CoH must have sucked

[DougGraves]

I have been soloing a bit lately and noticed how I use my bonus powers like black wand into my 20's.  I cannot remember what it was like playing with just brawl and your powerset attacks but it must have been painfully slow.

 

I am generally opposed to making things easier, but I would not go back to playing without those extra attacks at lower levels.

[biostem]

4 minutes ago, DougGraves said:

I have been soloing a bit lately and noticed how I use my bonus powers like black wand into my 20's.  I cannot remember what it was like playing with just brawl and your powerset attacks but it must have been painfully slow.

 

I am generally opposed to making things easier, but I would not go back to playing without those extra attacks at lower levels.

Can you give us an idea of your AT and powersets/power picks, because this isn't my recollection at all?  Especially for blasters or other ATs that have more "active" secondaries, there is always some power ready to use...

[Crowcus Pocus]

In a way, it made your thirst for progression even bigger (and more rewarding). Also, having limited respecs would make you think twice about your power picks and slotting.

 

So, no. CoH never sucked. In fact, I miss the pre-IO days quite a bit.

[Fan Mail]

Playing a Controller on Live solo before they had vet rewards at early levels was rough, IMO.  It's why I didn't have one that made it past level 20 until probably Issue 10 or maybe later.   Talk about a slog.

Edited December 7, 2019 by tafilr

[Riverdusk]

Don't forget no double xp either (except for the rare "Double xp weekend" events) and no travel power until level 14.  I do kind of miss the double xp weekends and crowds that would draw, and the fun of the marathon play sessions during those weekends.  Didn't help my sleep schedule though.

 

It is nice to have extra xp on demand now (for those characters I want it on), but at the same time it makes it less special.

 

 

[Vorlonagent]

1 hour ago, DougGraves said:

I have been soloing a bit lately and noticed how I use my bonus powers like black wand into my 20's.  I cannot remember what it was like playing with just brawl and your powerset attacks but it must have been painfully slow.

 

I am generally opposed to making things easier, but I would not go back to playing without those extra attacks at lower levels.

I do not regularly use my PTW prestige temp powers once my regular powers fill in.

I do use the Ghost-Slaying Axe against CoT ghosts.  Also my melee characters use the Blackwand or Nemesis Staff to pull.  Very rarely other times.

I've played the classic game from 2005 to shutdown.  I kinda felt like we got spoiled near the end there with all the temp powers and stuff we could get.

[eknudson]

I remember getting my spines/dark scrapper to 20 and 22 before inherent stamina. THAT was a slog. Lots of time spent on a knee.

 

No early travel was worse without ninja run, and trying to navigate the old Hollows mission doors without a travel power caused a lot of deaths to pumicite but I quickly learned to get to Kings Row for that raptor pack almost first things out of the sewers!

 

Edit-- who designed the old Hollows and worse the old Faultline and thought "players will love this!"? And did that person get put in charge of too much of redside?

Edited December 7, 2019 by eknudson

[biostem]

17 minutes ago, eknudson said:

I remember getting my spines/dark scrapper to 20 and 22 before inherent stamina. THAT was a slog. Lots of time spent on a knee.

The times before getting stamina were tough, but slotting end reduction and not spamming your attacks as fast as possible taught you a bit of discipline.

 

18 minutes ago, eknudson said:

No early travel was worse without ninja run, and trying to navigate the old Hollows mission doors without a travel power caused a lot of deaths to pumicite but I quickly learned to get to Kings Row for that raptor pack almost first things out of the sewers!

Hurdle + CJ was a mainstay for me on many characters, (otherwise I'd take hover just to get over those few annoying obstacles).

 

19 minutes ago, eknudson said:

Edit-- who designed the old Hollows and worse the old Faultline and thought "players will love this!"? And did that person get put in charge of too much of redside?

For me, it was the sections of Perez Park with the dense tree cover that you couldn't jump or fly through...

[KelvinKole]

I don't know how I managed to fit stamina in by level 20 in the old days. Had to give up two power choices pre level 20 just to do it, and level 14 was a travel power. Must have had like six powers. 

