon™.

Not just for paid devs.

[gusthemole]

I suppose it's probably way too late to point out how grossly inferior the Invulnerability power "Dull Pain" is to virtually all the other powersets' alternatives. Healing Flames? It's up far more often. Earth's Embrace is similar. Dark Regeneration is FAR superior.

 

A base of something like six minutes for a power that is only a little better than a medium inspiration seems incredibly underwhelming.

 

I believe the current base timer is 6 minutes, totally unenhanced. With recharges and IO bonuses I'm guessing you can get reasonably it down to 2.25, maybe 2 minutes. Would it be completely unreasonable to lower the base recharge time by a full minute? With recharge enhancements etc, it seems that it would only change the practical limit of its recharge by about 15-20 seconds.

 

Unenhanced, that would be a tremendous QOL improvement for Invul/*. Enhanced and buffed to its practical limit, it would only be mildly more convenient than it currently is.

 

 

Edited December 19, 2019 by gusthemole

[Replacement]

This is pretty useless feedback because we could look at the changes and derive the same results, but all the same:

 

I built a level 30 shield/kin tanker and ran some radio missions with basic IOs.  In other words: a true-to-live experience for me.

 

It did not feel good.  It was boring.

 

As I mentioned, this was the expected result.  I only have 2 aoes (3-second animation Burst, and long-recharge Shield Charge), and we're currently under an Against All Odds nerf to boot.  I really wish I'd ran a different primary, but I'd been wanting to play with this combo.

 

Anyway, here's the real point of my post: of all the things from the previous builds, I realized it's the +max endurance that really made me feel different from other ATs and powerful.

 

Edited December 19, 2019 by Replacement

[oldskool]

1 hour ago, gusthemole said:

A base of something like six minutes for a power that is only a little better than a medium inspiration seems incredibly underwhelming.

Huh? 

Dull Pain, Earth's Embrace, and Hoarfrost all increase your maximum hit points for 120 seconds.  That is on top of the healing it grants.  The power isn't directly comparable to Healing Flames or Dark Regeneration or even medium inspirations.  None of those 3 alternative effects comes with a means of reaching the hit point cap while also restoring health.  

[DarknessEternal]

Dull Pain is a fantastic layered defense.  It provides a heal and maximum health.  Health regeneration is based on maximum health, so Dull Pain makes you heal faster.

 

Invulnerability is the king of layered defense, and Dull Pain is perfect for it.

[Infinitum]

4 minutes ago, DarknessEternal said:

Dull Pain is a fantastic layered defense.  It provides a heal and maximum health.  Health regeneration is based on maximum health, so Dull Pain makes you heal faster.

 

Invulnerability is the king of layered defense, and Dull Pain is perfect for it.

Dull pain is one of the pivotal powers on invul IMO.

[DarknessEternal]

See, we don't disagree on everything.

[Sovera]

The only problem lays if looking at Dull Pain as a heal, but on such a huge timer it can't be relied upon. The slight buff to regen from bumping the HP up is negligible and while the extra HP itself is a nice padding it still needs to be refilled.

[DarknessEternal]

33 minutes ago, Sovera said:

The only problem lays if looking at Dull Pain as a heal, but on such a huge timer it can't be relied upon. The slight buff to regen from bumping the HP up is negligible and while the extra HP itself is a nice padding it still needs to be refilled.

It refills exactly the same way as anything else refills it.  All heals in CoX are % based.  Dull Pain makes all healing better because you have a larger max hp.

[Haijinx]

Really depends on how often you need a heal.

 

On an invul you have lots of resistance and good defense, so its not that often.  Dull pain works great.  And of course it means the team can heal you to fill those extra hp.

 

On a Regen, the extra Regen for more hp matters a lot more since they have a big regen bonus.  Plus they also have a normal self heal.

 

 

[Myrmidon]

3 hours ago, Replacement said:

 

Anyway, here's the real point of my post: of all the things from the previous builds, I realized it's the +max endurance that really made me feel different from other ATs and powerful.

It definitely made Dark Armor feel less of a slog in the lower levels that I tested and I wouldn’t complain if it stayed, however, there really should be a +End pass for all ATs instead of just Tankers.

Edited December 19, 2019 by Myrmidon

[ironjoe]

It's been a busy month and I haven't had a big opportunity to do some testing. I got a good chance last night and I have been pretty positive about the changes until this last iteration. My main is a SD/SS Tank and I have a carbon copy version on test. This latest change has been a huge nerf to that powerset.

 

On that tank I have Assault + Against All Odds + Rage.

On live with +1 mobs I have 153% damage bonus.

On beta with +1 mobs I have 129% damage bonus.

 

This translates to lower damage with single targets and even large groups. Making the same size groups take longer to defeat. I need to make a Brute to compare but I think with the current buffs to Brutes on teams I would do better rerolling as a Brute on live if the current changes went live to be a better tank. I really prefer the previous iteration as it actually provided a buff splitting the difference with Brutes.

[KelvinKole]

They are rolling back the nerf to +damage modifiers. You'll be a good shape. 

[Captain Powerhouse]

17 hours ago, DarknessEternal said:

It refills exactly the same way as anything else refills it.  All heals in CoX are % based.  Dull Pain makes all healing better because you have a larger max hp.

This is very out of topic but: This is not true. Self Healing in CoH is generally setup as a percentage of your base HP. Heal-other powers are a lot more arbitrary, with Power X simply healing everyone for Y points of damage.