[summers]

Let's be real, it had a horrific early game experience.

 

• No veteran powers
• No beginners luck
• No inherent fitness
• No Death from Below or double/rapid XP
• No early access to travel powers
• Disconnected transport systems (different coloured rail lines and ferries!)
• No Ouroboros and its portal
• TO's only

So you had very limited power selection, terribly accuracy and no endurance to speak of. Getting around was not easy either.

 

For some unbelievable reason, they made a new starter zone, Praetoria, which was riddled with even more difficult content. While the content was a lot of fun and filled with story, it was a terrible way to introduce new players to the game, especially when considering how little they knew of game mechanics.

[Fan Mail]

agreed summers

[merrypessimist]

3 hours ago, summers said:

 

 

For some unbelievable reason, they made a new starter zone, Praetoria, which was riddled with even more difficult content. While the content was a lot of fun and filled with story, it was a terrible way to introduce new players to the game, especially when considering how little they knew of game mechanics.

 

 

Praetoria's not so bad, and I love starting there.  That being said, I've also been playing City as long as it's existed and design builds ahead of time before actually rolling them.  With that it's a great place to play and the storytelling is excellent.  The actual gameplay assuming you're not a veteran is rather counter-intuitive.  

[Parabola]

It's funny really. I look back fondly at the old low level hollows and perez park experiences. It gave the hazard zones a real sense of danger, living up to their name. That sense of achievement at having simply managed to arrive at a mission was great. My hatred of igneous burns undimmed to this day!

[Lines]

The difficulty didn't seem to dissuade us from playing, so I dunno if the game sucked. It was significantly harder to level 1-20 back then than any content in game is today. In a way, I find that kinda sad.

 

I don't think difficulty necessarily equates to bad game design, though there were plenty of questionable decisions at launch. I think it took a lot of players trying things out to realise why some ideas and designs didn't mesh,. But I also think a lot of the newer conveniences are worse in terms of designing an RPG.

 

I remember playing as a young'un and having dreams of what was beyond the Hollows. Seeing names on the map like Skyway City and Boomtown filled my imagination. I thought there must be some Emerald City where the godlike level 50s with their unbelievable powers like flight and stamina would congregate. An Atlas Park for the elites. I think the prospect of having so much to explore was what kept me going.

 

I'd love to see Hazard Zones get hazardous again, in a way that rewards simply exploring them.

[Clave Dark 5]

1 hour ago, Lines said:

I'd love to see Hazard Zones get hazardous again, in a way that rewards simply exploring them.

I started too late to ever see any Perez Park sweeping, but just the other day wandered around in it with a 50 for the badges, and what a nice early map that is!  Maybe some areas should get stocked with "level-less" foes that will provide a reasonable fight to any hero or villain, like the Rikti during invasions.

[Jthowell1]

10 hours ago, biostem said:

 

For me, it was the sections of Perez Park with the dense tree cover that you couldn't jump or fly through...

This! God I hated running through with lower level characters in a maze of trees hoping I wouldn’t run into a big mob, lol.

[TyrantMikey]

11 hours ago, KelvinKole said:

I don't know how I managed to fit stamina in by level 20 in the old days. Had to give up two power choices pre level 20 just to do it, and level 14 was a travel power. Must have had like six powers. 

Oh god this brings back memories of crippling indecision.

 

Do I take the combat power that I need because my attack chain is incomplete, or Stamina, because I absolutely MUST have endurance to use any more powers?

 

 

[EmmySky]

41 minutes ago, TyrantMikey said:

Oh god this brings back memories of crippling indecision.

 

Do I take the combat power that I need because my attack chain is incomplete, or Stamina, because I absolutely MUST have endurance to use any more powers?

 

 

Or....should I take a travel power because I have to find some Mage in the Hollows or do I take an attack power because the aforementioned Mage probably wants me to beat someone up?

[Bill Z Bubba]

Inherent fitness was one of the better decisions the devs made.

 

But don't make me go back to hovering over the Hollows.

[Troo]

On 12/6/2019 at 4:06 PM, DougGraves said:

it must have been painfully slow.

It was slower, but only started to get annoying by the third or forth time through. By then, we'd figured it out and how to go faster. Soon it was super groups & new friends. 8-man teams dragging a couple lowbies, PL's and I remember egg missions. Good times.

 

We did have to earn things and it seemed to make them more appreciated. I kinda miss unlocks (I think). As Billz points out, taking the fitness pool on every build got repetitive. Travel powers at 14. Capes. Unlocking archetypes. There was a whole game level 40 and below. Did it suck - Not at all. It was successful and very re-playable. It's just a different game now.

 

Edited December 9, 2019 by Troo

[EmmySky]

My 50s have a ritual.  Train up and do enhancements.  Then run IP and FF icon missions (Steel too if they skipped it).  Then they get a snazzy new outfit (holiday themed right now).  I like that you can still unlock costume slots, and I like breezing through them at 50.  

[Outrider_01]

14 hours ago, summers said:

Let's be real, it had a horrific early game experience.

 

• No veteran powers
• No beginners luck
• No inherent fitness
• No Death from Below or double/rapid XP
• No early access to travel powers
• Disconnected transport systems (different coloured rail lines and ferries!)
• No Ouroboros and its portal
• TO's only

So you had very limited power selection, terribly accuracy and no endurance to speak of. Getting around was not easy either.

 

For some unbelievable reason, they made a new starter zone, Praetoria, which was riddled with even more difficult content. While the content was a lot of fun and filled with story, it was a terrible way to introduce new players to the game, especially when considering how little they knew of game mechanics.

LOL welcome to hard mode.

 

You might be one of those players that enjoy linear story lines where you are the all powerful chosen one (along with a few tens of thousands other players) from start to max cap.  My opinion, don't be insulted if I am wrong.

 

Vet powers are weak, not really required and seems to make people dependent on them; three are redundant.  Sure, early levels is nice but once you get a few attack powers they are useless.  And the draw animation kills it for me, only like Mu sands.

 

No inherent fitness.  Pros and Cons, can't have everything without a penalty, basically giving up several primary secondary powers.  Repercussions for you choices, some power sets like Assault Rife / Device you could of skipped easily for the fitness pool; like Ignite (burn patch, YAY NPC FEAR MODE!) and Time bomb (mini-nuke, with obscenely long set up time).  And cloaking device, laughable when they gave it the special crit for snipes cause it was a middle finger and the Turret was useless when it was stationary (still is when it floats, very situation except for big boss battles....cause you know auto fight pets break stealth when you toebomb).  As it is, without the fitness pool I am looking for power pics by the mid 20s and fucking tired of looking at the leadership pool.  YAY! Run toggles that kill that inherent bonus.

 

Double exp, didn't exist when I played.  Now debt that, that was hardcore (cause you know, badges).  Try 10 bubbles per level if you were having a hard time, cause you need it for badges.  So macho and manly....Good times, Good time. *sniff*

 

Travel power and Disconnected transport systems.  Game was designed in a linear fashion to keep you in a few zones at the early levels, who needs them?  When you hit 14, you where all over the place when the contacts sent you to another zone.  Didn't need a single transport line, most often it was only a zone away.  Don't know if you played EQ1, back in the day it took like 3-4 hours to cross the world by foot without a speed buff.

 

Ouroboros.  Again, short cuts cause nobody wants to spend up to 10 minutes to cross a zone or couple with their travel power.  So extremely fast short cuts then make travel powers redundant.

 

why the hate of TO?  Training Origins only lasted to until about mid teens, then the dual started dropping and could be bought, by 30 you were only using single origins..  Of course, back then you didn't make enough influence and were broke most of the time.  Only thing about enhancements was the fucking waste of Developer time comming up with names, should of just treated them like more powerful TO shared regardless of picked origin (for you character, not that it actually matter there) and level locked them.