 

Dull Pain is a powerful mitigation ability, but it does not make healing any more powerful. In fact, it mathematically, it makes any power that increases or decreases your HP (not max HP) technically weaker. This means that an attack that used to heal you for 25% might heal you for 17% (just an example) but it also means an attack that would had hurt you for 50% your health now hurts you only for 35% of your health.

Regeneration “increases” with +MaxHP but direct heals don’t. 
 

You can think of +MaxHP as a sort of resistance to all damage and heals that works on a curve. Basically:

 

Final damage = damage / (1+ MaxHP%)

 

(the above is drastically simplified because I’m on a phone right now.)

 

 

[Ukase]

22 hours ago, DarknessEternal said:

Dull Pain is a fantastic layered defense.  It provides a heal and maximum health.  Health regeneration is based on maximum health, so Dull Pain makes you heal faster.

 

Invulnerability is the king of layered defense, and Dull Pain is perfect for it.

I'm not the most knowledgeable about tanks, but I'd have to agree. My tank is so sturdy, I really only use it when tanking hamidon. It's really kind of pointless at 50, except in a couple of iTrials and in the lower levels. Use the IOs available and you should rarely even need it. 

Edited December 20, 2019 by Ukase
I can't spell well and I type even worse.

[Gobbledigook]

You could think of Dull Pain as a heal, a damage absorb and a regeneration buff all in one.

[ironjoe]

7 hours ago, KelvinKole said:

They are rolling back the nerf to +damage modifiers. You'll be a good shape. 

 

Thank goodness. It sounds like it will go back to being a modest buff again then.

[Leogunner]

9 hours ago, ironjoe said:

It's been a busy month and I haven't had a big opportunity to do some testing. I got a good chance last night and I have been pretty positive about the changes until this last iteration. My main is a SD/SS Tank and I have a carbon copy version on test. This latest change has been a huge nerf to that powerset.

 

On that tank I have Assault + Against All Odds + Rage.

On live with +1 mobs I have 153% damage bonus.

On beta with +1 mobs I have 129% damage bonus.

 

This translates to lower damage with single targets and even large groups. Making the same size groups take longer to defeat. I need to make a Brute to compare but I think with the current buffs to Brutes on teams I would do better rerolling as a Brute on live if the current changes went live to be a better tank. I really prefer the previous iteration as it actually provided a buff splitting the difference with Brutes.

Are you taking into account the live melee damage modifier for Tanker is lower than the melee damage mod for Tanker on beta?

[summers]

I think the Tank changes are good, barring a few small tweaks here and there. I have my issues with them which I've expressed before, but it seems that this has gone so many times back for revision that I'd rather we get something than nothing. Don't let perfect get in the way of good, in other words.

 

I'd much rather put a version out that is 80% of the way there, and get onto other low hanging fruit that desperately need buffs which won't be controversial and cause 50 pages of debate.

[tidge]

On 12/19/2019 at 12:51 PM, gusthemole said:

I suppose it's probably way too late to point out how grossly inferior the Invulnerability power "Dull Pain" is to virtually all the other powersets' alternatives. Healing Flames? It's up far more often. Earth's Embrace is similar. Dark Regeneration is FAR superior.

 

A base of something like six minutes for a power that is only a little better than a medium inspiration seems incredibly underwhelming.

Add my voice to the chorus of "wha?".  On an Invulnerability Tanker the only way this could be disappointing is if you take it ASAP and think of it as nothing more than a heal, or are in a headspace that thinks it should be 'perma' to keep your toon at max HP. I suppose depending on Enhancement sets level ranges, if you do a lot of exemplaring against particularly difficult content you can find the 'natural' Dull Pain underwhelming at low levels.

 

Once the rest of the primary is slotted, you may find that you don't even NEED Dull Pain, except in extreme circumstances. I feel like it's something I barely used after lvl 40, and then only against particular enemies able to hit me and cut through the defenses.

[Haijinx]

On 12/20/2019 at 3:26 PM, Gobbledegook said:

You could think of Dull Pain as a heal, a damage absorb and a regeneration buff all in one.

Well it is the worst self heal as far as heal over time.. If that's all you used it for ..

 

But within the sets that have it, its a great power.  

[Wavicle]

On 12/19/2019 at 9:51 AM, gusthemole said:

I suppose it's probably way too late to point out how grossly inferior the Invulnerability power "Dull Pain" is to virtually all the other powersets' alternatives. Healing Flames? It's up far more often. Earth's Embrace is similar. Dark Regeneration is FAR superior.

 

A base of something like six minutes for a power that is only a little better than a medium inspiration seems incredibly underwhelming.

 

I believe the current base timer is 6 minutes, totally unenhanced. With recharges and IO bonuses I'm guessing you can get reasonably it down to 2.25, maybe 2 minutes. Would it be completely unreasonable to lower the base recharge time by a full minute? With recharge enhancements etc, it seems that it would only change the practical limit of its recharge by about 15-20 seconds.

 

Unenhanced, that would be a tremendous QOL improvement for Invul/*. Enhanced and buffed to its practical limit, it would only be mildly more convenient than it currently is.

 

 

Dull Pain is a powerful +HP buff.  The heal is only a small part of the power.  Comparing to heals without +HP is wrong.  Comparing it to Earth's Embrace is fine, and you'll notice they are very, very similar.

Calling it little better than a medium inspiration is just flat wrong.  No inspiration gives +HP, let alone a Permaable effect.

Again, with current stats and with a fairly typical lvl 50 build this is a perma huge HP buff.  It absolutely in no way needs to be buffed.

[Haijinx]

Its also a good place to put healing IOs in invul.  

 

For regen that matters less, but regen really needs as much hp as it can get.