 

When did you even start playing?  I started shortly after release.  Assault Rifle / Device, using Hasten to make Full Auto spray bullets as fast as possible.....llllaaaaaaggggg! When the numbers started floating, could kill a huge amount of baddies with no cap on cones.  Gotta thank Positron (pretty sure it was him), good old I4 comes along neutering everything so AR/Dev becomes the redheaded bitch child slapped around with that nice small limited cone (all others are AoE 16), longest animation time requiring line of sight instead of run in and boom, gives up the old endurance crash for that shorter recharge, oh the recharge is awesome when you have the most resisted damage type with a piddle of a crit chance compared to the sentinel version.  And ED came along, that Erectile Dysfunction Enhancement Diversification forcing a player to choose in a 1-1-1-3 most of the time for attacks; Acc/EndReduc/RechReduc/3 Damage.

 

Gotta say, dumbing down the game too attract the more simple minded is to just draw numbers to increase player account.  Game was made easier, not sure how it stacked up towards the end of Live but sounds like it was so easy it makes Minefield on Windows more challenging.  Homecoming, super stupid easy.

 

Don't get me wrong, I like things like Ninja Run but the rest...not so useful in my opinion and I still don't have enough options cause most power pools are kinda useless.

[Call Me Awesome]

It was a different game in the beginning and progression was considerably slower.  My first 50 took around 250 hours of playtime and was a bit faster than average for the time.

 

Tanks had no aggro cap and generally MUCH higher defenses and damage than today so they were able to herd up hundreds of enemies into a nice tight bunch and survive doing it... then kill them all quickly.  Blasters had no target cap and were able to eradicate that herd of hundreds of mobs with one Nuke.  Controllers were able to permanently lock down that entire herd so they were harmless while the rest of the team killed them.  Defenders buffs and debuffs were much stronger then as well.  Scrappers were basically the wild animals they are today with better defenses and better damage.  None of the other AT's existed yet... although Keldians were starting to appear with issue 3 (and you had to have a level 50 character to unlock the AT).

 

Endurance was generally more of an issue than it is today, builds were tighter because everyone needed the trinity of Hurdle/Health/Stamina by level 20.  The XP gain required from the mid 30's to 45 or so tended to bog down and it wasn't uncommon to run out of missions and have to rely on running teammate's arcs to gain XP... or simply power leveling.  Task forces did not exemplar players so you needed to be in the level range of a TF to run it... or be exempted by one of your lower level teammates and if they or you DC'd then you were kicked from the TF.

 

All that aside, this was a unique game environment with a great player base; and that player base was more than anything responsible for the game's success.  There were relatively few young players; most were in the 25-60 age range and most were friendly and fun to be with.  Yes, you had the occasional idiot as always but they were more noticed since they were so rare.  Inexperience was very common and lots of players made lots of mistakes but few were trying to cause problems.  Also there were very few elitist players and as long as your build choices didn't negatively impact the team nobody really cared.  Sure, we'd give advice if you asked but we didn't generally volunteer it unless it was a major issue like a level 40 who was always out of end and hadn't taken the Fitness pool.  If you pulled a bonehead and caused problems we'd ask you not to do it again and tell you why it was a bonehead and caused problems without carrying on about it.  If it was a continuing issue then we might have to reluctantly resort to /kick, but that was rare.  The one that really stands out to me was once we had a SG team with one PuG player who was an idiot, constantly pulling aggro and endangering the rest of us.  Then he starts hollering that we had to invite his buddy and since the team was full we'd have to kick someone to make room.  So we did, just as he yells "Not Me!"  We joked about that for years, and the team lead made himself an Axe tanker named Hatchet Man in honor of the occasion.

[FDR's Think Tank]

It was much easier to find a team back then. Since I have come back, most people on are Level 50 and doing incarnate. However, more people were willing to get into the early game content back then. By now, there is a hearty class of people who totally despise early game content. They are totally focused on leveling up and the game doesn't reward grinding the old way. Of course it feels different. It's the difference of farming with a hand tool or farming with a tractor.

 

Farmers gonna farm.

[Rathulfr]

The original Positron TF was a real challenge back in the day, before inherent Fitness.  It was a long, hard, slog.  And auto-exemplar/sidekick wasn't a thing, so you had to be careful about team composition, or else folks would out-level the TF and get kicked from it if they DC'ed (which happened a lot more back then on dial-up).